Are Annual Dues separate from tax assessment amount due?

[Maistre Gracey]

They were special assessments to repay loans from DVD that were used to cover the insurance deductibles.

Can’t speak as of late, but we owned at VB during the big hurricane year (2004??) when the resort closed twice for repairs.
There was not a special assessment.

 

[zavandor]

I think if they were to allow owners access to their own points, it would not apply to everyone equally…maybe just Fall UYs…and would only be good for bookings 7 months or less, to give those with later UYs time…but, it also doesn’t have to be given to owners free. They could give owners the right to buy those points for the price of OTUs, just up to the number they own.

Now, there is technically a clause in the POS about them allowing owners of a resort that is unavailable to use points elsewhere which creates more than 1:1 use…that is what happened during shutdown when VGC didn’t open for an additional time…but, I don’t think that would apply when a resort ends…

I suspect we are going to see changes with to booking…reduce time when non owners can trade in…during the last few years. Ending banking and borrowing as well. As mentioned, I get DVD doesn’t know exactly the best way to handle it.

I do not think they can end borrowing. It would put owners of a December UY at a great disadvantage in using their points in the final year (as well as other late UYs). Unless they allow all owners to use their points only within the first two months of their UY. So a Feb UY could use their points only in February or March.

 

[RoseGold]

Unless they allow all owners to use their points only within the first two months of their UY. So a Feb UY could use their points only in February or March.

Are they allowed to do that?

 

[zavandor]

Are they allowed to do that?

I don't think so. It was only an example on how unjust would be to restrict Dec UY owners to use points only in two months.
I cannot see what suspending borrowing would accomplish, except infuriate a lot of people.

 

[Sandisw]

I do not think they can end borrowing. It would put owners of a December UY at a great disadvantage in using their points in the final year (as well as other late UYs). Unless they allow all owners to use their points only within the first two months of their UY. So a Feb UY could use their points only in February or March.

Legally, they can…since the rules specifically statw they can suspend both banking and borrowing to balance supply and demand…but, if they do that, I can see it being a few years ahead of time and not just that last year.

That is why I said if they decided to help out owners with certain UYs by giving access to their points it doesn’t have to be to everyone.

By limiting borrowing and banking it keeps a years worth of points with a years worth of rooms.

Of course, they could do absolutely nothing and let the chips fall where they may…there is nothing that has to happen to make it “fair”

But, my guess is that they will come up with something since they went out of their way to help owners during the closure…and there are plenty of creative options they could do if they want to.

 

[zavandor]

Suspending borrowing they cause a huge damage to some owners which have only 2 months to use their points and have to compete with everyone who is late using the points. It gives some owners 12 months to use the points, others 2, 3 and so on.
That why I say "they cannot", even if it's legal it doesn't mean is right.

And what is really the advantage of suspending borrowing? If members can use their points earlier, they free up "space" for others. Just with the extra points generated by the lockoff premium members might be able to use a good percentage of total points one year earlier, making things a little easier for everyone.

I can see the argument for suspending banking, but for borrowing it's only negatives.

 

[Sandisw]

Suspending borrowing they cause a huge damage to some owners which have only 2 months to use their points and have to compete with everyone who is late using the points. It gives some owners 12 months to use the points, others 2, 3 and so on.
That why I say "they cannot", even if it's legal it doesn't mean is right.

And what is really the advantage of suspending borrowing? If members can use their points earlier, they free up "space" for others. Just with the extra points generated by the lockoff premium members might be able to use a good percentage of total points one year earlier, making things a little easier for everyone.

I can see the argument for suspending banking, but for borrowing it's only negatives.

But isn’t the point that if everyone decides to borrow, then more points than rooms? …that is why it had to be adjusted during the pandemic.

No matter what they do, they have to balance rooms available for points in the system so that technically every point can be used…

That is why I think we will see a lot of options…like .non home resort window being very short….so those with 2042 owners will have a longer period to book their own resorts…it means one cant trade out either until that window….exchangin points with DVD points…suspension of banking and borrowing, whether to a smaller percent or full…or any other options that none of us can even think about.

