Are the wine pairings from Victoria and Albert's worth the extra $60?

[TheDonald]

Are the wine pairings from Victoria and Albert's worth it? Do they just give you a swallow of each wine pairing or do they serve the normal amount in a goblet?

I'm not going to lie, I also enjoy the slight relaxed, almost buzzed feeling I get from wine.

 

[Brian Noble]

I can't speak to volume, but I would expect that V&A's sommelier does a good job selecting the wines for each course. My advice would be: go big or go home. You're going to V&A, don't quibble over $60 and get the wine pairings.

 

[mama03]

I would say absolutely!!! The sommelier picks the wines to compliment the courses of food. The pours will probably be 4-6oz., which is plenty. Check up at the review board and put in a search for v&a and you should see lots of reviews from past diners.

 

[TinkerBelle_325]

They are absolutely worth $60. You get 6 glasses of wine: Typically champagne to start, two whites, two reds and a choice of a sweet sparkling wine or port with the pre-dessert course.

There are interesting exceptions such as sake, or a lovely belgian ale, but the above progression is typical. The pours are quite generous, 4 to 6 oz and the wines are quite high quality.

An example of the quality: my australian kobe ($35 upgrade) was paired with a duckhorn, a red that typically retails for upwards of $70 per bottle, with restaurant markups being considerably higher.

 

[Pakey]

Although I enjoy wine, the V&A pairings are too much for me, as the pours are quite generous. I barely remember my desserts from the first few times we dined here because I was drunk by the 3rd course. My husband always gets it but I've learned that I'm better off just ordering a glass. I usually have a red with my meat course and it's plenty for me. If any of the others particularly appeal, I will just force my husband to let me have a small taste of his.

 

[ElizabethB]

Yes, the wine pairings are worth the price. A nice wine by the glass most anywhere now costs $20. So six glasses for the price is a bargain. The pours are generous, the wines high end and lovely -- and beautifully paired with the food.

 

[momtoccc]

Yes, Yes, YES!!!!

 

[POLY1985]

I just read somewhere on the boards that a couple can split a pouring. They each get about a 3 oz pour. The person who posted said she was worried about drinking 6 glasses but they told her she could do a split.

 

[JimmyV]

Volume-wise, it is definitely worth it. If you are going to have wine with your multi-course meal, it would be hard for 2 people to escape for less than $100. So for $120, two people get plenty of good to very good wine. But don't be misled into thinking that you are getting awesome wine. With a meal of that caliber, I prefer to drink really special wine, so we usually pay the $25 corkage and bring a couple of treasures from our cellar, supplement that with a glass of Champagne, and offer whatever wine we don't consume to the Chef, Sommelier and staff.

 

[TheRustyScupper]

1) The wine servings are small, as opposed to a bottle or full glass.
2) But, usually, enough for the dish you are eating.
3) In most cases, the parings go well with the dish.
4) But, in some cases, the pairing seems misplaced.
. . . the appy pairing did not seem to match the appy
. . . it actually washed away the appy taste, instead of complimenting it
. . . were left tasting the wine and not the appy, after each sip
. . . the other parings seemed fine
5) Overall, if you enjoy wine, the pairing is reasonably priced. *

* To many, the taste of wine enhances the dish. To others, it
does not make a significant difference. If you drink wine to drink
wine, skip the pairings. If you drink specific exact wine selections
(eg. a 2007, Pinot, from XYZ cellars, reserve bottled) to enhance
an exact dish, then go with the pairing. If you drink (eg. White Zin)
because you like the taste with food, then skip the pairing.

