Arsenic in Apple Juice

[hambirg]

Which still raises the question that I asked earlier...

If he is so concerned about the arsenic level in apple juice, why did he say that he is still going to allow his children to drink it?

Maybe he doesn't want to cause mass hysteria when we don't really know the answers.

 

[YodaGirl]

Maybe he doesn't want to cause mass hysteria when we don't really know the answers.

Isn't he causing mass hysteria by bringing it up and suggesting that it could be harmful without really knowing?

There are lots of people who will just hear what they want to hear (i.e. Dr. Oz said that apple juice is dangerous, and it's poisoning our kids. We shouldn't give our kids apple juice.), when he is essentially saying that we've known for awhile that arsenic is naturally occurring in some foods and that the tests that they've performed show that there is arsenic in the juice, but we don't know what type of arsenic it is, or whether it's always been there. He obviously doesn't deem it dangerous, so why suggest that it might be?

I agree with a commentator I heard today. It seems like he's yelling "fire" in a crowded movie theater.

ETA: I hope I don't come across as argumentative. That's not my intention. I just really don't understand why he even brought it up without conclusive information as to the potential for harm. It irks me when people make suggestions like this without any real evidence then people only halfway hear what is being said...it's just a snowball effect.

 

[hambirg]

Isn't he causing mass hysteria by bringing it up and suggesting that it could be harmful without really knowing?

There are lots of people who will just hear what they want to hear (i.e. Dr. Oz said that apple juice is dangerous, and it's poisoning our kids. We shouldn't give our kids apple juice.), when he is essentially saying that we've known for awhile that arsenic is naturally occurring in some foods and that the tests that they've performed show that there is arsenic in the juice, but we don't know what type of arsenic it is, or whether it's always been there. He obviously doesn't deem it dangerous, so why suggest that it might be?

I agree with a commentator I heard today. It seems like he's yelling "fire" in a crowded movie theater.

ETA: I hope I don't come across as argumentative. That's not my intention. I just really don't understand why he even brought it up without conclusive information as to the potential for harm. It irks me when people make suggestions like this without any real evidence then people only halfway hear what is being said...it's just a snowball effect.

I don't think he is. They ran some tests and he is telling people what the results were. It is alarming to find that there are total arsenic levels that are high. Great. . now let's find out exactly what forms of arsenic they are. What I don't like is the FDA saying that they are all safe. They don't know that. It reminds me of the Wizard of OZ (pun intended I guess). "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." Uh. . .the FDA came out with a response saying that his findings were false because it was a measure of total arsenic. Maybe. What I really don't like is that they said that what he found is due to safe organic arsenic. First, they don't know that and second, I know that there are, in fact, toxic organic arsenics. Just because arsenic is naturally occurring and/or organic does NOT mean that they are safe and non-toxic. I HATE that the FDA makes it sound that way. It's misleading. . .which makes me question their motives.

 

[cornflake]

I don't think he is. They ran some tests and he is telling people what the results were. It is alarming to find that there are total arsenic levels that are high. Great. . now let's find out exactly what forms of arsenic they are. What I don't like is the FDA saying that they are all safe. They don't know that.

What do you mean they don't know that? On what basis do you think they don't know that? What makes you think it's alarming? That'd indicate it's not known and could be harmful and there's nothing to indicate either of those things.

Why do you think we don't know what forms of arsenic they are? Why do you think the FDA doesn't test it themselves? I'm guessing they do and know how much arsenic is in apples and thus juice. There is, as noted, a difference between naturally-occuring arsenic and manufactured.

Why assume his random test was even correct?

 

[shortbun]

Yes, there are risks in pesticides but then before pesticides there were other risks - insufficient food supplies caused by fungs like the potato blight or when bugs ate entire crops (the locust swarms and similar) and deadly mold contaminations like Ergot poisoning. So, literally, we must pick our poison.

Well, I guess that means you're choosing pesticides. I kind of like cross breeding and cutting the worms out of the apples. That's what we do here, cut out the worms.

The other thing about this specific issue-apple juice, is this: don't give your child juice. Give them water and an organic apple.

 

[hambirg]

What do you mean they don't know that? On what basis do you think they don't know that? What makes you think it's alarming? That'd indicate it's not known and could be harmful and there's nothing to indicate either of those things.