But, the resort ends when it ends and there are only so many rooms that can be booked so without some level of control, you will have more than the 1:1 right to use for nights during those last few years.

 

[CarolMN]

Suspending borrowing they cause a huge damage to some owners which have only 2 months to use their points and have to compete with everyone who is late using the points. It gives some owners 12 months to use the points, others 2, 3 and so on.
That why I say "they cannot", even if it's legal it doesn't mean is right.

If they decide to limit banking and borrowing, the restrictions are likely to be put in place a few years prior to the end date. No matter what they decide todo, there will be some who will not be happy. For the last few years, the winners will be those who book early in the home resort priority period. Snooze & lose. (JMHO. YMMV).

 

[zavandor]

If they decide to limit banking and borrowing, the restrictions are likely to be put in place a few years prior to the end date. No matter what they decide todo, there will be some who will not be happy. For the last few years, the winners will be those who book early in the home resort priority period. Snooze & lose. (JMHO. YMMV).

But owners of a December UY won't be able to compete. If someone with a February UY will want to visit in December, they can start walking in February. Someone with a December UY cannot, because they cannot borrow.
Since December is a very popular time, a lot of people may try to book it for their final year with DVC. Owners of December UY simply cannot compete and cannot even book earlier, if borrowing is disabled. It's not a snooze ans lose situation. They cannot disabile borrowing (while disabling banking could actually be a good idea)

 

[CarolMN]

But owners of a December UY won't be able to compete. If someone with a February UY will want to visit in December, they can start walking in February. Someone with a December UY cannot, because they cannot borrow.
Since December is a very popular time, a lot of people may try to book it for their final year with DVC. Owners of December UY simply cannot compete and cannot even book earlier, if borrowing is disabled. It's not a snooze ans lose situation. They cannot disabile borrowing (while disabling banking could actually be a good idea)

Walking a December stay with a December use year is a problem even now. Those with other use years can start the walk prior to 12/1. That's why it's best to have a use year that begins a month or so prior to your vacation pattern if you need to walk your stay. I'm not understanding how not allowing borrowing prevents walking

For example, with a December use year, you can book December 2039 in January 2039. It uses 2039 points. If you have a February use year, you also book in January and use 2039 points. If borrowing is not allowed, both owners must use enough current use year points to book. There is no disadvantage to the December use year owner due to borrowing restrictions.

I agree that December use years are not optimal for those who need to walk a December reservation. But that has nothing to do with borrowing.

 

[RoseGold]

And what is really the advantage of suspending borrowing? If members can use their points earlier, they free up "space" for others. Just with the extra points generated by the lockoff premium members might be able to use a good percentage of total points one year earlier, making things a little easier for everyone.

The "advantage" to suspending borrowing is to Disney, and they are the ones making the rules. This isn't about where you can book. You should have gone to SSR in August, obviously.

So, you have a BW Jun UY and your points are only good starting Jun 2041 for months. That's lame, so you borrow them into July 2040 instead and use them, along with a couple OTU points to carefully use all your points at the very end. Dues come around Jan 2041, and why would you pay? Normally, they foreclose the contract, no big deal. But now, the contract is worthless. It literally has zero points. Go ahead and foreclose. This is a problem Disney very much cares about. If they suspend borrowing, you can't get those points without paying. You also can't pool your points to use the points the way you wanted to on that last trip, but that's a you problem.

This problem might actually show up years before expiration if dues get high enough. It might cost Disney more to foreclose than the contracts are even worth. Right now, that's crazy, of course you'd want points if they just cost dues. But if the dues get high enough to flip the math, that's very much Disney's problem. If that problem shows up, I think it will be at Vero.

And July 2040 isn't that far away.

 

[zavandor]

Walking a December stay with a December use year is a problem even now. Those with other use years can start the walk prior to 12/1. That's why it's best to have a use year that begins a month or so prior to your vacation pattern if you need to walk your stay. I'm not understanding how not allowing borrowing prevents walking

For example, with a December use year, you can book December 2039 in January 2039. It uses 2039 points. If you have a February use year, you also book in January and use 2039 points. If borrowing is not allowed, both owners must use enough current use year points to book. There is no disadvantage to the December use year owner due to borrowing restrictions.

