All things George Zimmerman...

[Wadecool]

I just thought I would take the liberty to start a new GZ thread to pick up where the last one left off...

 

[chobie]

 

[Elinor Dashwood]

Thank you.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Deleted because I think I posted the wrong information

 

[chobie]

Ok I went back and reread the documents. There were four spots tested for DNA on Martin's shirt (I think sleeves). One is Zimmerman's, two Martin's and one mixed. None of Zimmerman's or Martin's blood was found on the lower sleeves or cuffs or his hands.

Can you link to the DNA reports?

 

[Elinor Dashwood]

Can you link to the DNA reports?

Around page 106 or so:

http://www.axiomamnesia.com/Trayvon...orge-Zimmerman-FULL-case-report-documents.pdf

 

[sunshinehighway]

Can you link to the DNA reports?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor

It starts around page 107 for the shirt. ME-8. I'm confused by it. As I read further it says no foreign DNA was found on Martin's right lower sleeve/cuff and mixed DNA on his left but it can't be determined if its Zimmerman's.

No foreign DNA was found on his hoodie sleeves. That's ME-12

 

[Elinor Dashwood]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor

It starts around page 107 for the shirt. ME-8. I'm confused by it. As I read further it says no foreign DNA was found on Martin's right lower sleeve/cuff and mixed DNA on his left but it can't be determined if its Zimmerman's.

No foreign DNA was found on his hoodie sleeves. That's ME-12

The mixed DNA states that Zimmerman and Trayvon can be suggested as the owners.

From the other thread I posted:

DNA analysis was done on four different stains on the shirt, as well as on swabbings from the lower sleeves of the shirt.

"Exhibit ME-8 Stain A - A complete DNA profile was obtained from exhibit ME-8 Stain A. This DNA profile is consistent with originating from a male individual and matches the DNA profile from George Michael Zimmerman (JR-2)."

"Exhibit ME-8 Stain D - The mixed DNA profile obtained from Exhibit ME-8 Stain D demonstrated the presence of at least two individuals...George Michael Zimmerman and Trayvon Benjamin Martin are included as possible contributors..."

In addition, there was a mixed DNA profile on Trayvon's left cuff/lower left sleeve, but that could not be conclusively tied to Zimmerman. In fact, if you continue reading, you'll find that there were also stains on Zimmerman's shirt that contained Martin's DNA

 

[sunshinehighway]

The mixed DNA states that Zimmerman and Trayvon can be suggested as the owners.

There was still no foreign blood found on his hands or sleeves (of either his shirt or hoodie). The sleeves didn't test positive for blood and only one spot of mixed DNA was found on those sleeves.

 

[sunshinehighway]

The mixed DNA states that Zimmerman and Trayvon can be suggested as the owners.

From the other thread I posted:

DNA analysis was done on four different stains on the shirt, as well as on swabbings from the lower sleeves of the shirt.

"Exhibit ME-8 Stain A - A complete DNA profile was obtained from exhibit ME-8 Stain A. This DNA profile is consistent with originating from a male individual and matches the DNA profile from George Michael Zimmerman (JR-2)."

"Exhibit ME-8 Stain D - The mixed DNA profile obtained from Exhibit ME-8 Stain D demonstrated the presence of at least two individuals...George Michael Zimmerman and Trayvon Benjamin Martin are included as possible contributors..."

In addition, there was a mixed DNA profile on Trayvon's left cuff/lower left sleeve, but that could not be conclusively tied to Zimmerman. In fact, if you continue reading, you'll find that there were also stains on Zimmerman's shirt that contained Martin's DNA

He's wearing a hoodie over his shirt. If he's on top of Zimmerman, beating him and covering his mouth while Zimmerman is bleeding, how does he get Zimmerman's blood on his shirt (not his hoodie) but not on his hands or sleeves/cuffs?

I did keep reading and noticed there is one mixed blood stain that Martin is excluded from contributing to. DMS-19 stain I

 

[chobie]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor

It starts around page 107 for the shirt. ME-8. I'm confused by it. As I read further it says no foreign DNA was found on Martin's right lower sleeve/cuff and mixed DNA on his left but it can't be determined if its Zimmerman's.

No foreign DNA was found on his hoodie sleeves. That's ME-12

Page 107?!? Yoinks, I'm going to wait to hear from a DNA expert for this evidence.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Page 107?!? Yoinks, I'm going to wait to hear from a DNA expert for this evidence.

Its included in all of the documents that were released the other day. That's why there's so many pages.