 

[JimmyV]

To give you an idea of what you would be getting, I looked at a menu from earlier this year. The wines, (and in one case, sake) are listed below alongside their reasonable retail price:

Taittinger Prestige Cuvee NV ($32)
Conundrum, California 2008 ($17)
Kanbara "Bride of the Fox" Gohyakumangoku Junmai Ginjo, Nigata (Sake) ($25)
Cru "Montage Vineyard" Chardonnay, Monterey 2008 ($23)
Lonardi Giuseppe Valpolicella Ripasso 2007 ($19)
La Crema "Los Carneros" Pinot Noir, Carneros 2007 ($16)
Mollydooker "The Boxer" Shiraz, McLaren Vale 2009 ($20)
Duckhorn Cabernet Sauvignon, Napa Valley 2006 ($55)

If you were to buy full bottles of every one of these wine, your total cost would be $207. If you assume that your pour is 3.5 oz of each wine, then you are getting 1/7th of a bottle. And for the sake, you are probably getting 1/20th of the bottle. So in terms of value, you are paying $60 for about $28 worth of wine, based on retail prices. Assume a 100%-200% mark-up for wine in a restaurant, and the $60 is a reasonable value. But none of these wines are wines that I would be excited about drinking with a meal of the caliber of V&A's. These are largely "supermarket" wines that don't appeal to me and as Rusty noted, may not be the best pairings. For example, I would not want to drink a Ripasso right before drinking a Pinot, irrespective of how well it went with the dish. LIkewise, I would not want a Mollydooker in front of a Cabernet. So for me, even at a "value" price, the pairings would not be worth it when I was trying to make a really special meal even more special. Feel free to disagree. It's only food and wine, afterall.

 

[kdka421]

In my opinion:

YES definitely. They claim that each pour is about 2-3 ounces, but I'd say that most of the pours were closer to 4 oz. Even at the end of a 3.5 hour dinner, we definitely both felt the effects of the alcohol. It was definitely more wine then I'd typically drink with a meal, but the experience was very special.
We also bought thought the pairings were spot on, they matched great.

 

[Uncleromulus]

Alcohol ALWAYS has a huge mark-up no matter what restaurant you're at.

As for V&A, the pairings are especially nice if you don't really know wine, or don't have a particular favorite. When we do V&A, we always get the pairings.

To add: I SEEM to recall that at one time V&A had "Reserve" Wine pairings. Was a while back--does anyone recall that??

 

[TinkerBelle_325]

To give you an idea of what you would be getting, I looked at a menu from earlier this year. The wines, (and in one case, sake) are listed below alongside their reasonable retail price:

Taittinger Prestige Cuvee NV ($32)
Conundrum, California 2008 ($17)
Kanbara "Bride of the Fox" Gohyakumangoku Junmai Ginjo, Nigata (Sake) ($25)
Cru "Montage Vineyard" Chardonnay, Monterey 2008 ($23)
Lonardi Giuseppe Valpolicella Ripasso 2007 ($19)
La Crema "Los Carneros" Pinot Noir, Carneros 2007 ($16)
Mollydooker "The Boxer" Shiraz, McLaren Vale 2009 ($20)
Duckhorn Cabernet Sauvignon, Napa Valley 2006 ($55)

If you were to buy full bottles of every one of these wine, your total cost would be $207. If you assume that your pour is 3.5 oz of each wine, then you are getting 1/7th of a bottle. And for the sake, you are probably getting 1/20th of the bottle. So in terms of value, you are paying $60 for about $28 worth of wine, based on retail prices. Assume a 100%-200% mark-up for wine in a restaurant, and the $60 is a reasonable value. But none of these wines are wines that I would be excited about drinking with a meal of the caliber of V&A's. These are largely "supermarket" wines that don't appeal to me and as Rusty noted, may not be the best pairings. For example, I would not want to drink a Ripasso right before drinking a Pinot, irrespective of how well it went with the dish. LIkewise, I would not want a Mollydooker in front of a Cabernet. So for me, even at a "value" price, the pairings would not be worth it when I was trying to make a really special meal even more special. Feel free to disagree. It's only food and wine, afterall.

I do disagree. The wines aren't chosen simply on vintage, price point etc. They are selected to compliment the elements of the dish.

Given your particular tastes, you don't sound the type to enjoy wine pairings. If you feel strongly about the progression of the wine, basing that opinion on the grape/wine varietal rather than the wine itself, then you might not be the best sounding board for someone interested in pairings.

