Anxiety, Bipolar disorders in children???(long vent)

[Pembo]

DS is almost 8 yo. We've known since he was 4 that is mild ADHD. At that time our psychologist also said he had some compulsive/obsessive behaviors and some anxiety. This past summer he became depressed. A new psychologist, (we moved), and time and he is not showing any of those symptoms.

However, the last month or so he has been so angry. His moods seem to get the best of him. My brother was here over Xmas and he is bi-polar. He thinks ds may have that. The psychologist said that our problems with him currently are not ADHD but anxiety related.

At our last appt with her, she told me "You are doing everything the books say to do. Just keep at it". This is NOT helpful advice. Obviously it isn't working that's why I'm there. This isn't the first time I've heard a so-called expert tell me I'm doing all the right things. ARGH! She has been working with him on his anger. But obviously it's not working. He can tell me all the things she tells him to do but he can't do any of them when he gets upset.

Last night we had an episode! He couldn't get control of himself. He just kept yelling and crying. After almost 2 hours of battling, I finally put him in the car and told him we were going to the hospital where they would give him medicine to calm him down. After driving around the neighborhood for a few mins, he calmed down and begged to go home. Which we did.

This morning he was exhausted. I tried to be the best mommy I could and yet he was yelling at me only minutes after he got up. Doesn't set a good tone for the day.

Before Xmas when he was being so horrible to us, his teacher said he was excellent in school. When I told her that we were having very rough times at home, she was quite surprised.

I'm not sure what my point is except that I'm very frustrated. I keep looking into the future and seeing horrible scenarios with my son. Any advice anyone has will be greatly appreciated. And thanks for listening....if you are still with me!

 

[Dancind]

Hugs to you, Pembo. It is so hard to raise a special needs child. We have been through some of this as well. I found that my DD gets very anxious when things are not going well for her at school or with friends, and it tends to snowball. We have had to make some changes a couple of times (different teacher, homeschool one year) to make things better. She has also been through some really tough times due to medication. The Dr. thought she should try Adderall last year, and it took me a while to figure out that her growing irritability and depression were linked to that, since it was gradual. I hesitate to tell you to visit the Dr., since my DD's previous Dr. always wanted to put her on more medication such as antidepressants. Yikes! Every kid is different, but one thing that has really helped her has been twice daily doses of fish oil! Carlson Norwegian Salmon oil is what I give her, and no, I don't sell it. But is has helped her avoid antidepressants, at least for now. Diana

 

[HauntedMansionGeek]

I feel for you and can only really offer up some hugs this morning. Wish I had some advice but it sounds like you're doing all that you can, frustrating as it is.
Parenting is hard work, but you add all the other life events into the mix and it can almost seem an impossible task at times.

I'm sorry that you're experiencing some of the tough stuff with your child.

 

[tkd lisa]

Boy this sounds like my daughter at that age! I can remember sitting in a McDonald's parking lot while she just screamed at her brother that he was stupid and she hated him. It seemed like he was a convenient scapegoat for her moods! She also got really bad headaches. For us, Thursdays were always the days from you know where! It seemed the pressure from the week just built up til she couldn't handle it by Thursday afternoon.

We still have some issues, but what we did at that time was (Hold on, cause it's a laundry list!)

- Got her eyes checked. Turned out she needed glasses, not badly, but the strain was causing headaches and adding to her frustration.
- Changed teachers. Her teacher at that age was one of the most experienced, but she had a lot of tough kids, and the combination wasn't working well with our daughter. A new teacher who was in her first year of teaching turned out to be the right mix for our daughter. She seemed to be more able to roll with the moods and not let the problems get to a crisis. When the school frustration lessened, the home frustration lessened as well.
- Switched to a time delayed ADHD medicine. Up til then she had been on 10 mg of ritalin in the morning, 5 at noon, and 5 after school (she probably weighed about 50 pounds at that time). We switched to concerta once a day, and the time delayed function gave her a bit more control, and less spikiness through the day.
- Got a prescription for Xanax as needed. She only takes 1/2 a pill, even now. I was very hesitant to use it at first, but giving her something to prevent the crisis from starting is a whole lot better than dealing with the outcome! She probably takes a 1/2 xanax every other week, so it's not a habit thing.
- Did some counseling with a therapist to give her someone else to vent to (and we got to vent some too!)
- Had her join a peer counseling group at school because peer relationships were very difficult for her (she's very intense, and pushes lots of kids away). Our elementary also had the special needs students for the county, so that option might not be available for you.