Why do you think we don't know what forms of arsenic they are? Why do you think the FDA doesn't test it themselves? I'm guessing they do and know how much arsenic is in apples and thus juice. There is, as noted, a difference between naturally-occuring arsenic and manufactured.

Why assume his random test was even correct?

I am just going by the FDA response letter. They claim that they differentiate between inorganic and organic arsenic. They make it sound like ALL organic arsenic is safe. That simply isn't true. If they produced a document or study results that showed that apple juiced contained the specific arsenic that is easily metabolized by our bodies and is safe that would be one thing. . .but they didn't. There are plenty of types of organic arsenic that are toxic. Elemental arsenic (which is inorganic) which is naturally occurring is toxic. I don't understand if they had the data why they wouldn't say that. Instead what they are doing is producing a letter that says Dr Oz's results are false (and they might be) because they tested total arsenic. They test to differentiate between organic and inorganic arsenic. What they aren't telling people is that that doesn't really mean a hill of beans, because there are plenty of organic and naturally occurring arsenics that ARE toxic. Just because the arsenic that isn't toxic to us is organic, doesn't mean that that is what is showing up in their tests. Other organic forms of arsenic ARE toxic. How about they do the tests and tell us exactly what is in the apple juice instead of throwing that fallacy out there thinking people will take their flawed logic as fact?

 

[baseballmickey]

I learned about this by watching GI Joe when I was a kid. They destroyed a gelatinous blob that was eating up everything by feeding it thousands of apples... because each apple contains a tiny bit of "poison". But GI Joe reassured me and my friends that apples can only be harmful in ridiculously large amounts

"Now you know... and knowing is half the battle!"

I drink just as much apple juice, if not more, than my DD. And I'm fine... really, I am.

 

[cornflake]

I am just going by the FDA response letter. They claim that they differentiate between inorganic and organic arsenic. They make it sound like ALL organic arsenic is safe. That simply isn't true. If they produced a document or study results that showed that apple juiced contained the specific arsenic that is easily metabolized by our bodies and is safe that would be one thing. . .but they didn't. There are plenty of types of organic arsenic that are toxic. Elemental arsenic (which is inorganic) which is naturally occurring is toxic. I don't understand if they had the data why they wouldn't say that. Instead what they are doing is producing a letter that says Dr Oz's results are false (and they might be) because they tested total arsenic. They test to differentiate between organic and inorganic arsenic. What they aren't telling people is that that doesn't really mean a hill of beans, because there are plenty of organic and naturally occurring arsenics that ARE toxic. Just because the arsenic that isn't toxic to us is organic, doesn't mean that that is what is showing up in their tests. Other organic forms of arsenic ARE toxic. How about they do the tests and tell us exactly what is in the apple juice instead of throwing that fallacy out there thinking people will take their flawed logic as fact?

I don't know, because if I go on television and claim peanuts can kill because there's mold often found on them and I found mold on a peanut, does the FDA need to present everything known about peanuts and release all the information the world has gathered on peanuts because people are credulous?

That's like 'well, the government didn't explain exactly how every single point of the claim that the moon landing was faked' so thus, therefore, might be faked, we can never know! Yes, we can know.

As for the apple juice thing, here. Bracketed comments mine.

The segment earned a stiff rebuke from representatives of government, industry, and academia for causing unnecessary alarm, even before it aired.

The criticism centered primarily on Oz's testing methods, which provided a level of total arsenic in the juices. The results do not provide a breakdown of the levels of the two forms of arsenic -- organic and inorganic.

In heated confrontation aired on ABC's Good Morning America, Besser not only blasted reporting of only the total arsenic numbers but also charged that relying on a single lab to test for arsenic fell far short of scientific standards. Oz, however, refused to back down and maintained that he acted responsibly....

The organic form of arsenic is "essentially harmless," according to the FDA [do you think they're making that up or saying it without any backing? Just because they're not explaining in detail the science behind that statement doesn't make it false]

The FDA said it has been testing for arsenic in apple juice for several years. The juice is first screened with a test for total arsenic because it is rapid, accurate, and cost-effective, according to Zink. Only when the total level of arsenic is greater than 23 ppb does the agency employ the more complex inorganic arsenic test.

"The vast majority of samples we have tested for total arsenic have less than 23 ppb," Zink noted.

In a second letter to the show, Zink informed the producers that the FDA had performed its own testing on samples of apple juice from the same lot that yielded the highest level of arsenic in Dr. Oz's investigation. All of the results ranged from 2 ppb to 6 ppb.