 

[jujube]

Thanks for starting the new thread.

About the lack of DNA, my daughter's friend said that sometimes guys will pull their sleeves over their hands when they fight. I don't know whether that happened but it might explain why he did not have DNA on his knuckles.
Could the abrasion have been caused by his ring?

 

[chobie]

Thanks for starting the new thread.

About the lack of DNA, my daughter's friend said that sometimes guys will pull their sleeves over their hands when they fight. I don't know whether that happened but it might explain why he did not have DNA on his knuckles.
Could the abrasion have been caused by his ring?

Sure, anything is possible, I guess. But if his sleeve-covered hand contacted with GZ's face and especially if he was "pummeling him MM style" you would think there would have been some of GZ's DNA rubbed off on that sleeve-covered fist.

But, I'm not going to even pretend to understand DNA results and I don't think any article I can pull up on google will make it much easier.

 

[djm99]

I found this article but I'm not if it helps.

Summary of DNA and GSR Evidence*

1. Trayvon Martin’s shirt (ME-8)

Four stains tested positive for blood. Trayvon Martin is the source of two stains. George Zimmerman is the source for another and the fourth stain is a mixed sample containing DNA from both individuals.

2. Trayvon Martin’s hoodie (ME 12)

Two stains test positive for blood. Trayvon is the source of one and no DNA result on the other.

No DNA results foreign to Trayvon Martin are found on both lower sleeves.

Two holes were discovered in the area of the “upper left chest” (one in each item of clothing) that exhibited characteristics consistent with a contact gunshot.

3. My thoughts

Given the lack of George Zimmerman’s DNA on the hoodie, the presence of blood contributed by George Zimmerman on the shirt that he was wearing underneath the hoodie indicates the hoodie was not covering the portion of the shirt where the bloodstain was located. Difficult to draw any additional conclusions without knowing the location of the bloodstains on the shirt (e.g., whether the hoodie was pulled up exposing the shirt or the shirt was extended below the hoodie or how this could have happened)

No DNA results foreign to Trayvon Martin are found on both lower sleeves suggesting that Trayvon was not beating Zimmerman.

The two holes obviously came from the same shot and there is a potential conflict between the location of the wound (1 inch left of the midline and 1/2 inch below the nipple) and the location of the two holes (upper chest area).

There also is a potential conflict created by the medical examiner’s conclusion that the muzzle of the gun was 2 to 4 inches away (an intermediate distance) when the fatal shot was fired compared the firearm’s analyst who concluded that the muzzle of the gun was in contact with the clothing.

Marilyn, who comments at my law blog, suggested Zimmerman was restraining Martin by gripping his clothing with one hand and fired the gun with the other as Martin was attempting to get away. This could explain how the upper part of both items of clothing could have been pulled down as well as a few inches away from Martin’s chest when Zimmerman fired the fatal shot. It also might explain how Zimmerman’s blood might have gotten on the shirt, but not the hoodie.

I think we lack sufficient evidence to draw that conclusion at this point, but it’s certainly possible. Might also explain how the shot went straight in without angling up or down, left or right.

Of course, if it happened this way, the shooting definitely was not in self-defense.

4. George Zimmerman’s shirt (DMS-16) and jacket (DMS-19).

Gunshot Residue (GSR) was found on the jacket in the form of 1 particle of lead found on the upper back portion of the right sleeve.

Twelve bloodstains on the shirt were contributed by George Zimmerman, according to DNA analysis.

Thirteen bloodstains on the jacket contain Zimmerman’s DNA. Trayvon Martin’s DNA is present in four of them (mixed samples) and his DNA was detected in one mixed sample where the other contributor could not be identifies.

5. My thoughts

We do not know the size of any of these bloodstains. but I imagine some are quite small because they probably were deposited by high velocity blood spatter from the gunshot, which resembles a fine spray.

The pattern of blood spatter may establish where the wound was in relation to the jacket when the fatal shot was fired and help to establish the relative positions of the two individuals.

The only conclusion one can draw regarding the presence of GSR is that the object in question was in a shooting environment at some time.

GSR can be wiped or washed off, and one cannot tell how long it has been present, so we probably cannot reliably draw any conclusions from the presence of the single particle of lead on the upper back portion of the right sleeve of his jacket.

*The information in this article comes from the lab reports in the document dump.

