Auto Bailout Talks Collapse

[Tigger Woods]

In Detroit, United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger said he was confident that a solution to the auto industry's financial crisis will emerge in Washington despite the Senate's defeat of a bailout bill.
Gettelfinger blamed the defeat of the auto industry bailout bill on southern Senators who he said are anti-union and anti-Detroit.

I know what anti-union means, but what is 'anti-Detroit' supposed to imply?

 

[Galahad]

Unless you work for the auto industry I guess you won't get it, yet. My family and millions of others survive because of the auto industry. This is how we pay for our house, food, the little things in life. If they go down so do we and possible a state. So giving the auto industry a loan is a much better option than bankruptcy. If you or someone close to you was in the industry you would get it!

Bankruptcy doesn't necessarily mean they "go down". It means they are more likely to be forced to do things that actually fix the problem. Any scenario - any - will result in a lot fewer people building cars. That is something everybody needs to adjust to.

 

[jodifla]

I don't think I can put into words how much I detest this sort of thinking. I have known a great many Democrats and Republicans. Not one of them was evil or hate any "class" in America. They had very different views one what would make America better.

Some people think that we need to take more money from successful business and people and lend or give it to those more in need. Others think that doing so will hurt the successful businesses and people and make us less well off overall. Both sides want people to be better off. Their motives are both good. They differ in what they think will work.

You may think that I am evil for not supporting the auto bailout. I and almost all of the majority of Americans that oppose it are not. We differ with you not in our concern for working class people but in what we think will help them the most.

Many countries in modern times have gone from poor to weathly (Singapore, Ireland, and Hong Kong are a couple of examples). They have done it by lowering taxes and decreasing regulations. Other countries have taken significant strides to protect their working class and have seen their economies decline relative to other nations (Germany, France, and pre-Thatcher England are examples). I'm not going to claim that less government spending and fewer regulations are always better. I do believe, however, that countries with freer economies will help their citizens (including the poor) better than heavily regulated economies. Despite believing this, I don't think that people with differing opinions are evil nor are their intentions.

I request that you quit the extremist, partisan name calling of your opponents. Leave that trash for Rush, Nader, et al. I'm not saying that your doing so is evil, but I don't think it is helping you either.

I did not mean to call YOU evil....I was saving that term for the senators and the people playing politics with our lives! So I apologize if you thought that.

I am angry and upset. From where you sit, you have no idea of the devastation that is about to overtake everyone I come into contact with everyday. There's one house in foreclosure on my street, another couple is about to declare bankruptcy.

There are neighborhoods in Michigan (not mine) where so many houses are boarded up the neighborhoods look abandoned. Houses go for $3,000 in Detroit (beautiful old houses), and in some areas, you can get a 5-bedroom, 3 bath house for $25,000.

It's easy to imagine a 50 percent unemployment rate in Michigan without the auto companies, and close to 20 percent nationwide.

I certainly hope bankruptcy works if that's how they decide to go.

 

[Tigger Woods]

Unless you work for the auto industry I guess you won't get it, yet. My family and millions of others survive because of the auto industry. This is how we pay for our house, food, the little things in life. If they go down so do we and possible a state. So giving the auto industry a loan is a much better option than bankruptcy. If you or someone close to you was in the industry you would get it!

If you could take a pay cut and avoid filing for bankruptcy, would you do it?

 

[Charade]

Once the American public realizes they've cut off their nose to spite their face (i.e., once the tsunami of job losses and bank failures they'll bring start coming home to roost, pulling community after community down in a sort of nuclear winter) they'll be just as angry at those senators for doing the WHOLE COUNTRY wrong.

Aren't you a ray of sunshine!!

Well that might be true but it still wouldn't be their fault. Takes two to tango... not 3... well, that's something different...

 

[MyManGoofy!]

Here is something I don't get. When the banks/financial institutes came with their hands out - nothing was put in place over the outlandish bonuses and salaries that these people were getting. The people that were directly responsible for the collapse. But with the auto industry - that salaries of the common workers must be modified and if not -no bail out. And they are not the ones directly responsible for the situation. What is up with that?

 

[Charade]

Oh, Honda, which is SUBSIDIZED by the JAPANESE GOVERNMENT!!!!

Talk about your double standards.

Not Honda USA. Different company.

 

[Galahad]

And they are not the ones directly responsible for the situation.

If they voted for their union reps and their union contracts then they are more directly responsible for the situation than the average non-management financial worker is.

 

[jodifla]

Aren't you a ray of sunshine!!

Well that might be true but it still wouldn't be their fault. Takes two to tango... not 3... well, that's something different...

The senators' jobs are to look out for their state, and then the whole country. They are just playing politics....they are not interested in the health of the whole country. It's payback for the national election....they want to screw over Michigan and Ohio, and they've always wanted to bust up the unions.

 

[jodifla]

If they voted for their union reps and their union contracts then they are more directly responsible for the situation than the average non-management financial worker is.

This is like saying I'm responsible for the Iraq war because Bush is president, though, isn't it?

 

[MarkBarbieri]

I see plenty past my own nose. What I gather is that many people think, "well, to heck with them, it won't affect me." Maybe you'll be lucky and be right. But maybe, according to many economists, the whole country's economy is about to spiral downward.

Check the stock market today? It's not about me.

And many posters keep (not sure about you) keep insisting that the Big 3 build junk that no one wants to buy, and that's the problem.