Good luck. If you need to vent to a friendly ear, feel free to pm or email me. Hugs! Lisa

 

[phamton]

Childhood bi-polar and adult bi-polar do not have the same symptoms. Also the characteristics of both ADHD and bi-polar are very similar. There is even somewhat of a debate between the ADD and bi-polar groups on which is which. The ADD group says that most adults diagnosed with bi-polar are really suffering from adult ADD. And the bi-polar group thinks that many kids diagnosed with ADHD are actually suffering from childhood bi-polar.

I do think there is a connection between the two and both appear to be hereditary. My husband is bi-polar and my youngest son is ADHD (although the last two years my son has been off medication and doing fine now). Hopefully someone on the board can give you more help than me. I do have a good friend whose son is bi-polar and she really knows a lot on the subject of bi-polar kids and also offers suppport for families going through that. Feel free to PM me and I can get you in touch with her, if you need more answers.

 

[pnelson]

My son has had problems with ADHD with anxiety and anger. At times, they thought he was bipolar, but he doesn't have some significant factors. In the past, he has not responded well to traditonal ADHD medicines or bipolar medicines-They made him moodier. What has worked for his "anger" connections is Risperdal and Tenex. Also, we have had to work a lot on our responses to him-It can be very difficult dealing with a child who is continually moody. It seems that when you take the hyperactivity away from him, we are left with moodiness-Yet I can't stand the moodiness and the hyperactivity is out of control-It's a no win situation.

 

[DocRafiki]

What does your psychologist say when you tell her you need more?

I don't have any experience with childhood disorders since I wasn't treated until I got my own help in college. But, from my decade of going through umpteen different doctors, therapists, counselors, and medications, I know that there is only so much they can do.

I would wonder how often he's seeing the psychologist. Whenever things aren't working for me, the answer is always more frequent visits (I can't afford to go as often as they recommend now that I'm paying, and they couldn't offer me as much as I needed when I was getting state-supported help). Your psych. may know that you need more but may be limited by insurance, funds, etc.

You also said, "Obviously it isn't working; that's why I'm here." Are you only going when things aren't working? If so, it seems apparent that the problem is that he's not getting the maintenance therapy he needs. All of the psycho practitioners that I've seen have told me that meds w/out therapy just don't work for chronic patients.

Have you seen a psychiatrist? When I started paying for myself, I switched from a combo of psychologist/psychiatrist to just seeing a psychiatrist. Before, the psychiatrist would take 30 seconds to read the psychologist's notes and would prescribe meds. When I started getting therapy AND meds from the same person, I felt more like I was getting the best possible meds for my situation. Before, I felt like I was going with the luck of the draw. That might just be my erroneous perception, though.

What about in-patient care? When things are so bad that you can't follow the suggestions given, I've been recommended for in-patient care. I refused due to cost. Maybe your psychologist has considered it for your son but not mentioned it due to cost, etc. or the need to take him out of school. Or maybe they just don't recommend that for children. I don't know.

Just my thoughts. Like I said, I'm just a "consumer."

