Auto Bailout Talks Collapse

[jodifla]

I'm glad that the deal fell through. That leaves $14 billion in the hands of people that will hopefully put it to more productive uses.

Bailing out GM with their existing structure is a waste of money. It won't work. They have far too many workers, brands, dealers, etc. They are bound by contracts that guarantee their failure. Bankruptcy would be painful, but it would allow the new owners to be free of these onerous contracts. It would entail a huge number of layoffs, pay cuts, factory and dealership closings, but that would give them a chance to survive. Pouring more money into them without a radical restructuring is just heading down the path of making them a carmaker version of Amtrak.

Bankruptcy, most EXPERTS say, will likely mean LIQUIDATION of the Big 3.

GOODBYE 3 MILLION JOBS!

 

[MarkBarbieri]

You need 60 votes to control the Senate. NOT 50!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Geez, didn't anyone pay attention in their American Civics class?

The vote last night was 52-37.....and the bill didn't pass.

Trust me, I know my civics. You need 50 seats plus the VP (who presides over the Senate and breaks tie votes) or 51 seats to control the Senate. With that, you get to determine all the Chairmanships, control the flow of legislation, etc.

By Senate rule (XXII, I think), you need 3/5s of the Senate (60 Senators) votes to reach cloture on a bill. Cloture limits further discussion of a bill to 30 hours. Without cloture, Senators can insist on continuing the debate on a bill. It's called a filibuster.

Senate rules, however, require only a majority vote to change. It is entirely possible for the party controlling the Senate, in this case the Democrats, to change the rules to allow cloture to occur with fewer than 60 votes. Senators in the minority don't want this for obvious reasons and enough senators in the majority prefer to keep the rule, so it hasn't changed (YET).

So once again, the Democrats control the Senate and have done so since January of 2007. They cannot shut off debate on a bill without either getting 9 Republicans or changing the rules.

The number of Republican defectors will drop to three or fewer next year. Currently there are 57 Democrats slated to serve in the Senate. Once the Illinois seat is sold, it will increase to 58. It is also possible that the Minnesota recount will flip that election to Franken making the number 59.

So today, the Democrats control the debate, the flow of legislation, and what gets put into it. They still need to get 1/5 of the Republicans to agree to limit debate on the bill (not necessarily to vote in favor of it) in order to get it through. Soon, that will probably drop to needing 1/20 of the Republicans.

 

[jodifla]

Trust me, I know my civics. You need 50 seats plus the VP (who presides over the Senate and breaks tie votes) or 51 seats to control the Senate. With that, you get to determine all the Chairmanships, control the flow of legislation, etc.

By Senate rule (XXII, I think), you need 3/5s of the Senate (60 Senators) votes to reach cloture on a bill. Cloture limits further discussion of a bill to 30 hours. Without cloture, Senators can insist on continuing the debate on a bill. It's called a filibuster.

Senate rules, however, require only a majority vote to change. It is entirely possible for the party controlling the Senate, in this case the Democrats, to change the rules to allow cloture to occur with fewer than 60 votes. Senators in the minority don't want this for obvious reasons and enough senators in the majority prefer to keep the rule, so it hasn't changed (YET).

So once again, the Democrats control the Senate and have done so since January of 2007. They cannot shut off debate on a bill without either getting 9 Republicans or changing the rules.

The number of Republican defectors will drop to three or fewer next year. Currently there are 57 Democrats slated to serve in the Senate. Once the Illinois seat is sold, it will increase to 58. It is also possible that the Minnesota recount will flip that election to Franken making the number 59.

So today, the Democrats control the debate, the flow of legislation, and what gets put into it. They still need to get 1/5 of the Republicans to agree to limit debate on the bill (not necessarily to vote in favor of it) in order to get it through. Soon, that will probably drop to needing 1/20 of the Republicans.

So, like I said, you need 60 VOTES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Or the evil evil Republicans who HATE THE AMERICAN WORKING CLASS will just do all their dirty work to bust up the unions, while the rest of the America sits idly by, thinking it won't affect them.

