Angered at Montreal - rant

[JoeThaNo1Stunna]

It doesn't matter who they thought was on the bus, that is totally inappropriate. They shouldn't assume, because we know what that makes you. The American flag represents more than the war.

Also the other team taunted them on the ice, as well as the Canadian parents/fans.

 

[Geoff_M]

damo,

While I don't think all Canadians should be painted with the same brush, I think you're under-playing what happened. For starters, you can't assume the bus windows were tinted. Even if they were, the tinting would unlikely prevent the protesters from seeing who was on the bus, especially those sitting next to the windows. Also, unless the coach and his players are lying, they were subjected to additional verbal abuse at their tournement game by fans in the stands and the kids on the other team.

The bottom line is the protesters and the hockey parents that egged their kids on were outta line.

 

[RichardG]

Oh boy !

I can't believe what I've been reading on these boards. I don't usually answer or post any replies but I feel it is now time I do.

Yes I am a Quebecois and I am proud of what I am. I am also a French-Canadian and also very proud of being one. Can you imagine, a Quebecois proud of being Canadian ? Well guess what, I am not the only one.

I don't agree with anything that happened. Booing kids is wrong, it doesn't matter if they are American, Canadian, Chinese...

Booing a national anthem is wrong. Guess what ? It's an international thing, I have seen it it different countries around the world, at different events. Yes the american anthem was booed....did you know that americans in Atlanta booed the canadian anthem 2 nights after, during a game against the Ottawa Senators ? 2 wrongs don't make a right. Let's get over it.

And here is the main reason why I am writing this post. Some people here have to read a little more about History before they speak.

French-Canadians are NOT supporters of France. Our origines may be from France, but let me tell you...it doesn't mean we agree with them more. We share the same language but we certainly don't share the same ideas. I know what I'm talking about. I'm sure you all know that a lot of Americans have french roots, does that mean they support France ? How about those who have german roots ?

It's so amazing to see people generalize when it comes to french-canadians. Read about it before you talk about it. Get all the facts.

There are bad people everywhere just like there are good people everywhere. We should never forget that.

Richard

 

[Geoff_M]

I agree the childishness needs to stop on all sides. I was glad to hear the American coach ordered his parents on the bus to stop "returning fire" against the protesters and they heeded the request.

 

[damo]

Well, you guys can believe want you want from the American press but I will believe what I have read in the Canadian press and the coach of the team accused says he is not aware of any America bashing. Taunting between kids is part of hockey. Nowhere have I read that the parents at the rink taunted the kids about being American.

Joe Stunna, if a Canadian bus drives through a pro-war demonstration are you telling me that the people are going to cheer it? It would get exactly the same response as the American bus did at the anti-war demonstration in Montreal. The bus was a touring coach. They have tinted windows. I think it is pretty safe to assume. Also the protesters are shorter than the bus, and are seeing it from a distance. I doubt very, very much that they knew who was in it.

I think that way too much is being read into this. It was a series of events. Each one in itself incorrect, but to say that this was a deliberate attack against children by adults is an exaggeration.

I believe that the bus was gestured towards. I believe that the anthem was booed at the NHL game. I believe that the teams exchanged anti-American and anti-Canadian taunts. All of these things are wrong, but I do not believe that this is an international incident of Canadian adults vs American children. Although I can not say the the first has happened in the States but since our flag has been burned in U.S. arena parking lots, and trampled on in arena dressing room floors, then that can't be much different. I can say that the second two definitely have happened since my family has experienced them.

My point is that unless the U.S. is innocent of all of these incidents then people should stop pointing fingers and saying how shameful Canadians are. WE ARE ALL SHAMEFUL!!!

 

[Geoff_M]

Well, you guys can believe want you want from the American press...

I'm not getting it from "the press", I saw it in about a 5 minute live interview with the American coach and two of his players. If you wish to say the Coach and kids are lying, then be my guest. What I saw wasn't filtered or spun by the "American press".

The bus was a touring coach. They have tinted windows. I think it is pretty safe to assume. Also the protesters are shorter than the bus, and are seeing it from a distance. I doubt very, very much that they knew who was in it.

I have been part of youth group trips on such buses with tinted windows... and I can assure you from incidents that took place on those trips that people outside the bus, and even right up next to it, can see the people seated next to the window (and what they are doing, btw!) on the inside. Those windows are sun tinted, not privacy tinted.

...but to say that this was a deliberate attack against children by adults is an exaggeration.