 

[Chim Chiminy]

My DS10 was diagnosed at age 5 with ADHD, underlying BiPolar Disorder. Doctors still have not ruled out the Bi Polar, and both disorders run on both sides of the family. Like Dancind, we tried him on Adderall and it was a disaster. Within a month he was pulled off of it and put on Ritalin and we have had no problems with it. He also takes a very low dose of Risperdal.
He tends to be very sensitive, to sound, to touch. I have read that often that is the case with kids like ours. He has a difficult time with peer relations, doesn't like group activities and such.
Before he was diagnosed a therapist gave us a wonderful book called 1-2-3 Magic, which we still use to this day. It is by Thomas W. Phelan. I recommend it to everyone. It really helps us with the argueing, whining, tantrums and such.
When I sense that my son may be heading for a meltdown, one of the things I do is take him into his room. I keep the light off, no noise, and have him lay down. Then I massage his neck and back. Sometimes it is just that the stress has built up in them and they don't know how to release it. I have found that the massage is also good for bedtime, because he has some sleep disturbance issues and I really don't want to medicate him at bedtime.
If I can't get him into his room, I do a trick his daycare teachers taught me years ago. I pull him onto my lap and wrap my arms around him, holding tight. Then I talk softly to him. Sometimes he will struggle, but eventually he is able to calm himself down.

One thing to remember too, is often they are able to "keep it together" at school, then they explode at home. Our former therapist said that is because school is not a safe place for their emotions. So they try all day to hold it in. Then once they are safe at home, with people who will love them no matter what, they let it out.

We also had a therapist, when we moved up here three years ago, who told us that we were doing everything right. He questioned us on our previous therapists' work (she did play therapy with Neth and was wonderful!), he didn't believe in play therapy. After two sessions he told us we were just insecure as parents! We never went back to him. We still don't have a therapist here where we are stationed. I keep hoping things are better at our next duty station.

If you are not getting it already, I recommend the Bipolar Child newsletter. The last newsletter had a fascinating study on bipolar disorder in Amish children. bipolarchild.com It is from Dr. Dimitri Papolos, one of the countries foremost experts on early onset bipolar disorder. He also has several books out on the subject.

Just like you Pembo, there are times when I think about the future and I want to cry. But we keep on doing the best we can, as I am sure you are with your son. Hang in there!

 

[pnelson]

Another book you might try is "The Explosive Child". I saw it on Oprah a few years ago. It is very good. It doesn't deal specifically with any one disorder, but rather the behaviors that result-whether it be ADHD or bipolar or whatever. The thing I've learned is that it is a constant, things will get better for a while, and we may slack off on some of our structured behavior modifications, then things get worse again. It is definitely not easy to parent a challenging child. He is getting to the age where I am wondering what the teenage years and hormones will bring. I've actually heard that some kids get better as they start to mature, etc. I guess there's hope.

 

[SeaSpray]

DS12 was a very difficult child when he was younger. At the age of 4, I truly thought he had ADHD. Our pediatrician felt we had enough concerns that he referred to us a pediatric neurologist. The ped. neurologist examined him and questioned us as to his behaviours. At that age, before he was even in pre-school, the doctor's findings were inconclusive. He basically told us that our DS did have some symptoms of ADHD, and to see how did in a structured environment, such as school. DS12 went to pre-school two 1/2 days a week and did fine. He went to kindergarten a year later and did fine. (In fact, up until his first day of kindergarten, he was unable to just lie down at night and go to sleep. He'd be running around late at night telling us that he couldn't stop. On the night of his first day of kindergarten, he actually went to bed at his bedtime and STAYED in bed. I still consider that to be a miracle. lol And he has never had a problem going to bed at his bedtime, ever since!) He has never had a problem in school, but during those years he was still very difficult at home. I also HIGHLY RECOMMEND the book or video called "1-2-3 Magic". The advice in it seemed way too simplistic, and I was hesitant to try it, but friends had said they had success with it, so I gave it a try. You have to follow it exactly, and be persistant with it, but it worked!! He's now in 7th grade, has ALWAYS been an honor roll student, extremely well-behaved in school, and his "symptoms" of ADHD that he exibited years ago have faded, although he can be high-strung at times. I also feel he has a mild case of Asperger's, but that's another story. Fortunately, whether my DS12 has a mild form of either ADHD and/or Aspberger's, it does not control or interfere with his or our lives at all anymore. My heart truly goes out to the children and parents into who's lives these problems intrude

Anyway....Just wanted to add my recommendation for "1-2-3 Magic"

 

[snoopy]

My boys aren't ADHD, but I swear by the 1-2-3 Magic form of discipline. I think that book can be used by parents of children with or without ADHD.