Restaurant markups for wine are upwards of 300% so you are most certainly getting more than $28 worth of wine. The pours are closer to 4 or 5 ounces, so you are getting 1/5th or 1/6th of a bottle.

A bottle of 2009 Conundrum sells at California Grill for $62. The average retail price is $21. That is a 295% markup, so V&A would safely be 300%.

Additionally, you would never be served a shiraz before a cab sauv. Those two wines are in the same tasting category.

From the WDW website V&A menu, with retail averages AND restaurant averages in brackets

Amuse Pairing
Pommery Royal Brut NV ($44/$132)

1st course (cold appetizer) Pairing
Bisson Bianchetta, Golfo del Tigullio (DOC) Génova 2007 ($23/$69)
OR
Domaine King Estate Pinot Gris, Oregon 2008 ($19/$57)
OR
Cîroc Vodka ($30/$90)

2nd course (seafood) Pairing
Mer Soleil Chardonnay, Santa Lucia Highlands, 2008 ($30/$90)
OR
Kanbara “Bride of the Fox” Gohyak umangok u Junmai Ginjo, Niga ta ($35/$105)
OR
Hyde Vineyard “HDV” Chardonnay, Napa Valley 2007 ($58/$174)

3rd course (hot appetizer) Pairing
Estrella Inedit, Spain (Beer, $15/$45)
Crū “Montage Vineyard” Chardonnay, Monterey 2008 ($20/$60)
OR
Ceretto Rossana Dolcetto d’Alba 2006 ($25/$75)
OR
La Crema “Los Carneros” Pinot Noir, Carneros 2007 ($31/$93)

4th course (entree) Pairing
Trinitas “Old Vine” Zinfandel, Contra Costa County 2006 ($35/$105)
OR
Lonardi Giuseppe Valpolicella Ripasso 2007 ($25/$75)
OR
Mollydook er “The Boxer” Shiraz, McLaren Vale 2009 ($26/$78)
OR
Duckhorn Cabernet Sauvignon, Napa Valley 2006 ($65/$195)

5th course (pre-dessert) Pairing
Quinta do Crasto Late Bottled Vintage Porto 2005 ($70/$210)
OR
I Vignaioli di S. Stefano Moscato D’Asti, Santo Stefano Belbo 2009 ($25/$75)

So, your progression wouldn't go from Shiraz to Cab as both are in the same pairing category. You would go from Champagne, to Pinot Gris, to Chardonnay, to Pinot Noir, to Shiraz to Port etc...mildest to strongest.

The retail price to purchase the 6 bolded wines is $291. The restaurant price to purchase the 6 bolded wines is $873. Assuming the pours are 1/6th of a bottle, a glass of each would cost $145.50. The retail price is $48.50. Therefore $60 is only a small markup from retail (123%)

 

[TinkerBelle_325]

Alcohol ALWAYS has a huge mark-up no matter what restaurant you're at.

As for V&A, the pairings are especially nice if you don't really know wine, or don't have a particular favorite. When we do V&A, we always get the pairings.

To add: I SEEM to recall that at one time V&A had "Reserve" Wine pairings. Was a while back--does anyone recall that??

I have dined at V&A three times in the past year and I've never seen reserve pairings. That would be a very interesting option though!

 

[ElizabethB]

V&A used to offer a Domestic Wine Pairing and an Old World Pairing. They have not offered that choice for a number of years. I have not heard of the "reserve pairing" option.

We enjoyed a Far Niente cabernet with our main course recently as part of the wine pairing. Most restaurants would never offer Far Niente by the glass!

I do agree with Rusty that, if you drink (and like) white zin, skip the wine pairings.

 

[JimmyV]

I do disagree. The wines aren't chosen simply on vintage, price point etc. They are selected to compliment the elements of the dish.

I don't get your point. One can choose wines to complement the elements of a dish and still pick very good wines. The wines I listed are no better than "good".

Given your particular tastes, you don't sound the type to enjoy wine pairings.