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MarkBarbieri]

Bankruptcy, most EXPERTS say, will likely mean LIQUIDATION of the Big 3.

GOODBYE 3 MILLION JOBS!

Experts are of mixed feelings. Most of the ones insisting on liquidation are people that have a vested stake in the industry and want to minimize disruptions.

Even liquidation doesn't mean that everything goes poof. Presumably those brands, factories, workers, etc have some value. That would mean that others would purchase them in the liquidation. It would be more disruptive than a chapter 11 filing, but it wouldn't be the end of the world.

If the feds really want to bail out the auto industry, they should take several other steps:

1) Drop the CAFE standards so that they can make cars people want. Gas prices are plummeting. Why force them to make low profit cars? Despite everyone's love of the Prius, it doesn't actually make money for Toyota.

2) Amend Taft-Hartley to make Right-to-Work a national standard. With current labor laws, no one will want to buy the Michigan factories because of labor relations problems. If each worker was free to decide for him/herself whether to join a union, those factories would be much more attractive.

 

[Charade]

You need 60 votes to control the Senate. NOT 50!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Geez, didn't anyone pay attention in their American Civics class?

The vote last night was 52-37.....and the bill didn't pass.

37+52=89. Where were the other 11? (Biden was one of 11 that didn't vote and Obama is out so there are only 99 senators)

 

[jodifla]

37+52=89. Where were the other 11? (Biden was one of 11 that didn't vote and Obama is out so there are only 99 senators)

If the Dems had the votes, all the Dems would have been there to cast their ballots.


Probably some Republicans didn't want to be the ones who be blamed for WRECKING the country.

 

[MommaSnowwhite]

I do not understand why people are so willing to throw the entire state of Michigan under the bus? Can a state go bankrupt? Because that is next. It is a very sad situation here in Michigan now, and it is going to get much worse. It really is horrible to see because it a gorgeous state and the Michiganders are some of the nicest people I have had the joy to live near!

I would like to hear why the banking companies got their money so easily and the Big 3 -who actually produce something- is being treated the way that they are.

 

[legalsea]

Sorry, I'm not convinced.

If only there were a few more exclamation points, then perhaps you would win me over.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MarkBarbieri]

So, like I said, you need 60 VOTES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Or the evil evil Republicans who HATE THE AMERICAN WORKING CLASS will just do all their dirty work to bust up the unions, while the rest of the America sits idly by, thinking it won't affect them.

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, you need 51. With 51 votes, you can drop the cloture rules. You don't have 51 votes willing to do that.

Without a willingness to change the rules, you do need 60 votes to end debate on this bill. That means that the Democrats have to make it balanced enough to get just 1 in 5 Republicans to agree. That shouldn't be that hard. From the reports, they were willing to do so if the UAW set pay to match those common at other auto plants. Instead of compromising, the UAW has stuck to its guns in a game of chicken. If I were an auto worker, I'd be thinking hard about getting Taft-Hartley amended so that I could quit the union.

 

[Charade]

So, like I said, you need 60 VOTES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Or the evil evil Republicans who HATE THE AMERICAN WORKING CLASS will just do all their dirty work to bust up the unions, while the rest of the America sits idly by, thinking it won't affect them.

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, that's exactly it...


Have you ever had to work to meet union demands? You wouldn't understand why many people don't like them unless you have.

 

[ntsammy5]

So, like I said, you need 60 VOTES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yup you need 60 votes for cloture - if you can't get that the measure will not come to a vote.

The Republican Senators who blocked this measure are mostly from states with non union auto plants. Their constituents would be up in arms if they voted for a bailout of the Big 3 while union workers are making considerably more than their nonunion counter parts. Like it of not, that's a fact Jack. Until the UAW makes some concession, it won't happen - at least not this way.,

 

[jodifla]

Yeah, that's exactly it...


Have you ever had to work to meet union demands? You wouldn't understand why many people don't like them unless you have.

Actually, I currently work under union rules. And yes, there are good and bad things about the rules. Some stuff is just plain stupid.

But I also see that my working condiitions ARE MUCH BETTER than the conditions of those not under union rules, who are basically at work 12 to 15 hours a day week after week with no extra pay or time off.

