Auto Bailout Talks Collapse

[CarlaKay]

Amusing, yes. Accurate, of course not.

Again, you are WRONG.Good cartoons and satire are effective when they contain truth. This cartoon is dead on and that is why you do not understand the humor.

These partisan and hatefilled GOP senators are only looking out for their own and the GOP's self interests. What is good for the GOP is not good for the country. The claim that the talks broke down due to the UAW refusing to give concessions is simply spin by these partisan senators and have not basis in reality.

 

[minnie61650]

I've owned Chrysler and GM cars within the past 5 years and they all stunk!! Quality problems up the wazzooo! Have a Honda for three years with no issues.

You make junk cars and you go out of business.

Sorry about your car problems

We have never owned a auto that has not been made by the Detroit companies.

We have had good luck with with ours.

-------------------------------

Best cars and trucks for 2009
December 14, 2008

It's the season for lists. Not just Christmas shopping lists, but end of the year best car and truck awards lists.


Best redesigned vehicle
The 2009 Ford F-150 was named the best redesigned vehicle for 2009 by Kelley Blue Book

CNET tech car of the year
The tech Web site CNET will post the name of its winner the second week of the year.

The finalists and excerpts from the site on why the vehicles made the list:

2008 BMW M3 Convertible DCT

"The DCT, BMW's new dual-clutch transmission, is a tech standout."

2008 Infiniti EX35 Journey

"Driver aids that keep you from drifting out of your lane and a set of cameras that help you park in tight spaces."

2009 Dodge Ram 1500 Laramie

"Truck packs all the latest cabin tech, including a rear-seat entertainment system with satellite TV and hard drive-based navigation that shows traffic.

2009 Lincoln MKS

"A THX audio system, Sync MP3 player and phone integration, and Sirius Travel Link, which lets you see traffic, weather and gas prices on the navigation screen."

2009 Nissan GT-R

"An incredible package of performance tech that wrings amazing horsepower out of a six-cylinder engine."

International car and truck of the year
Presented by Road & Travel magazine Jan. 10 at the MGM Grand Detroit. The 2009 ceremony is also the debut of the Earth, Wind & Power Awards, which will honor the most environmentally friendly vehicles for Car and Truck of the Year. This differs from the North American Car and Truck of the Year, which will be named Jan. 11.

International car of the year

Dodge Challenger

Ford Flex

Nissan GT-R

International truck of the year

Dodge Ram 1500

Ford F-150

Subaru Forester

Urban Wheel Award finalists
On Wheels Media Inc., which produces African-Americans On Wheels, Latinos On Wheels and Asians On Wheels, will announce the winners Jan. 13 at the Detroit Opera House.

Urban car of the year finalists

Dodge Challenger

Hyundai Genesis

Volkswagen Jetta TDI

Urban truck of the year finalists

BMW X6

Dodge Ram

Ford Flex

2009 10 best engines winners
The 2009 list marks the 15th year that Ward's Automotive Group has tested and picked its best engines.

The winners and the vehicle they were tested in:

Audi AG: 2.0L TFSI turbocharged DOHC I4 (A4 Avant)

BMW AG: 3.0L turbocharged DOHC I6 (135i Coupe)

BMW AG: 3.0L DOHC I6 Turbodiesel (335d)

Chrysler LLC: 5.7L Hemi OHV V8 (Dodge Ram/Challenger R/T)

Ford Motor Co.: 2.5L DOHC I4 HEV (Escape Hybrid)

General Motors Corp.: 3.6L DOHC V6 (Cadillac CTS)

Honda Motor Co.: 3.5L SOHC V6 (Accord Coupe)

Hyundai Motor Co.: 4.6L DOHC V8 (Genesis)

Toyota Motor Corp.: 3.5L DOHC V6 (Lexus IS 350)

Volkswagen AG: 2.0L SOHC I4 Turbodiesel (Jetta TDI)

Link:

http://www.freep.com/article/20081214/BUSINESS01/812140420

 

[MarkBarbieri]

Again, you are WRONG.Good cartoons and satire are effective when they contain truth. This cartoon is dead on and that is why you do not understand the humor.