Not necessarily so. I have enjoyed the wine pairings at the French Laundry and Per Se. They do an excellent job with their wines. My point is simply that V&A is a "white glove" restaurant with "Publix" wine pairings. That may appeal to many people, but it doesn't appeal to me. But that in no way drives the conclusion that I am not the type to enjoy wine pairings.

If you feel strongly about the progression of the wine, basing that opinion on the grape/wine varietal rather than the wine itself, then you might not be the best sounding board for someone interested in pairings.

I think you have this exactly backward. Wine pairings are all about progression. So someone who cares about progression is exactly the type of person who should be a "sounding board". Who would you prefer to be a sounding board....a person who has no knowledge, experience or interest in wines or their progression?

Restaurant markups for wine are upwards of 300% so you are most certainly getting more than $28 worth of wine. The pours are closer to 4 or 5 ounces, so you are getting 1/5th or 1/6th of a bottle.

Did you miss where I put in the word "retail" into my post? I never said that you were getting $28 of wine based on "by-the-glass" prices. Not even close. And did you miss where I said that the pairings were a "reasonable value" after factoring in markups? I never said that the pairing option was a bad financial deal. I said the opposite.

Additionally, you would never be served a shiraz before a cab sauv. Those two wines are in the same tasting category.

The menu that I was looking at did not have them as "either/or" options, but that could have been an error. In any event, there is nothing wrong with having a Syrah before a Cab. But a Mollydooker is a horse of a different color. That wine I would pour over blueberry pancakes.

From the WDW website V&A menu, with retail averages AND restaurant averages in brackets

$44...$23...$19...$30...$58...$20...$25...$31 (there is not way La Crema Pinot is $31. Kendall's in Miami has it for $22)...$35...$25...$26 (Mollydooker is easily obtained for $20-$22)...$65 (I have found a dozen places selling Duckhorn for $55)

Irrespective of whose price is right, you are largely making my point. The basic pairings are supermarket wines, whereas the wine list is stocked with gems. Is there value in the $60 pairings? Yes. Will you get a lot of wine? Yes. Is the wine good? Yes. So I think we are in total agreement up to this point. Ultimately, the customer has to decide if the wine is going to be up to the standards of the meal. That's a personal opinion. For me, the answer is no. Doesn't make me right. Doesn't make me wrong.

 

[TinkerBelle_325]

Your opinion of a good wine and a very good wine are just that: your opinion. Have you had dinner at V&A with the pairings?

What I was saying is that a wine you consider "good" maybe be "great" when paired with the appropriate dish. It is not only the food that compliments the wine, but vice versa as well.

Comparing V&A to French Laundry or Per Se is not a fair comparison. It is apples to oranges! French Laundry and Per Se are two of the top rated restaurants not just in the US but in the world. V&A is a fantastic meal, but nowhere even close to on par with those establishments.

I'm well aware that pairings are about progression and you conveniently left out my example of V&A's pairing from mildest to strongest wine. What I was saying is that progression isn't purely based on grape type. Take Chardonnay for example, an unoaked is an entirely different creature than an oaked varietal. As you mentioned, a Syrah would be acceptable before a cab sauvignon as it isn't as full bodied or jammy as the Shiraz listed.

We can agree to disagree on the "Publix" wine comment. A 2006 Duckhorn is not a Publix wine by any means.

The prices I sourced were from a site that averages across the entire country, by month.

I wasn't saying the pairings are "opus one" but they aren't "Publix".

And as an aside, French Laundry is upwards of $700/couple with 2 or 3 moderately priced half bottles of wine. V&A is approx $450.

 

[ElizabethB]

Taking a second look at the menu listing, JimmyV definitely has a point.

I agree that the current wine line-up -- as set out in this thread -- is not terribly interesting. Most bottles are in the $25 range with Duckhorn being the obvious (but not very exciting) exception.

 

[TwoIfBySea]

Knowing very little about wines, I might well have considered a wine pairing if I could get MUCH LESS of each wine (one ounce, perhaps?) so that altogether it was about one or one and a half glasses.

Of course, I could do that by just not finishing the wine, but I don't think I'm prepared to spend $60 for one or one and a half glasses of wine, even at V&A's.