Another one that I love is "Raising Your Spirited Child". My oldest has always been a very intense sort of child, his moods are very evident (unlike his younger brother who is very even keeled), and I learned so much about him, and how to respond to his moods, from this book.

Best of luck, Pembo. I don't blame you for being upset, I would definately not appreciate a doctor saying "just keep doing what you are doing" when I am paying them for advice.

 

[DISNEYFANRI]

My son, 15, was just diagnosed last year with both ADHD and anxiety disorder. His doctors were quick to point out that these were 2 very seperate issues and having him diagnosed "late" it would be hard to tell which came first or triggered the other. They also stressed that his meds (started with strattera and now on Concerta) were for the ADHD only and would not effect his anxiety symptoms. The greatest difficulty that he has with anxiety now is insomnia...poor kid he hardly ever sleeps.
It's a daily learning process but I can tell you that things are much improved since his diagnosis - hang in there - I will think good thoughts for you and your family.

Paula

 

[pnelson]

Well, not to be negative, but I am one that 1-2-3 Magic did not work for, unfortunately. My husband and I took the class, rented the video and read the book. My son would still fly into a rage when he was told to go to timeout. One thing about my son that is difficult, is he doesn't seem to learn from prior consequences. So, no matter how many times we put him in a timeout, it was almost like each day was a brand new day for him and it would start over. In fact, I wrote about this when we went to Disney World and I wrote in a thread that he acted like a "spoiled brat" on vacation. Even though we took things away, put him in timeouts, etc. he still does not seem to learn from consequences. The best we have succeeded with so far is to be as "routine" as possible, no matter what.

 

[cgcw]

I am so sorry you are having a tough time with your son. It must be very difficult to go through.

Two of my brothers suffer from bi-polar disorder. Both of my brothers problems became more prominent after the death of our father. My one brother was in his late teens and the other was in his late 20's. In talking to other relatives, I know now there is a strong family history of chemical imbalances in our family. I pray that neither of my sons will ever have to deal with it themselves.

I am sending prayers and good thoughts that this is just a terrible "phase" he's going through. I wish you and him the best.

 

[amid chaos]

Another vote of confidence for the book "Raising Your Spirited Child"..saved me lots of heartache with my middle child.

 

[momof2OH]

First of all...Hugs to you Pembo~ I've been dealing with the ADHD monster for about 9 years among other "little" monsters, Bipolar, Aniexty , OCD. Both of my children are ADHD/ADD and Bipolar (as well as others). It can be very tough at times. Basicly, you have to find what works for your own individual child. It's not an easy process, but when you do find what works and the ugly little monsters stop showing themselves as much, you know it was all worth it.

Since I'm also from NE Ohio, I have talked to a lot of people, doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists and have several books and other resources. If you ever need to talk or need info, please PM me anytime.

 

[Mermaid02]

My almost 7 year old was diagnosed with "generalized anxiety disorder with ruminating, obsessive worries" just this fall. He has been on Paxil since the end of October and many of his symptoms have all but disappeared... BUT his therapist and pediatrician are both putting a question mark beside ADHD..... and contrary to what another poster said, our therapist and pediatrician both said that the 2 often go together, but in a child with anxiety, the ADHD symptoms often disappear when the anxiety is under control. My son's behavior has (control wise- in other words, he wants to CONSTANTLY be in control) has definately not gotten better. After the battle we had tonight, I feel at the end of my rope.

You aren't alone Pembo- more people than you know are going through the same issues. Feel free to PM me any time.