No one has suggested that a bunch of adults said "Hey, let's go find a group of Americans that contains a bunch it kids and attack them!" I'd venture that the protesters didn't know who was aboard the bus when they first directed their scorn against it, but I have no doubt that they could tell that there were a mixture of adults and kids on the bus as it drew near, but by then they were "caught up in the moment". As for the hockey game, you don't have to look too hard to find examples of parents in the stands making less-than-nice comments about players on the other team in youth hockey leagues.

...and trampled on in arena dressing room floors

That was a rumor used to motivate the Canadian team and wasn't supported one iota of proof or personal statement that it really happened. Please don't cite baseless rumors as fact.

I agree that all such documented actions are childish, regardless of who does them. But that doesn't mean that you have to minimize it when it does take place.

 

[chernabog]

Very nicely put, Geoff. Now, I wasn't trying make this an international incident. I was simply speaking as a parent of two young kids and how I would have felt if those were my children. The Montreal incident aside,I am disgusted by the outrageous protests that have been going on throughout the world, including the United States. I am disgusted by the 'treasonous" comments made by the Columbia University professor, wishing that "a thousand Mogadishus" occur against our troops. I am enraged at the French and German governments, who now want to be part of a rebuilding process, when they couldn't even find a shred of courage to simply back the U.S. Not sending troops, but just back us. And for those of you wondering why France is so hot to trot in the rebuilding process, former NY Senator Alfonso D'Amato stated it in the simplest of terms on Saturday, France wants to protect their contract with the various oil companies, bottom line! And I am angered when I see a California protestor being interviewed by Jay Leno and they don't even know what their protest sign says! She believed that they were protesting WELFARE changes not WARFARE Duh!

I'm not war-monger and certainly don't like to see our country's soldier die! But I believe that this war has brought out more random acts of stupidity than ever seen before!
The next time there is a war in Europe, the loser has to keep France!

 

[damo]

Originally posted by Geoff_M
[ As for the hockey game, you don't have to look too hard to find examples of parents in the stands making less-than-nice comments about players on the other team in youth hockey leagues.

-We find that in American rinks too. I was in Detroit lately at the Joe Dumars arena. Parents in the stands were cutting our Canadian kids up left and right. Funny thing though, I didn't go home and ask for a press conference-

Originally posted by Geoff_M
That was a rumor used to motivate the Canadian team and wasn't supported one iota of proof or personal statement that it really happened. Please don't cite baseless rumors as fact.

-The American team says it was rumour, the Canadian team says it was fact. I guess you can believe who you want. It certainly worked to motivate the girls. You aren't denying the burning of the Canadian flag though?

Originally posted by Geoff_M
I agree that all such documented actions are childish, regardless of who does them. But that doesn't mean that you have to minimize it when it does take place.

-If there is only one side's viewpoint then it shouldn't be maximized. Have you read or seen anything by the other teams involved stating what the American kids and parents said? If not then you do not have the full story. When contacted, the coach of the accused Canadian team says he was unaware of such actions. So are you saying that the coach of the Canadian team was lying when he denied it?-

Look, all I am trying to say here is that this incident is an example of things that happen on both sides of the border and it ticks me off when some people act like the Americans would never do anything so dispicable. I am not condoning it, I think it is dreadful, but don't act like it is only happening over here

Canucks not welcome

By Trudi Beutel

tbeutel@richmond-news.com

Unwanted.

That's the way Charlaine Badock felt last Sunday during a shopping trip to Bellingham.

After leaving Cost Cutter Foods, Badock, her sister and their children made their way back to their minivan to find a note tucked under the windshield.

It read: "We in America are disappointed in Canadians and your government. You are not welcome in America. Go back to were(sic) you belong and stay there!"

"Getting this in black and white put a damper on our day," Badock said of the typed note, which served to cut the family's outing short.

"The kids said, 'Let's go home,'" and Badock and her sister agreed.

"I do think the anger is escalating between Canadians and Americans," she said.

Although Badock is angry she's been impacted by Ottawa's decision to stay out of the war, she doesn't endorse Canada fighting along side the coalition forces given the lack of evidence that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction.

However, she's peeved fractured U.S.-Canadian relations are impacting citizens who have little say in what transpires at the international level. Badock said she won't be travelling south of the 49th again until the war is over.

According to Bellingham/Whatcom Chamber of Commerce development director Pat Rowe, the Badock incident is the first he's heard of hostilities aimed directly at Canadian visitors to the Bellingham area.

"I don't think it's a widespread feeling. My guess it's just an angry person whose gone overboard," he said.

"I believe it's not a people-to-people anger, but a government-to-government anger."