These partisan and hatefilled GOP senators are only looking out for their own and the GOP's self interests. What is good for the GOP is not good for the country. The claim that the talks broke down due to the UAW refusing to give concessions is simply spin by these partisan senators and have not basis in reality.

You keep repeating the lie about hate filled Senators, but you never back it up with any evidence. Why is that? Where is the evidence that they are motivated by hate? There isn't any because it isn't true. I've patiently explained the logic behind rejecting the bill. It had nothing to do with hate. Why do you assume it is hate? Is your ability to defend the Democrats bill and their refusal to compromise really that devoid of merit that you are left with nothing but ad hominem attacks? Thank goodness that minnie61650 is there to present a reasoned defense of their actions and not simply resorting to enraged slanders.

Now you are denying that the talks broke down? Have you missed the numerous articles on the subject? Are you getting all your news from the Daily Kos? How about a reference from public radio:

A $14 billion auto industry bailout bill stalled in the Senate on Thursday, and Republicans demanded upfront concessions from the United Auto Workers as the price for support needed for passage.

The developments unfolded after Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky joined other GOP lawmakers in announcing his opposition to a White House-backed bill that was approved by the House on Wednesday. He called for an alternative that would reduce the wages and benefits of the Big Three automakers to bring them in line with those paid by Japanese carmakers Nissan, Toyota and Honda.

Or how about this article from Yahoo News:

n negotiations that stretched through the night Thursday, the Tennessee Republican said he had reached agreement with Democrats, executives of the Big Three auto companies and the United Auto Workers on several key issues, including slashing debt and on an overhaul of employees’ benefits. But he said what ultimately derailed the deal was the UAW’s refusal to agree to set a date in 2009 to lower wages of its members so they could be in line with the rates of workers at foreign automakers’ plants based in the U.S.

I know that it must be difficult dealing with the fact that the Democrats in the Senate are gambling with the future of the auto industry to protect inflated union wages. Don't worry though. I think they've got the political power on their side. They'll grab enough money out of TARP to hold them over until the next congress takes over. At that point, they'll have enough votes to grab all the taxpayer money they need to keep the unions happy. It won't be until after many years and many tens of billions of dollars before the taxpayers get mad enough to do something.

 

[MarkBarbieri]

This is a good story on the pure bull that tax breaks and subsidies should not be used for the big three http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hQC3oQUqU4The transplant automakers in the states represented by these hateful and partisan GOP senators are the beneficiaries of some major tax breaks and incentives.

If Michigan wants to give tax breaks to GM, I have no problem with that. It's not my money. I'm only objecting to them spending my federal dollars.

 

[TheZue]

Sorry about your car problems

We have never owned a auto that has not been made by the Detroit companies.

We have had good luck with with ours.

-------------------------------



Link:

http://www.freep.com/article/20081214/BUSINESS01/812140420

Thing is these are based on brand spanking new cars. Reliability isn't judged in the first year or even the first five. It's how they perform OUT of warranty that will make or break a reputation.

 

[CarlaKay]

You keep repeating the lie about hate filled Senators, but you never back it up with any evidence. Why is that? Where is the evidence that they are motivated by hate? There isn't any because it isn't true. I've patiently explained the logic behind rejecting the bill.

I have been waiting for you to present facts or anything to back your claims and have not seen anything yet. Here are some facts that you will ignore. http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-raynor18-2008dec18,0,4066838.story

When one compares how the auto industry and the financial sector are being treated by Congress, the double standard is staggering. In the financial sector, employee compensation makes up a huge percentage of costs. According to the New York state comptroller, it accounted for more than 60% of 2007 revenues for the seven largest financial firms in New York.

At Goldman Sachs, for example, employee compensation made up 71% of total operating expenses in 2007. In the auto industry, by contrast, autoworker compensation makes up less than 10% of the cost of manufacturing a car. Hundreds of billions were given to the financial-services industry with barely a question about compensation; the auto bailout, however, was sunk on this issue alone.