 

[Pembo]

Thank you all so much for your responses and suggestions.

First, I have read 1-2-3 Magic and Raising Your Spirited Child as well as The Difficult Child and MANY others. Everything works and nothing works for ds. We have tried so many things and they work, for awhile, then for whatever reason it won't work anymore. I guess that is the ADHD part~can't focus too long on any one thing.

pnelson-I read your spoiled brat at WDW thread and I lived part of your vacation with ds last month. I also had a thread about ds thinking the world revolves only around him.

Today he has been an angel! Got off the school bus with his gloves on, hood up and coat zipped. Was very pleasant and polite. Told me his teacher said he had an excellent day. Did his homework, chatted with me. Played nice with his brother. Ate a great dinner. I couldn't ask for a more perfect child. But the memory of last night is still there.......... We complimented him on today, never mentioned yesterday. Lots of praise........it's working, for today.

Chim Chimney-your comments about keeping it together at school and then exploding at home are so true! I do think the pressure to do well all day just builds and he blows up on us.

I have a call into a couple psychiatrists. momof2oh, check your pm. A local resource is an answer to my prayers. Thanks everyone and keep those suggestions coming......we all need it!

 

[tmli]

From a very young age I knew my ds(now 7 1/2) was "different" then other kids. He was diagnosed with ADHD, OCD, and a fear/anxiety disorder when he was 5. He has major sensory issues--loud noises, smells, textures. He was so afraid of bugs that he tried to jump out of my moving truck on the highway because a fly was in the backseat. He would never sleep--I mean never--once went 6 weeks sleeping only 1-2hrs in a 24hr period. He is extremely bright and gets good grades in school.

We have had a number of dr's and therapists over the years, I believe we cuurently have the best mix. We have a child psychiatrist( a former pedatrician), a psychometrist, and a pedatrician. I also have excellent resources at the school and from the school board. I have once a month meetings at my ds's school with teacher, principal, school board youth workers and at least one or two of his medical professionals. He currently takes time released dexedrine, paxil and clonindine(to help him to relax at night and get sleep--still only gets 4-6 hrs).

I am in total control of his meds, I get the dr's recommended dosage, the max. allowed for his weight and they I start at the smallest dose and work up. My pharmacist is also a great resource. He currently takes half of the max for his weight.

I can honestly say making sure my ds has all the help he needs to lead a "normal" life is a full time job...we seem to get everything ironed out and all of a sudden everything changes and we start again.

He has just been diagnosed with Aspergers (scored very high on diagnostic testing), this has really filled in a lot of gaps for us. Has actually opened up more doors for us as far as support and school funding goes.

My best advice to you would be if you don't feel you are getting the help you need with your current psychologist, then find another one. Every one tells me it will get easier/better, I don't know if I believe that. As my ds gets older there actually seems to be more to be concerned with. I totally understand your frustration...sometimes I feel like I could scream.

It's a sort of process to come to the point where you feel you have all the professional help in order, get the school situation figured out and find a way to have a home life all at the same time. I'm currently there--for now. All I can say is you will eventually get there too....it's not any less work, but somehow it is less stressful if that makes sense.

Our ds actually gets very little therapy at this point, it causes him more anxiety and at this point he really isn't "there". However I go to his therapists weekly to help me cope and in turn help him cope. I get great strategies for dealing with his needs and behaviours.

Our therapist told us being a great parent isn't enough with kids like ours you need to be an exceptional parent....Good luck to you, it is so frustrating but it can also be very rewarding. My ds is an absolute delight and I wouldn't change a thing about him.

 

[tmli]

After reading your last post I wanted to add how much I can relate to that. We've tried it all and everything works for awhile, then it stops. My ds actually will put himself in timeout!! We used 123 magic until this one time in wdw...he was misbehaving and I started to count, I told him if I got to 3 he would lose his gameboy for one day...he asked me if I counted to 14 could he then lose it for 18 days!!!LOL!

He has absolutely no ability to assess risk and consequence.