He hoped the anonymous note wouldn't harm the normally "good and friendly relationship" between residents of the Lower Mainland and Whatcom County even if the governments of both countries disagree over how to deal with Saddam Hussein and his regime in Iraq.



Les Perreaux
National Post

Tuesday, February 04, 2003

WINNIPEG - Canadian schoolchildren have been banned from a poster contest in the United States because of Canada's shaky support of the American position on Iraq.

The National Gang Crimes Research Center, a think-tank based in Chicago, has barred Canadian participation in its contest.

"It's subject to change if your leaders stop hedging. Germany's in the same boat," George Knox, director of the centre, told the Winnipeg Free Press. "This is a time in history when we need to be together."

While experts on international affairs have agreed that Canada's position on Iraq is confused and shifting, Mr. Knox declined to explain the connection to an anti-gang art campaign for schoolchildren.

Yesterday Mr. Knox declined to be interviewed.

Jeanette Jerome, a Winnipeg artist, teaches after-school programs at Winnipeg schools. She was searching for contests to enter artwork by her middle-school pupils when she found the Gang Crimes Research Center contest. Its Web site calls for submissions from students of all ages for posters and essays on the theme of preventing gang violence.

According to the Web site, "the purpose of this contest is to encourage youths in the United States and Canada, through creative and artistic expression, to have a voice in shaping social policy about gang prevention."

First prize is $500. The contest information even called for provincial co-ordinators to volunteer for the contest.

Ms. Jerome wrote an e-mail inquiring about the poster contest.

Mr. Knox replied on Jan. 29, telling Ms. Jerome that Canadians need not apply.

"We are a pro-law-enforcement group and support initiatives against gangs and terrorism. Recent national political statements from leaders in your country have, unfortunately, been non-supportive of American interests. Due to this unfortunate development we are no longer able to accept Canadian entries. I am sure this is not a reflection on your own patriotism and your own perspectives on the issue, but in the current climate -- that is the way Americans are going to react," he wrote.

Outraged, Ms. Jerome wrote back, telling Mr. Knox he was being narrow-minded.

"I don't want anyone to have anti-American sentiments out of this. It's a sign that there are some dopes out there and he is just one of them," Ms. Jerome said. "He's painting Americans with the same broad brush that he is using on Canadians. Don't be angry at Americans. Be angry at this man."

The National Gang Crimes Research Center conducts and publishes research in academic journals and offers training courses to law enforcement officials, according to its Internet site.

 

[Geoff_M]

We find that in American rinks too. I was in Detroit lately at the Joe Dumars arena. Parents in the stands were cutting our Canadian kids up left and right. Funny thing though, I didn't go home and ask for a press conference

Agreed, the behavior can be found on both sides of the border. But my point was that adults "deliberately attack" kids on the ice verbally all too often. So I don't find it so implausable that some parents may have heckled the American team. As for "asking for a press conference", I can assure you the young hockey team did no such thing. I'd bet the farm that the local press heard about the story via word of mouth and sought them out initially.

The American team says it was rumour, the Canadian team says it was fact. I guess you can believe who you want. It certainly worked to motivate the girls. You aren't denying the burning of the Canadian flag though?

If it's a "fact", then who witnessed it? I can say "The Earth is flat" is a "fact", but that doesn't make it one. If you're going to hurl perceived "wrongs" against your country, it's best to avoid rumors, and hearsay, and urban legands. Likewise, I won't go around telling people about the anti-American "Joe Canadian" rants that we hear have been performed on Canadian TV. (I know those stories are false, but they COULD have really happened, right?)

When contacted, the coach of the accused Canadian team says he was unaware of such actions. So are you saying that the coach of the Canadian team was lying when he denied it?

Nope. I think it's quite possible that the other Coach didn't hear every comment on the ice spoken between players or what members of the crowd were saying while the players were against the opposite side of the rink. No one said that every player and every fan engauged in the conduct. I think both Coaches could be truthful in their statements.

As for the flag burning and the two stories you cut-n-paste, I'll be more than happy to condemn those actions. And I'll condemn those actions without attempting to say they were blown out of proportion, or try to understand their context.

Look, all I am trying to say here is that this incident is an example of things that happen on both sides of the border and it ticks me off when some people act like the Americans would never do anything so dispicable.

And where has anyone here, implicitly or explicitly claimed that Canada is the sole domain of such incidents??? The fact that some Canadians have been mistreated in the US for their citizenship shouldn't preclude Americans from complaining when such actions occur to them, unless the same people feel that such actions are warranted against Canadians. Stupidity and borish behavior should be called out, regardless of who's doing it or where it happens.