"In short," Zink wrote, "the results of the tests cited above do not indicate that apple juice contains unsafe amounts of arsenic."...

In an email to ABC News and MedPage Today, Aaron Barchowsky, PhD, a professor in the department of environmental and occupational health at the University of Pittsburgh, [so this is actually his bailiwick] said that he agrees with the FDA's conclusion.

"It is the inorganic form of arsenic in the environment that is toxic, and measuring total arsenic is not informative," he wrote. "I support the comments by the FDA and agree that the Oz show analysis is incomplete and probably misleading."

 

[hambirg]

I don't know, because if I go on television and claim peanuts can kill because there's mold often found on them and I found mold on a peanut, does the FDA need to present everything known about peanuts and release all the information the world has gathered on peanuts because people are credulous?

That's like 'well, the government didn't explain exactly how every single point of the claim that the moon landing was faked' so thus, therefore, might be faked, we can never know! Yes, we can know.

As for the apple juice thing, here. Bracketed comments mine.

I don't think what Dr Oz did was claim that peanuts can kill some people (which they can). Why wouldn't they test for arsenobenataine? What Dr Oz did was send some apple juice to a lab. The test results (which I think are valid) determined that there were high levels of total arsenic. . .which is a potential problem. If the lab came back with acceptable levels this wouldn't even be an issue. Inorganic and elemental arsenics are toxic. Many organic and naturally occurring arsenics are toxic. There is one specific organic arsenic isotope, arsenobenataine that isn't toxic. The FDA produces a letter that doesn't mention testing for arsenobenataine, but organic arsenic. My response to that is a big so what. It proves nothing. When they tell me that they test for arsenobenataine and find that that is the cause of the high readings then fine. Don't blow smoke up my *** and tell me all is ok.

It's like testing cigarettes in a lab and finding high levels of carcinogens, but coming back and saying because they didn't differentiate between non-filtered and filtered that the results are wrong. My answer is maybe. . .and differentiating between filtered and non-filtered means nothing. . .so don't try and convince me that it does. . .just because you say it does. KWIM?

ETA- as far as the brackets. . .when they show me the data for the specific testing for arsenobenataine then I will be ok with it. And yes it matters to me that they tell me that because I am aware of organic arsenics that are toxic. . . .so don't tell me you tested for organic arsenic and it's ok. It's not. . .many are toxic.

ETA-The whole argument that there are only two types of arsenic is completely false! Why would they even come with that argument? Again, just because the one specific harmless arsenic is organic does not mean in any way that ALL organic forms of arsenic are non-toxic. That line of thought is so completely illogical it makes my head hurt. And so yes, when people start making illogical arguments, I start to doubt their motives.

 

[cornflake]

I don't think what Dr Oz did was claim that peanuts can kill some people (which they can). Why wouldn't they test for arsenobenataine? What Dr Oz did was send some apple juice to a lab. The test results (which I think are valid) determined that there were high levels of total arsenic. . .which is a potential problem. If the lab came back with acceptable levels this wouldn't even be an issue. Inorganic and elemental arsenics are toxic. Many organic and naturally occurring arsenics are toxic. There is one specific organic arsenic isotope, arsenobenataine that isn't toxic. The FDA produces a letter that doesn't mention testing for arsenobenataine, but organic arsenic. My response to that is a big so what. It proves nothing. When they tell me that they test for arsenobenataine and find that that is the cause of the high readings then fine. Don't blow smoke up my *** and tell me all is ok.

It's like testing cigarettes in a lab and finding high levels of carcinogens, but coming back and saying because they didn't differentiate between non-filtered and filtered that the results are wrong. My answer is maybe. . .and differentiating between filtered and non-filtered means nothing. . .so don't try and convince me that it does. . .just because you say it does. KWIM?

ETA- as far as the brackets. . .when they show me the data for the specific testing for arsenobenataine then I will be ok with it. And yes it matters to me that they tell me that because I am aware of organic arsenics that are toxic. . . .so don't tell me you tested for organic arsenic and it's ok. It's not. . .many are toxic.

Again, why do you assume they don't test for particular things just because they didn't list every single thing they do?

And why assume his one lab's results are valid but the FDA's, which contradict his, are somehow not valid?