1. Lab Report March 26, 2012 (p. 104)

2. Supplementary Lab Report May 9, 2012 (p. 110)

3. Lab Report March 22, 2012 (p. 122)

4. Lab Report March 28, 2012 (p. 124)

The presence of Zimmerman’s blood on Martin’s shirt under the hoodie also suggests that, at some point, Zimmerman was above him, assuming the stains are due to dripped blood.

Another possible explanation is transfer. That is, the blood was on Zimmerman’s clothes and transferred to Martin’s shirt when they came in contact.

Dripped blood looks like a circle, unless the surface it impacts is angled, in which the blood spatter appears elongated. Absorbent cloth can affect the appearance. Transferred blood typically looks smeared.

A qualified blood spatter expert can interpret patterns of spatter and interpret how a murder was committed and I have no doubt that the prosecution will employ a blood spatter expert, unless they already have one working for the Florida State Crime Lab.

I know a fair amount about the subject because it has come up in several of my cases.

Problem is I have to see the stains to figure out what happened and the only thing I have seen are the reports I’ve mentioned here.

http://my.firedoglake.com/mason/2012/05/21/dna-and-gsr-update-on-george-zimmerman-case/

 

[Christopher Robin]

 

[sunshinehighway]

Thanks for starting the new thread.

About the lack of DNA, my daughter's friend said that sometimes guys will pull their sleeves over their hands when they fight. I don't know whether that happened but it might explain why he did not have DNA on his knuckles.
Could the abrasion have been caused by his ring?

That would makes sense if blood was found on his sleeves/cuffs. There wasn't any. The one mixed DNA sample, which couldn't be determined to be Zimmerman( it could be and likely is because he wasn't outright excluded),
found on his shirt sleeve wasn't blood.

The cut was on his ring finger. I don't know if there's a ring listed anywhere in the reports. Is there a ring visible in the store video? I have a slow connection right now so I can't watch the video.

 

[sbell111]

The two holes obviously came from the same shot and there is a potential conflict between the location of the wound (1 inch left of the midline and 1/2 inch below the nipple) and the location of the two holes (upper chest area).

I'm not seeing the conflict. The upper chest area of a shirt could certainly be similar to the location of the wound half an inch below the nipple.

There also is a potential conflict created by the medical examiner’s conclusion that the muzzle of the gun was 2 to 4 inches away (an intermediate distance) when the fatal shot was fired compared the firearm’s analyst who concluded that the muzzle of the gun was in contact with the clothing.

I'm also not seeing the conflict here. If Martin was atop Zimmerman, it's not unreasonable to think that his sweatshirt was a couple inches away from his body. That would make the muzzle that is touching the sweatshirt to be a few inches from Martin's skin.

Marilyn, who comments at my law blog, suggested Zimmerman was restraining Martin by gripping his clothing with one hand and fired the gun with the other as Martin was attempting to get away. This could explain how the upper part of both items of clothing could have been pulled down as well as a few inches away from Martin’s chest when Zimmerman fired the fatal shot. It also might explain how Zimmerman’s blood might have gotten on the shirt, but not the hoodie.

I think we lack sufficient evidence to draw that conclusion at this point, but it’s certainly possible. Might also explain how the shot went straight in without angling up or down, left or right.

Of course, if it happened this way, the shooting definitely was not in self-defense.

Her theory is that the guy on the bottom was somehow restraining the guy on the top. Really?

 

[djm99]

Her theory is that the guy on the bottom was somehow restraining the guy on the top. Really?

NO, her theory is (if this is proven) the gun shot was a straight shot and that Zimmerman was able to get on top of TM at the time of the shot. Which 2 different witnesses stated happening. Most witnesses didn't see the shot but 1 witness noticed that Z just stood up - which at first I was confused but at that time, I didn't consider that Zimmerman could be ON TOP when TM was shot.

I also find it very strange that TM's body was found with both hands under his body. Which makes me think he turned him over. If TM was on top wouldn't he roll over on his back? How did his hands get under his body?

 

[sbell111]

I also find it very strange that TM's body was found with both hands under his body. Which makes me think he turned him over. If TM was on top wouldn't he roll over on his back? How did his hands get under his body?

That question was asked in an early page of one of the preceding threads. It's not difficult to imagine a scenario that leaves Martin face down with his hands under his body. Here's one:

Martin's on top, hands in front of him; reaching for the gun, slamming Zimmerman's head on the ground, restraining Zimmerman, tickling him, whatever. He gets shot and falls forward (downward). Reagrdless of whether he falls directly on top of Zimmerman or somewhat canted, his hands would be below his body. Zimmerman scootches out leaving Martin face down, hands below the body.