are DVC members subsidizing disney room rentals?

hcb

Earning My Ears
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
7
I am concerned that we do not have the information to determine if what DVC members pay for points and maintenance subsidize Disney's cost to rent DVC units. For example, how many units are rented by Disney? Are DVC members
not able to get reservations because Disney has rented the rooms for its profit?
Do we subsidize the costs of the additional services room enters get?

Would appreciate comments and thoughts from all! Thank you.
 
Disney only retains a small percentage of ownership in sold out resorts. The vast majority of rooms available for cash reservations are from owners who trade outside the DVC system of resorts for cruises, etc. Those rooms MUST be rented for cash to help offset the cost of the trade, and yes, it will have some impact on availability...however, technically, those rooms ARE being used by a DVC member and traded for other locations. I think a larger impact on availability would be members reserving rooms they don't intend to use personally or for friends/family, but reserved for rentals.

For any point ownership retained by Disney or reacquired through ROFR and not immediately resold has maintenance fees paid by Disney.
 
So, as Chuck has explained Disney actually winds up subsidizing DVC.
 
I still dont have any real info. about what you have said. OKW, for example, is one of the resorts offered for room rentals to anyone wnating to come to Disney, not just members or members who trade. They cause wear and tear on the facilities, get additional room services when they are there and I still dont know if they have preference over a DVC member wanting a reservation. Please tell me where I get details...real information on my real estate interest.
 

As to whether Disney is actually cheating on controlling rooms for rental (e.g., such as renting out more than it has a right to do so), you really cannot determine without a full examination of the books accounting for exchanges, rentals of rooms. You are entitled to review accounting documents for the DVD portion of a resort but must call to request what you want to see and then make a visit to DVD's office to actually review anything.

As to whether we are legally to an extent subsidizing the rentals, the answer is yes:

DVD keeps a certain percentage of the ownership of the resort rooms/reservation time, 2% to 4% of the resort even when sold out. It can rent the time represented by its retained ownership interest. It also, as mentioned above, can rent time equivalent to points traded out. For both of those events DVD does not actually pay dues. It can also rent unreserved DVC rooms at 60 days or less out (called the "breakage" period). As to those breakage period rentals, DVD also does not pay dues but, after actual costs to DVD in doing the rental, the proceeds go to offset dues up to 2.5% of the annual operating budget for a resort; anything over the 2.5 goes to DVD entities.

The estimated annual dues per point are determined by including Disney's share of ownership. However, Disney does not actually pay its share, other than property tax when they actually become due, unless the amount paid by members is insufficient to cover all costs and amounts designated for reserves for the year. It can do that because it chooses each year to guarantee that it will cover costs in excess of the estimated dues paid by members and thus agrees not to have any special assessment (subject to certain disaster exceptions). Under the law, that choice allows it to avoid direct payment of dues for the year. It could ultimately end up paying some amounts but that just depends on whether the dues paid by members are insufficient to cover costs for the year. A lot of foreclosures resulting from lack of payment including of dues would likely be something that could result in Disney actually covering some costs in excess of dues collected at a sold out resort.

Thus, when DVD rents out its share of ownership, your dues are likely covering costs usually paid out of dues for the room, such as electrical costs that include those for the room but not daily made service. Moreover, when it rents rooms as a result of a trade-out or for the breakage period, the same member-usual costs are being covered by your dues. However, it bears the cost of doing rentals and bears the risk of not renting a room (which for the last two years or more has probably been a significant risk).
 
With any contract there is trust and we must trust DVC is not using our funds to support services provided to cash rooms and vice versa. This would be a simple formula as Disney would need to pay the same dues as all members on any points it used plus the fee for houskeeping which members would be charged if we so wanted this service. However being members get perks such as free internet pool hoping etc etc etc it is likely the members make out on rentals.
Being Disney is a Public Company you could hire a lawyer to have thier books subpoenaed if you have that much doubt. If you can show dues are used in this manner you can sue for the return of the amount of dues you paid that were misused.
We all own a right to use or a very small fraction of a room which is owned by 100's if not 1000's of "members" we do not own the land it is leased. a DVC ownership is not Real Estate.
 
But then we do have members just taking things off the housekeepers cart, asking for more towels without paying for them, taking pool towels instead of paying for another towel pack, etc. We're subsidizing the things those members take from DVC that they aren't entitled to.
 