 

[jodifla]

Yup you need 60 votes for cloture - if you can't get that the measure will not come to a vote.

The Republican Senators who blocked this measure are mostly from states with non union auto plants. Their constituents would be up in arms if they voted for a bailout of the Big 3 while union workers are making considerably more than their nonunion counter parts. Like it of not, that's a fact Jack. Until the UAW makes some concession, it won't happen - at least not this way.,

The UAW has made PLENTY OF CONCESSIONS! But they balked at having their pay stripped next year....whether that was wise, I'm not sure.

But to say they haven't been to the table and made plenty of concessions, INCLUDING ditching the jobs bank, is a complete falsehood.

 

[Charade]

If the Dems had the votes, all the Dems would have been there to cast their ballots.

Ooooh... so the Dems that didn't vote just gave up because they knew they couldn't get 60? They could have voted anyway and eliminated any doubt to their sincerity for this. But they didn't.

 

[jodifla]

Ooooh... so the Dems that didn't vote just gave up because they knew they couldn't get 60? They could have voted anyway and eliminated any doubt to their sincerity for this. But they didn't.

Of course. It's pretty routinely done that way.

 

[jodifla]

Yup you need 60 votes for cloture - if you can't get that the measure will not come to a vote.

The Republican Senators who blocked this measure are mostly from states with non union auto plants. Their constituents would be up in arms if they voted for a bailout of the Big 3 while union workers are making considerably more than their nonunion counter parts. Like it of not, that's a fact Jack. Until the UAW makes some concession, it won't happen - at least not this way.,

Since it takes 15,000 parts to make a car, and a lot of those parts come from Big 3 suppliers, those plants are likely to start shutting down soon.

What a Merry Christmas people are wishing to MILLIONS OF FAMILIES WHO WILL BE WITHOUT JOBS!

 

[ntsammy5]

Should have clarified that - the UAW would have to make WAGE CONCESSIONS to get this thing passed - nothing else would be acceptable to those dead set against the bailout. BTW I'm not against it, just not in favor of it. I think there is a difference.

 

[jodifla]

Should have clarified that - the UAW would have to make WAGE CONCESSIONS to get this thing passed - nothing else would be acceptable to those dead set against the bailout. BTW I'm not against it, just not in favor of it. I think there is a difference.

It's my bet if the UAW had agreed with that, then the evil ugly dirty Republican senators would have just found something else. They were NEVER going to vote for the bailout.

They just want to see people beg.

Hope they like American in another Great Depression. Most of those 3 million jobs, which likely have several people depending on them. So how many people is that now whose lives are wrecked....15, 20 million??

 

[Charade]

Actually, I currently work under union rules. And yes, there are good and bad things about the rules. Some stuff is just plain stupid.

But I also see that my working condiitions ARE MUCH BETTER than the conditions of those not under union rules, who are basically at work 12 to 15 hours a day week after week with no extra pay or time off.

That's not what I meant. My wife works (the accountant) for a glass company and they have union glazers in their employ. The "rule" book is pretty extensive. Some things are just stupid. But to get the contract work (which requires union employees) they had to hire union workers. It's a nightmare. And most of he union workers won't budge. One of my customers has union workers and I service their equipment. Their day ends at 4pm and unless someone authorizes overtime, they're out the door. More than once they would not stay (unless they were paid) for a little bit for me to fix their equipment. Not even 15 minutes (that's all I needed) so I had to drive 200 miles the next day. Recently I was about 10 minutes away (stuck in construction) and it was about 3:45. I knew I only needed about 15 minutes to repair their machine. They wouldn't stay (unless paid) so I had to turn around and drive the 200 miles (round trip) the next day. This is common among the union shops I deal with. Some are fine and will work with you but most are strictly by the contract. I've been dealing with them off and on for 30 years. And I can see how they operate within their own company as an outside observer.

So hopefully you can understand why I don't like unions all that much.

 

[Charade]

Of course. It's pretty routinely done that way.

So where is your outrage at those "evil" Dems?