The problem is actually the CREDIT MARKET, cause by the FINANCIAL mess. GM sells more vehicles most quarters than anybody in the world, so somebody is buying their automobiles.

And now, we see worldwide countries stepping in to subsidize their auto industries, because they deem it necessary for their survival.

But American senators would rather play politics than get to a decent solution.

I looked at the stock market. GM was trading for $80 at the start of the decade. By the middle of 2003 they were worth less than half that. Early this year, before the financial crisis got severe, they were down to $20. Now they are under $4.

They didn't drop from $80 to $20 because of the financial crisis. They dropped because they aren't a very good business. Despite the same financial crisis, Honda is worth more today than they were in 2008 and no one is offering them a big bailout.

Those American senators aren't playing politics. They are listening to the majority of Americans who don't feel that it is in the best interests of the country to keep pouring money into failing enterprises.

I hope that you understand that the billions of dollars that the US auto companies want has to come from somewhere. They will be taking those billions of dollars from people and companies that are struggling. I'm trying to save those people and those companies by not letting you take their money and give it to the people that ran GM into the ground. Can you imagine what trouble this country would be in if we bailed out every business that was in trouble? Personally, I've paid out enough in bailouts. A country with a trillion dollar deficit for the year needs to think about it's balance sheet before we are all in trouble.

 

[MyManGoofy!]

If they voted for their union reps and their union contracts then they are more directly responsible for the situation than the average non-management financial worker is.

I am speaking of the upper management and executives that call all the shots for the business model itself. And if these same people found that the unions were to burdensome are they not responsible for the decision to sign the contract as well?

 

[ScottJ]

Bankruptcy doesn't necessarily mean they "go down". It means they are more likely to be forced to do things that actually fix the problem. Any scenario - any - will result in a lot fewer people building cars. That is something everybody needs to adjust to.

So, where does the Big 3 get bankruptcy financing? I would assume the banking industry that has such a bright outlook that they have taken $335 billion dollars so far?

 

[Tomader]

If you could take a pay cut and avoid filing for bankruptcy, would you do it?

For the record my husband took a 7% paycut and we gave up our health insurance. He works for a supplier. We are not in any union. We have given up as much as we can.

 

[ScottJ]

Not Honda USA. Different company.

What are you talking about? Are you saying Honda USA is a seperate company from Honda? I don't understand.

 

[Charade]

If they voted for their union reps and their union contracts then they are more directly responsible for the situation than the average non-management financial worker is.

Or a Republican senator or the average American for that matter.

 

[Charade]

What are you talking about? Are you saying Honda USA is a seperate company from Honda? I don't understand.

Yes.

 

[padams]

I looked at the stock market. GM was trading for $80 at the start of the decade. By the middle of 2003 they were worth less than half that. Early this year, before the financial crisis got severe, they were down to $20. Now they are under $4.

They didn't drop from $80 to $20 because of the financial crisis. They dropped because they aren't a very good business. Despite the same financial crisis, Honda is worth more today than they were in 2008 and no one is offering them a big bailout.

Those American senators aren't playing politics. They are listening to the majority of Americans who don't feel that it is in the best interests of the country to keep pouring money into failing enterprises.

I hope that you understand that the billions of dollars that the US auto companies want has to come from somewhere. They will be taking those billions of dollars from people and companies that are struggling. I'm trying to save those people and those companies by not letting you take their money and give it to the people that ran GM into the ground. Can you imagine what trouble this country would be in if we bailed out every business that was in trouble? Personally, I've paid out enough in bailouts. A country with a trillion dollar deficit for the year needs to think about it's balance sheet before we are all in trouble.

 

[Charade]

This is like saying I'm responsible for the Iraq war because Bush is president, though, isn't it?

No, it's like saying you are responsible for your own actions and if someone doesn't help you out, it's now somehow that someone else's fault.

 

[jodifla]

I looked at the stock market. GM was trading for $80 at the start of the decade. By the middle of 2003 they were worth less than half that. Early this year, before the financial crisis got severe, they were down to $20. Now they are under $4.

They didn't drop from $80 to $20 because of the financial crisis. They dropped because they aren't a very good business. Despite the same financial crisis, Honda is worth more today than they were in 2008 and no one is offering them a big bailout.

Those American senators aren't playing politics. They are listening to the majority of Americans who don't feel that it is in the best interests of the country to keep pouring money into failing enterprises.

I hope that you understand that the billions of dollars that the US auto companies want has to come from somewhere. They will be taking those billions of dollars from people and companies that are struggling. I'm trying to save those people and those companies by not letting you take their money and give it to the people that ran GM into the ground. Can you imagine what trouble this country would be in if we bailed out every business that was in trouble? Personally, I've paid out enough in bailouts. A country with a trillion dollar deficit for the year needs to think about it's balance sheet before we are all in trouble.

You know what? That's what I've been saying about that war that is now costing a TRILLION dollars...and for nothing.

So I'll say it again...we got a trillion bucks to blow in Iraq then we have a few billion to stabilize the auto industry.

Looks like the White House agrees...they now say they'll step in to stop the bankruptcies. Looks like they GET the fact that the U.S. economy is in danger of collapse.

Oh, and there's a memo out now....turns out an action plan went out for Republicans to oppose the bailout to punish unions for the election. Will try to get a copy to post it.

By the way, I do agree that the Big 3 have been poorly run. They are behemouth institutions who are too slow to change. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to save them, though.