We have contracts because trust is not a solid basis for business transactions. We do have a real estate interest. I simply want to protect that interest and the $ I am paying. Disney provides a wonderful experience but they are a very cash sensitive organization - they dont even have a general 800 number, thats one of our perks!

Can anyone tell me to whom to write to get the financial information needed to look at cost shifting between DVC member and Disney interests?
 
Can anyone tell me to whom to write to get the financial information needed to look at cost shifting between DVC member and Disney interests?

If it were me, I would start with the annual audit. Florida law requires that timeshare programs be audited annually by an independent body. If there are shenanigans going on, then either the auditors caught it, or they were fooled. If they were fooled, the chances that you can just inspect the accounting statements and detect impropriety are essentially zero, because you don't also have access to the backing records (invoices, bills, etc.) that the auditors would sample to verify the truth of the accounting statements.

Alternatively, you could just assume that the auditors are doing their job and checking up on things properly, because if the audit had turned up something shady, we would have heard about it in the Orlando Sentinel the very next day.
 
Alternatively, you could just assume that the auditors are doing their job and checking up on things properly, because if the audit had turned up something shady, we would have heard about it in the Orlando Sentinel the very next day.

A representative of the audit firm is present at the annual condo meeting in December. IIRC, they also field questions from members in attendance.

In 2010 the auditor confirmed that DVC received an "unqualified opinion" during the latest review. That's accounting-speak for "everything was found to be in compliance with Generally Accepted Accounting Principles."
 
You can also not run up everyone's dues by just assuming everything is done right according to Florida law. If you are the unsure of Disney then sell your contract and buy some other timeshare, I am sure the other guys are on the up and up.
 
A representative of the audit firm is present at the annual condo meeting in December. IIRC, they also field questions from members in attendance.

In 2010 the auditor confirmed that DVC received an "unqualified opinion" during the latest review. That's accounting-speak for "everything was found to be in compliance with Generally Accepted Accounting Principles."

This is taking me back to college! I haven't even thought of GAAP for years! :thumbsup2
 
You can also not run up everyone's dues by just assuming everything is done right according to Florida law. If you are the unsure of Disney then sell your contract and buy some other timeshare, I am sure the other guys are on the up and up.
;).


Given that Disney revolutionized the "vacation-ownership" industry -- point structure, non-"boiler room" sales practices -- and comparing the way DVC holds some value after twenty yearsresale to other timeshares on eBay for $1, you might want to give DVD some trust. Many of us have been critical of many of DVDs recent actions, but DVD has a ways to go just to match the standards for the more reputable parts of the timeshare industry, as GEB alludes to.
 
I don't think the audit looks at the use of the points, only at the dollars. Ultimately it does come down to a certain amount of trust and the "contract" is simply the guidelines. IF they want to screw the members, they can do so in many ways.

As for DVC doing it better, earlier, etc; I don't buy it. They haven't done anything new other than run a good timeshares and ride the coat tails of the parks and the name. There are certainly other good timeshares as well. IMO, DVD/DVC was given too much credit years ago and likely too little the last 2-3 years. I also believe that low key approach so many applaud has hurt the system and members more than it's helped them.
 
I don't think the audit looks at the use of the points, only at the dollars. Ultimately it does come down to a certain amount of trust and the "contract" is simply the guidelines. IF they want to screw the members, they can do so in many ways.

Agree. But at the same time, a layperson will not recognize procedural or accounting errors.

DVC isn't going to spoon-feed inconsistencies to anyone who stops by to look at the books. If something inappropriate is passing the auditors, it seems unlikely that even someone with an accounting background would learn much without spending many hours reviewing program operations and finances. And there are limits to the data that DVC will disclose.
 
Thank you and I agree that the next step is attending a meeting. However, my question has nothing to do with audited financials. I do not think Disney would do anything illegal. Rather, it is understanding the DVC process for cost allocation between their room rentals, our DVC units and application of our annual assessments. Any idea where I might get that information?
 
Again, if all was based on trust, Disney would not have had us sign contracts nor use them to assure that we are meeting our DVC obligations. I am simply trying to understand how our contractual agreement is being administered. Help anyone?
 



















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