I agree that December use years are not optimal for those who need to walk a December reservation. But that has nothing to do with borrowing.

I am only talking about the last year of a resort and I am saying that suspending borrowing severely damages owners of a December UY and others with late UY.
If borrowing is suspended, then owners of a December UY will only have December 2041 and January 2042 to use their points. But they'll be in competition with everyone else who have an earlier UY and want the holidays for their last trip. And the others can walk the reservations, while Dec owners cannot.
Suspending borrowing is not a viable solutions because puts some owners at greater risk of losing their points.

In many posts regarding the expiration year I always read that Disney can suspend banking and borrowing. While I agree with banking, suspending borrowing is not fair.

@RoseGold Is right, if they allow borrowing, then they also have to find a solution for last year MF, that's why a few posts ago I said that in order to borrow in the final years they might ask to pay MF in advance ot maybe keep enough capital reserve to cover last year MF.

Or, another solution could be to allow to use points after expiration, at other resorts or at the home resort which is kept open and maintained by Disney. It would be very generous and maybe they'll do it.

 

[drusba]

They cannot just cancel banking or borrowing completely. However, they can suspend either or both indefinitely in situations it is believed needed because of anticipated excess demand. We do not know what DVC will do with the Jan 2042 resorts towards the end. I suspect, beginning a few years before 2042 , DVC will suspend banking but not borrowing for BWV, BCV and BRV. How much of an excess demand issue that may create is not known, but members are likely not to be completely locked out just because of a late use year such as Dec. They can always attempt 7-month-out reservatons at other resorts.

A problem I anticipate is OKW. It will not be expiring. What will be happening is that a very large number of owners will be having their ownerships expire. DVC cannot really suspend banking or borrowing there because any such suspension would have to apply to all of its owners not just the interests expiring in 2042. Possibly a few years before 2042, DVD may offer some discount deal that would allow those with interests expiring to extend to the 2057 end date.

 

[Sandisw]

But owners of a December UY won't be able to compete. If someone with a February UY will want to visit in December, they can start walking in February. Someone with a December UY cannot, because they cannot borrow.
Since December is a very popular time, a lot of people may try to book it for their final year with DVC. Owners of December UY simply cannot compete and cannot even book earlier, if borrowing is disabled. It's not a snooze ans lose situation. They cannot disabile borrowing (while disabling banking could actually be a good idea)

I don’t think that there is any question that those with Dec UY and an expiration at the end of January are in a different position than those with different ones.

But, this is still about the fact that the points have to go with rooms and the more points you pull forward, the worse the imbalance will be. Someone still loses..just changes who that might be.

There is not going to be a way to make it equal or even fair in the eyes of everyone, especially when you hafe a FCFS system.

And, we are not guaranteed any room size and even those Dec UY owners will be able to use points at 11 months at their home resort, especially if banking and borrowing is limited, and non home resort owners are not allowed to book until much later.

Granted, it may not be the exact dates you want or the rooms size you want, but something because no resort is shut out if every room ever at 11 months, and as long as owners do that, it shouldn’t be an issue. Two months is still a decent number of days to use up points.

They also have the option the special list option if they wanted to for thst last December.

I get walking could impact things, but it does now and it’s the nature of it all. Think if all those week based timeshares out there that were closed during the pandemic and those owners just “lost” out.

Another option is that they could to slowly chsnge up points charts those last 5 years or so to get the October to December nights be point heavy…

As I said, they have a lot of options to help best they can..but in the end, they could do nothing too and just let everyone fight it out.

It comes down to the fact that what we bought has an end date and those last few years might require a lot of flexibility for owners to be able to use up the last year if points.

 

[zavandor]

I don’t think that there is any question that those with Dec UY and an expiration at the end of January are in a different position than those with different ones.