This is like saying 'because NASA didn't give every detail how this particular facet of the claim that they faked the moon landing is fake, though they explained in broad terms, including that facet, why it's not true, it might be all fake, they can't be trusted!' If your general belief is that the FDA is always lying, but the guy on the teevee is to be trusted, well...

 

[disykat]

I think the fact that this show was poorly researched doesn't negate everything he says. I certainly am not under any false notion that Dr. Oz does all his own research.

That said, my main issue with Dr. Oz is that he talks about health and diet but seems to be losing an unnatural amount of weight. I used to think he looked "fit," now I would describe him as "gaunt." I can't help but think he's taking his own advice a little too seriously!

 

[hambirg]

Again, why do you assume they don't test for particular things just because they didn't list every single thing they do?

And why assume his one lab's results are valid but the FDA's, which contradict his, are somehow not valid?

This is like saying 'because NASA didn't give every detail how this particular facet of the claim that they faked the moon landing is fake, though they explained in broad terms, including that facet, why it's not true, it might be all fake, they can't be trusted!' If your general belief is that the FDA is always lying, but the guy on the teevee is to be trusted, well...

I'm not asking for every detail. But the fact that they said it is organic, therefore safe is false. It's a logical fallacy. If they meant they tested for the safe organic kind why not say that? Just simply saying what they tested for was organic vs inorganic, and therefore it was organic and safe is not true. If their testing produced different results, then I suggest that more tests be run. . not a blanket statement that it's safe, based on their testing and false logic.

It's like NASA saying, we went to the moon and it's not made of cheese, but rocks. That in no way proves that they went to the moon.

 

[3DisneyBuggs]

I do think there is something to be worried about. Have you noticed some apple juices are made from apples grown in China? There have been numerous reports of food poisonings in China. I now look to be sure any juice I buy is from products grown in the US. I think the FDA should do a more thorough investigation on this arsenic issue, including the point of origin of the apples.

 

[Nette]

From what I understand it is juice made from imported apples (or imported juice).

Here is a link to the Dr. Oz results:

http://www.doctoroz.com/videos/dr-oz-investigates-arsenic-apple-juice

ETA- I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this. Arsenic has many forms, and yes some of them are quickly metabolized by the body and are not harmful, like the kind in fish and mushrooms. But the FDA makes it sound like ALL organic forms or all naturally occurring arsenic is safe at any level, and that's simply not true. Lewisite is an arsine and it was used in chemical warfare. So no, sorry FDA not ALL organic arsenic is safe. Of course Dr. Oz might be fear mongering a bit. But I think it would be prudent to find out first exactly what forms of arsenic we are talking about, before we dismiss it just because it was a total arsenic test. We shouldn't be assuming it's toxic, but we also shouldn't be assuming it's not.

Amen. It's so refreshing to hear from someone who is skeptical of BOTH sides. People all too often only hear half of the story and then believe it blindly. Unfortunately, they trust big govt agencies like the FDA (who is bought and paid for no doubt) just because they are the govt and the govt would NEVER do anything to hurt us! Whatever.

I can't imagine how little someone could eat being sensitive to MSG. That'd be really tough. Most processed food and ... well, I loves me some cheese. That'd suck.

The lactose thing (and I personally think gluten but I've seen less science to support that), is mostly bunk. People think they're intolerant but they're not.

You're joking right? I'm definitely sensitive to MSG and yet I eat a wide array of foods... just not processed stuff. The only things I eat processed are crackers and cereal. And small amounts really don't bother me, but give me a slice of pizza (covered in all that parmesan cheese) or chinese food and my head just starts hurting for hours. People rely on prepackaged food to much anyway.

Well, there hasn't been any long term studies. when those happen then I think we can make conclusions. The problem with the fact that people have been drinking apple juice for ages, is that we don't know if it has always had high levels of arsenic.

I don't think he's claiming to be an "expert". BUT they did tests at a credible lab and reported their findings. I don't see a problem with that. I DO see a problem with the FDA saying that the tests just show high levels of organic arsenic. We don't know that until there are further tests. And I also know that their claim that ALL organic arsenic is safe is ********. There are MANY forms of both organic and inorganic arsenic. Not ALL organic arsenic is safe. Not ALL naturally occurring arsenic is safe. How about we do more testing to be sure what we are dealing with before we make those kinds of claims? That goes for both sides.

Agreed. Dr. Oz's test were the preliminary tests, and more should be done that break out the types of arsenic.