UAW President Ron Gettelfinger realized that the existence of the union was under attack, which is why he refused to give in to the Senate Republicans' demands that the UAW make further concessions. I say "further" because the union has already conceded a lot. Its 2007 contract introduced a two-tier contract to pay new hires $15 an hour (instead of $28) with no defined pension plan and dramatic cuts to their health insurance. In addition, the UAW agreed that healthcare benefits for existing retirees would be transferred from the auto companies to an independent trust. With the transferring of the healthcare costs, the labor cost gap between the Big Three and the foreign transplants will be almost eliminated by the end of the current contracts.

These concessions go some distance toward leveling the playing field (retiree costs are still a factor for the Big Three). But what the foreign car companies want is to level -- which is to say, wipe out -- the union. They currently discourage their workforce from organizing by paying wages comparable to the Big Three's UAW contracts. In fact, Toyota's per-hour wages are actually above UAW wages.

However, an internal Toyota report, leaked to the Detroit Free Press last year, reveals that the company wants to slash $300 million out of its rising labor costs by 2011. The report indicated that Toyota no longer wants to "tie [itself] so closely to the U.S. auto industry." Instead, the company intends to benchmark the prevailing manufacturing wage in the state in which a plant is located. The Free Press reported that in Kentucky, where the company is headquartered, this wage is $12.64 an hour, according to federal labor statistics, less than half Toyota's $30-an-hour wage.

If the companies, with the support of their senators, can wipe out or greatly weaken the UAW, they will be free to implement their plan.

But their plan will not work. The Bush administration is likely to keep the Big Three alive long enough for President-elect Barack Obama to construct a real solution. Democrats and even most Republicans understand that a nation that has already lost 2 million jobs this year cannot afford to put at risk 3 million more.

These republican senators do not care about the country but only want to help their political futures by weakening the unions which have supported Democrats

 

[Charade]

This is a good story on the pure bull that tax breaks and subsidies should not be used for the big three http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hQC3oQUqU4The transplant automakers in the states represented by these hateful and partisan GOP senators are the beneficiaries of some major tax breaks and incentives.

STOP IT!!!!

 

[MarkBarbieri]

I would like to know what you mean by labor friendly but owner hostile business environment....?

My DH owns (for the past 40 some years) a multi million company which employes just over 50 people.

His business is not auto related and is not Union.
His business has NEVER been approched to become union.

Why do you say Michigan is hostile to the business environment?

I am trying to understand.




I also am not sure what you mean by lowering our tax burden because our state deficit has been lowered.


From this website:

http://www.milhs.org/Media/EDocs/StruDefCon03.pdf
Between 1992 & 1999 the Michigan auto industry was doing fairly well.

Through the year 1999 Michigan had a surplus.



In 2000 our budget was -.02 billion $
In 2001 our budget was - 1.06 billion $
In 2002 our budget was -1.70 billion $

So when Governer Granholm took office we already had about a 2.78 billion $ deficit.

From this website:

http://www.michigan.gov/gov/0,1607,7-168--81249--,00.html

The budget deficit in the General Fund and the School Aid Fund combined is currently about $920 million.
----------------------------------

Governor Grandholm is cutting our deficit but it is also effecting some of our very important services such as our schools and our police protection.


Just my 2 cents.

Here are some stats on Michigan and Detroit as places to do business:

Forbes Ranking of Best Places for Business and Careers
Detroit is #195 out of 200. It's job growth ranked #199. It's cost of doing business ranked #162.

Here they are at #45 on the Forbes list of Best States for Business. They ranked #41 on Businesss Costs, #49 on Economic Climate and #49 on Growth Prospects.

I don't actually mean labor friendly in the sense that they are a good state for laborers. If that was the case, people wouldn't be fleeing the state in droves. I mean it in the sense that their laws favor unions. Michigan is a state in which union membership is compulsory in unionized companies. If a majority of your coworkers vote to unionize, you are forced to pay dues to the union. In my state, one of many "right to work" states, each individual worker can decide for themselves whether to join a union.

Here is a somewhat dated article from the Mackinac Center on the subject. I don't know anything about the Mackinac Center, but the article is a pretty good summation of the subject.

As for the budget deficit and taxes, MI is in a tough position. They've been cutting spending (good), but they've been raising taxes (bad). Their tax burden isn't really all that bad (about middle of the pack for the states), but increasing it at a time when the state is hemorrhaging jobs is a bad plan. It's like a store raising prices when it is losing customers.