But, this is still about the fact that the points have to go with rooms and the more points you pull forward, the worse the imbalance will be. Someone still loses..just changes who that might be.

There is not going to be a way to make it equal or even fair in the eyes of everyone, especially when you hafe a FCFS system.

And, we are not guaranteed any room size and even those Dec UY owners will be able to use points at 11 months at their home resort, especially if banking and borrowing is limited, and non home resort owners are not allowed to book until much later.

Granted, it may not be the exact dates you want or the rooms size you want, but something because no resort is shut out if every room ever at 11 months, and as long as owners do that, it shouldn’t be an issue. Two months is still a decent number of days to use up points.

They also have the option the special list option if they wanted to for thst last December.

I get walking could impact things, but it does now and it’s the nature of it all. Think if all those week based timeshares out there that were closed during the pandemic and those owners just “lost” out.

Another option is that they could to slowly chsnge up points charts those last 5 years or so to get the October to December nights be point heavy…

As I said, they have a lot of options to help best they can..but in the end, they could do nothing too and just let everyone fight it out.

It comes down to the fact that what we bought has an end date and those last few years might require a lot of flexibility for owners to be able to use up the last year if points.

Because of the lockoff premium, more points can be used every year. If savvy owners will try to use their points as soon a possible, some space will be freed up in the last year just because of that.
Also, if they allow borrowing, someone may still lose points, but everyone is on equal grounds. If they block borrowing, Dec UY are at the greatest disadvantage, to the point that when their 11 months window opens nothing might be available. Also, some resorts are heavy on Dec points, even worst for them.

Maybe the solution in the final year could be just give points to everyone in February, as soon as they've paid MF in full. So everyone has the same amount of time to use their points.

 

[Sandisw]

Because of the lockoff premium, more points can be used every year. If savvy owners will try to use their points as soon a possible, some space will be freed up in the last year just because of that.
Also, if they allow borrowing, someone may still lose points, but everyone is on equal grounds. If they block borrowing, Dec UY are at the greatest disadvantage, to the point that when their 11 months window opens nothing might be available. Also, some resorts are heavy on Dec points, even worst for them.

Maybe the solution in the final year could be just give points to everyone in February, as soon as they've paid MF in full. So everyone has the same amount of time to use their points.

That change of UY could be a good solution..but, I can tell you that there has never been any day at any point of time in December that every room is sold out for the day and I don’t know any all of a sudden in those last few years it would be, especially if banking and borrowing are suspended.

I am sure all of this will be thought of by DVD and I do think they will do what they can..but even something like making everyone’s UY to the same in 2041

I bet some would say a Dec UY benefits in having basically double the points to use at thst last year since 2040 points come Dec 1st…and then they get the next one so soon.

And, of course, some would disagree. That is why I said no matter what they do it won’t been seen as equitsble or fair to everyone.

What you think makes sense may not be what I think makes sense and outside DVD changing nothing, it’s ultimately going to be whatever plan they decide will help the most.

 

[zavandor]

I don't think Disney will just leave a eat or get eaten fight in the last year, not because of corporate benevolence, but because they'll want to continue to sell DVC and the wouldn't like the bad publicity. So they'll find a solution. But yet, whatever the solution, allowing people to use points at the earliest (allowing borrowing) will help.

 

[Sandisw]

I don't think Disney will just leave a eat or get eaten fight in the last year, not because of corporate benevolence, but because they'll want to continue to sell DVC and the wouldn't like the bad publicity. So they'll find a solution. But yet, whatever the solution, allowing people to use points at the earliest (allowing borrowing) will help.

And see, you see letting borrowing continue as a plus and I don’t. ..and I am a Dec UY owner thst will be faced with it at some point in the future.

But to be fair, they have data..just don’t know how legally you can collect dues ahead of tjme and if borrowing continues as it is, you very well may have people who borrow 2041 into 2040 for use and bail on the 2041 dues since they don’t have any left.

That is why whatever they do isn’t going to please everyone...I guess we have about 15 or so years until we have an idea of what they could be thinking.