Again, why do you assume they don't test for particular things just because they didn't list every single thing they do?

And why assume his one lab's results are valid but the FDA's, which contradict his, are somehow not valid?

This is like saying 'because NASA didn't give every detail how this particular facet of the claim that they faked the moon landing is fake, though they explained in broad terms, including that facet, why it's not true, it might be all fake, they can't be trusted!' If your general belief is that the FDA is always lying, but the guy on the teevee is to be trusted, well...

She's not saying that at all. She's saying that BOTH parties could be wrong. Read her posts. She NEVER defends Dr. Oz. She says that taking what the FDA says for granted is a mistake. I agree... think of all the drugs that have been recalled that the FDA approved as "safe". Ever heard of innocent until proven guilty? Yeah, the FDA applies that to the food and drugs we consume. Totally backward.

Do some research on the revolving door of officials between big companies and FDA jobs. Yeah. They are bought and paid for.

I do think there is something to be worried about. Have you noticed some apple juices are made from apples grown in China? There have been numerous reports of food poisonings in China. I now look to be sure any juice I buy is from products grown in the US. I think the FDA should do a more thorough investigation on this arsenic issue, including the point of origin of the apples.

I do my very best to avoid stuff from China. Especially food. I don't trust that any of the screening agencies in the US are actually doing a good job, and I KNOW that China's govt doesn't give a rat's hiney what they produce.

 

[Planogirl]

I was planning to buy apple juice today and I still will. I might read the label a little more closely though. The China thing is a bit troubling.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Source? Is this naturally occurring or added?

The reason I ask is that I elect to avoid it and I know what we have that is on your list doesn't have it added.

For one knocking a heart surgeon, your post surprises me because in my experience, it is incorrect if you are referring to it being an added ingredient.


Just looked it up...it is naturally occurring. Kind if like sugar and fruit. I don't add sugar to my food, but a piece of fruit isn't the same even if it is sugar.

We also have a ranch dressing made without msg.

Oy vey iz mir.

The reason MSG hasn't been banned is because there'd be hardly any food left and because the reports of people getting ill from it are largely, like the lactose intolerance crowd, hysteria, not reality.

Do you know what has a ridiculous amount of MSG? Parmesan cheese. Other cheeses also contain glutemates. As do tomatoes, mushrooms, some meat things, nearly every saucey condiment in existance, etc., etc. - as well as yeast products, because glutemates are a byproduct of fermentation.

Hence, MSG also in soy and soy products and soy-based flavourings. Tons of meat substitute stuff has lots of MSG because of the soy, like TVP. Marmite? Pretty much straight MSG. Yet I've never heard of people going on about they get ill from it, just from Chinese food.

Most of what I've heard about studies using MSG show no issues, except the occasional deal when some lab animals have been given massive doses. I know there have been studies in which they gave people who claimed they were sensitive to MSG lots of straight MSG and it did nothing.

Same as the lactose thing and sugar/hyperactivity thing, testing seems to show that it's psychologically-driven, not physiologically.

 

[FireDancer]

Eh, I avoid apple juice because it is basically apple flavored sugar water, not because of the arsenic.

I put about as much faith in Dr. Oz as I do in the FDA which isn't much. One is concerned with ratings while the other is concerned with keeping lobbyists and campaign contributors happy. Anyone who thinks either is really looking after your health is fooling themselves.

 

[Uncle Remus]

Eh, I avoid apple juice because it is basically apple flavored sugar water, not because of the arsenic.

I put about as much faith in Dr. Oz as I do in the FDA which isn't much. One is concerned with ratings while the other is concerned with keeping lobbyists and campaign contributors happy. Anyone who thinks either is really looking after your health is fooling themselves.

Best post outta this whole thread.

 

[Plannin'Shannon]

Eh, I avoid apple juice because it is basically apple flavored sugar water, not because of the arsenic.

I put about as much faith in Dr. Oz as I do in the FDA which isn't much. One is concerned with ratings while the other is concerned with keeping lobbyists and campaign contributors happy. Anyone who thinks either is really looking after your health is fooling themselves.

Best post outta this whole thread.

I'll second that.

 

[Kat77]

Has anyone here mentioned that fruit pits contain cyanide? I skimmed through the posts and did not see any references to it.

http://www.snopes.com/food/warnings/apples.asp

Adding: Just read through and saw it was covered by Hamburg and others.