It's a great state. It has a hard working labor force. It has some great universities. It's got a lot of beautiful areas. The winters are hellish, but nothing is perfect. What it doesn't have are jobs. The state has to make the changes necessary to start attracting companies instead of causing them to flee. If it isn't the taxes (and as I just said, those aren't a draw but they aren't that bad either), what is it that is making businesses flee? Why, when there are so many great reasons for foreign automakers to build in Michigan (good supply of workers, access to suppliers, tremendous local auto knowledge), do none of them ever build plants there? That's easy to answer - the UAW and a lack of "right to work" laws.

Thank you, though, for presenting a coherent, reasoned, and compelling defense of your point of view.

 

[Charade]

I have been waiting for you to present facts or anything to back your claims and have not seen anything yet. Here are some facts that you will ignore. http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-raynor18-2008dec18,0,4066838.storyThese republican senators do not care about the country but only want to help their political futures by weakening the unions which have supported Democrats

You can't compare dissimilar industries like that.

And your last sentence is nothing but an opinion.

 

[Charade]

As for the budget deficit and taxes, MI is in a tough position. They've been cutting spending (good), but they've been raising taxes (bad). Their tax burden isn't really all that bad (about middle of the pack for the states), but increasing it at a time when the state is hemorrhaging jobs is a bad plan. It's like a store raising prices when it is losing customers.

But unlike a store where customer can chose to shop, many taxpayers have little or no choice as where to "shop".

 

[MarkBarbieri]

I have been waiting for you to present facts or anything to back your claims and have not seen anything yet. Here are some facts that you will ignore. http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-raynor18-2008dec18,0,4066838.storyThese republican senators do not care about the country but only want to help their political futures by weakening the unions which have supported Democrats

This is almost amusing. You haven't seen anything to back my claims? You missed the articles I just sited on the breakdown of the talks? You missed my facts on the intractable financial situation of GM? I suppose it might be true that you haven't seen anything...perhaps you are just choosing to overlook them.

You'll notice that the articles I have sited come from reporters reporting the news. The article you sited is clearly labeled "OPINION" at the top. Not just that, it's an opinion piece by a union organizer. That's what your siting as evidence that the Republicans are motivated by hate? Could you have picked any weaker source for your argument at all?

For fun, let's go back an examine a statement from a recent post of yours.

The claim that the talks broke down due to the UAW refusing to give concessions is simply spin by these partisan senators and have not basis in reality.

Now let's compare your statement with the article that YOU just referenced. In it, union leader Bruce Raynor writes:

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.), Sen. Bob Corker ( R-Tenn.) and Sen. Richard C. Shelby (R-Ala.) -- representatives from states that subsidize companies such as Honda, Volkswagen, Toyota and Nissan -- first tried to force the UAW to take reductions in wages and benefits as a condition for supporting the auto industry bailout bill. When the UAW refused, those senators torpedoed the bill.

So there we have it. The spinning union leader Bruce Raynor is agreeing that the Senate discussions broke down because the UAW refused to take reductions in wages and benefits. So this article you site directly supports my early statement and contradicts the false claim you made. "No basis in reality", indeed.

BTW, I'm still waiting for something that says that the Republicans were motivated by hatred. Even the union leader you sited claims that their motivation was to lower wages for Southern auto companies. Even if you take that to be true, and I don't, it's not at all the same thing as hatred. So even this union leader (describe as radicalized by Wikipedia) doesn't stoop to the unsupportable vitriol that you keep spewing. I have to question whether it is your hatred that is leading you to keep slandering 49 publicly elected Senators.

 

[CarlaKay]

STOP IT!!!!

Does the truth hurt?? Here is some more facts for you. http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-gopunions13-2008dec13,0,3433168.story

But in killing the stopgap rescue plan worked out by President Bush and congressional Democrats, conservative Republicans -- many from right-to-work states across the South -- struck at an old enemy: organized labor.

"If the [United Auto Workers], which is perceived as one of the strongest unions in the country, can be put under control, that may send a message across the whole country," said Michigan State University professor Richard Block, a labor relations expert.

Such antipathy to unions was an undercurrent through the weeks of negotiations leading up to Thursday's Senate vote rejecting the plan.

Handing a defeat to labor and its Democratic allies in Congress was also seen as a preemptive strike in what is expected to be a major battle for the new Congress in January: the unions' bid for a so-called card check law that would make it easier for them to organize workers, potentially reversing decades of declining power. The measure is strongly opposed by business groups.

"This is the Democrats' first opportunity to pay off organized labor after the election," read an e-mail circulated Wednesday among Senate Republicans. "This is a precursor to card check and other items. Republicans should stand firm and take their first shot against organized labor, instead of taking their first blow from it."

One of the leading opponents of the auto bailout, Sen. Jim DeMint (R-S.C.), said: "Year after year, union bosses have put their interests ahead of the workers they claim to represent. Congress never should have given these unions this much power, and now is the time to fix it."

Again, the talking points memo obtained by the press shows that the GOP is out to destroy and punish the unions. These facts will not go away just because they make you unhappy.

 

[MarkBarbieri]

But unlike a store where customer can chose to shop, many taxpayers have little or no choice as where to "shop".

The problem for MI is that people do have a choice. They can choose to move themselves or their companies to lower tax states. Even countries have to worry about their relative tax burden. Ireland has gone from poor to wealthy partly on the strength of offering lower taxes than its competitors. The US is now in jeopardy because it has amongst the highest corporate tax rates in the developed world and many companies are shifting income producing assets to lower tax countries.

 

[CarlaKay]

I almost feel sorry for this Michigan republican who is being betrayed by his party http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-gopunions13-2008dec13,0,3433168.story

One major car dealer said conservatives let political ideology get in the way of protecting the country's interests.

"Being a Republican myself, I feel very betrayed by the Republican Party right now," said Beau Boeckmann, vice president of Galpin Motors Inc. in North Hills. Galpin has the nation's largest Ford dealership as well as lots where it sells eight other foreign and domestic brands.

The anti-union sentiment rose to the surface in the final desperate hours of negotiations. Republicans insisted that the UAW agree to cut its wages to be competitive with foreign companies such as Honda, Toyota and BMW by a set date.

UAW officials and their Democratic allies balked, saying the autoworkers were being told to make sacrifices that had not been demanded of other industries receiving government bailouts.

"We could not accept the effort by the Senate GOP caucus to single out workers and retirees for different treatment and to make them shoulder the entire burden of any restructuring," UAW President Ron Gettelfinger said, arguing the union had gone further than any other stakeholder in making concessions to help the companies avoid bankruptcy.

 

[Charade]

Does the truth hurt?? Here is some more facts for you. http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-gopunions13-2008dec13,0,3433168.storyAgain, the talking points memo obtained by the press shows that the GOP is out to destroy and punish the unions. These facts will not go away just because they make you unhappy.

You mean that anonymous, unsigned "memo" that anyone could have written? You really want to base your argument on that? How silly.

 

[MarkBarbieri]

Does the truth hurt?? Here is some more facts for you. http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-gopunions13-2008dec13,0,3433168.storyAgain, the talking points memo obtained by the press shows that the GOP is out to destroy and punish the unions. These facts will not go away just because they make you unhappy.

So am I to understand that you equate wanting people to decrease the power of unions are necessarily motivated by hatred? Is it fair for me to ascribe hatred as the motivation for unions to want to remove the right of employees to a secret vote on unionization? Is it hatred that motivates unions to fight against employees having the right not to join unions and pay them dues?

There is not secret that many (by no means all) members of the GOP want to see weaker unions. I feel that way not because I hate union workers. I feel that way because I value free choice and independence. I think that most US industrial unions create an unhealthy sense of conflict between workers and their company. I think that workers and employers will both be much better off if unions are unable to coerce people to do their bidding. I'm not motivated by hatred. I'm motivated by a desire to make a better world.

Almost all of the Democrats that I know respect my motivation by disagree with my views. Why is that so hard for you? What is the source of this bitterness that keeps you from even trying to see the world from any perspective other than your own? Why are you so filled with hatred? You sound like a left wing, less funny, less persuasive Rush Limbaugh. Thank God that Barack Obama isn't like that.

 

[Charade]

The problem for MI is that people do have a choice. They can choose to move themselves or their companies to lower tax states. Even countries have to worry about their relative tax burden. Ireland has gone from poor to wealthy partly on the strength of offering lower taxes than its competitors. The US is now in jeopardy because it has amongst the highest corporate tax rates in the developed world and many companies are shifting income producing assets to lower tax countries.

I fear NY state is heading in that direction with the long list of new taxes just announced.

 

[CarlaKay]

Here is some more on the hateful anti-union actions of these Southern GOP Senators http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/12/13/bailout/

The fiercest opposition to the loan proposal -- and nearly a third of the 35 votes against ending debate on the deal -- came from Southern Republicans, and the ringleaders of the opposition all come from states with a major foreign auto presence. Not coincidentally, nearly all of those states -- except Kentucky -- are also "right-to-work" states, which means no union contracts for most of the employees at the foreign plants. The Detroit bailout fell victim to a nasty confluence of home-state economic interests and anti-union sentiment among Republicans.

This week Southern Republicans had a chance to go to bat for foreign automakers while simultaneously busting a union. At a hearing last week, Corker explained that his constituents "have a tough time thinking about us loaning money to companies that are paying way, way above industry standard to workers." Which may explain why his proposed alternative to the loan agreement between Congress and the White House would have required the United Auto Workers to agree to significant wage cuts next year, based on a spurious claim that union workers earn significantly more than non-union workers.

Even George W. Bush's White House didn't push to crush the UAW the way Corker and his buddies did, say Democrats involved in the negotiations with the administration. "It was all about the unions," one senior Democratic aide said. "This is political payback for lots of things, and probably even more to come." Labor officials expect Republicans to keep taking shots at unions whenever they can. "This cynical stance they took last night -- they're willing to jeopardize 3 million jobs so they could gain some advantage in their war against unions -- is appalling," said Bill Samuel, the chief lobbyist for the AFL-CIO.

The GOP is becoming mainly a southern party. The GOP has no house members left in the New England states and has lost seats in most of the country. The only thing left for the GOP is to be come the union hating party of the South and that means hurting the rest of the country to accomplish this goal.

 

[CarlaKay]

You mean that anonymous, unsigned "memo" that anyone could have written? You really want to base your argument on that? How silly.

No one from the GOP had denied the authencity of this memo. If this memo was not accurate, the GOP would have disputed the memo and there has been no such dispute.

I challenged JonS99 to provide any one credible who is challenging this memo and he has not done so. If you can find any senior republican who wants to dispute this memo, please provide a link.

I would love to see the GOP try and dispute this memo given its past track record here. Remember what happened to Mel the memo man Martinez who had to agree to retire rather than face the heat due to the Terri Schiavo memo. Poor Mel had to retire after one term in the Senate due to his stupidity on the memo front.

 

[CarlaKay]

Before I head to bed, here is one more article/analysis on the union busting by these republican southern senators. http://thinkprogress.org/2008/12/12/blame-unions-watch/?sortby=toprated

It’s clear that the Senate Republicans’ main priority was union busting. A memo sent among Senate Republican staffers called for Republicans to “stand firm and take their first shot against organized labor.” Speaking at a press conference this morning, UAW president Ron Gettelfinger said the Republicans made it “very clear” that “there are those who would do away with” unions altogether.

Gettelfinger emphasized that the myth that UAW workers are paid drastically more than employees of foreign auto makers is “simply subterfuge.” The Detroit Free Press reported in 2007 that the union was “losing its edge in pay” compared with non-unionized workers for foreign companies. (He also reminded conservatives that the union had already accepted broad concessions.)

More importantly, Gettelfinger correctly identified Senate Republicans’ main goal: to destroy unions and blame the UAW for the auto industry failure:

It’s just easy to take the union and blame us for everything. And as you can see, some of those in the Senate who were quick to scuttle this plan want to say that it’s the fault of the UAW. All they want to do is say, wait a minute, workers shouldn’t have a voice in their workplace. … It’s very clear that there are those who would do away with [unions] tonight.​

He noted that “the right wing in this country has painted the word ‘union’ to be a very negative word.”