A sad choice for my friend

[nathalee81]

It's unfortunate that you choose to take it that way, but frankly that says more about you than anyone else. It was not intended that way. I don't care what vows anyone else says. I don't care how they interpret their own vows. I care about my own vows, and about what I feel they mean in regards to my marriage. I don't judge anyone else about their vows because I have no idea what they vowed or how they meant the things that they vowed. I choose not to paint everyone with the same brush, because I know when it comes to things like vows and beliefs and feelings, there is no one answer that applies to everyone. It's a shame you can't do the same.

Deleted. It isn't worth it to argue with people who get personal. Sorry for my outburst to the others on this thread. I got off topic from the point of this threat, about this woman who has a horrible choice. I feel for her.

 

[Scurvy]

So, I'm sorry, please enlighten me what this says about me?

And, you are trying to say you aren't judgemental? You have just made an assumption about me based on two posts on a message board?

Yes, sure, you aren't judgemental in the least.

It says that is your perception. It says nothing about what anyone else is projecting.

My assumption is that you do not accept that people can feel one way about their own vows while not applying that belief to other couples' marriages. You appear to think that everyone on this thread is applying their own personal beliefs to everyone else and judging them in the process, and to me it seems that you are doing exactly that. I apologize if that's an incorrect assumption. I fail to understand how I'm being judgemental, but I do apologize if I've offended you with my personal beliefs.

ETA - I apologize, OP, for taking this so far off topic. I have tried to explain my feelings on this to the best of my ability and people can either believe me or not as they see fit. I won't contribute any more to the "judgemental" debate.

 

[ccgirl]

I am very sorry, but you are judging, as is everyone who said they wouldn't leave on account of their vows.

Most people's vows include "until death do you part" in some way. So by saying "well it is in my vows" and that is why I wouldn't leave, is implying those that disagree with you don't place the same importance on their vows.
Which is untrue and judgemental.

My husband and I said our vows with all the honesty and faith in our hearts. I respect them and have held true to them, as has he. The vows we said are no less important than those you all have exchanged with your significant others, so please don't belittle them because I don't believe my husband should be chained to me should I have the mental capacity of a child and not be able to be a wife to him.

You can feel whatever way you like but I am not judging. Does everyone that have differing points as you mean they are judging you? That is what going on in this thread, two views on an issue. No one side is right or wrong. I don't know how that can be any less judgemental. I specifically stated I have many friends and family that are divorced. I do not look at them any differently or love them any less because of it.

 

[SC Minnie]

I hope I nor my spouse (or anyone on this thread) will ever be in the OP's friends shoes to have to make such a decision.

That being said I really don't know what I would do. I can sit here and say one thing today but if ever faced with it and lived with it for 5+ years and know that my next 30+ years would be just like that. I don't know.....

One good thing about this thread is I think it has started some good conversations between spouses that may not have been had otherwise.

 

[disney1990]

There but for the Grace of God go I.

None of us honestly know what we would do, unless this actually happens to us.

If it were my friend, I would just be there for her -- no matter what her decision was.

 

[DisneyMissy318]

Please forgive me - I haven't read the entire thread (so I don't know if this was mentioned or not) - but I had to post these links. Last year I remember a CBS news story - the reporter was doing a story - then the story turned out to be about his wife - who has early onset Alzheimers - and his life today. Your friend might like to read this book - I'm sure she will be able to relate - and possibly figure out a solution for herself.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/06/20/sunday/main6600364.shtml

http://www.behlerpublications.com/titles-petersen.shtml


To the OP - I can't imagine what your friend is going through - raising her kids alone - all of the responsibility being carried squarely on her shoulders. I have to wonder if those around her (her DH's family, etc.) - all of those people with an opinion - I wonder if they have come over to her house and started her car on a cold winter morning, shoveled the walk, taken her kids on a hike? I wonder if her friends even give a thought to what she has to do by herself - it's not like being a single Mom - a single Mom would have to do all of those things by herself - but she would have the freedom to go out on a date - or to have coffee with someone of the opposite sex if she so chooses. Your friend has to carry the responsibilities of being married without any of the little things that make being married worthwhile.

I have been married 14 years - my DH and I have never had a conversation that would come close to covering this subject. I'm thinking we will now.

OP - sounds like you are an awesome friend - my heart goes out to your friend and her family.

 

[livie1205]

You can feel whatever way you like but I am not judging. Does everyone that have differing points as you mean they are judging you? That is what going on in this thread, two views on an issue. No one side is right or wrong. I don't know how that can be any less judgemental. I specifically stated I have many friends and family that are divorced. I do not look at them any differently or love them any less because of it.

......I have seen FIRST HAND what domestic violence does to kids and it can ruin their lives and damage them for the rest of their lives so yes I am judging..i would NEVER AGAIN think it is ok to show a child that because of vows I would stay and put myself and them in that kind of danger....my dd5 needs to know and be shown that if a man harms her in any way that is ok to leave,divorce him and find a real man that loves her enough not to hurt her.when you have kids it stops being about you and starts being about what is going to keep them safe.....you can say that you would never leave but until you are in that place you cant say..not really and I hope you never have to sit in a er and make that choice.Take my word for it,when you see a man hurt your child you will not even think twice and if you do I am sorry,thats a problem.I just dont get the whole"I would leave him but not divorce" if you leave thats leaving your marriage in your heart,a paper in simply that a paper.I AM NOT trying to change anyones mind but my opinion is I dont get it .
In the op friend case i can see where this is a young women that needs to give herself and her kids a life they can enjoy and that does not mean that they have to drop him like he is nothing but still give them a good life still knowing their dad but having someone else one day step in and love them.

 

[Agri]

......I have seen FIRST HAND what domestic violence does to kids and it can ruin their lives and damage them for the rest of their lives so yes I am judging..i would NEVER AGAIN think it is ok to show a child that because of vows I would stay and put myself and them in that kind of danger....my dd5 needs to know and be shown that if a man harms her in any way that is ok to leave,divorce him and find a real man that loves her enough not to hurt her.when you have kids it stops being about you and starts being about what is going to keep them safe.....you can say that you would never leave but until you are in that place you cant say..not really and I hope you never have to sit in a er and make that choice.Take my word for it,when you see a man hurt your child you will not even think twice and if you do I am sorry,thats a problem.I just dont get the whole"I would leave him but not divorce" if you leave thats leaving your marriage in your heart,a paper in simply that a paper.I AM NOT trying to change anyones mind but my opinion is I dont get it .

But by leaving him but still staying married to him, she's not breaking her vows.

 

[jodifla]

Well, here's a scenario I'll have to run by DH this weekend.

But if it were me disabled and we were in our 30s, I would want my husband to continue to care for me and visit me, but I'd also want him to move on and find someone to be his new partner, because I obviously won't be filling that bill anymore. Why compound the tragedy? Particularly if I don't have any cognition of the way things were, and will never recover?

I will note that our vows did not say "Till death to us part." I'm really against divorce in the case that involves young children, but in this case, the marriage is already over. The relationship is no longer husband / wife, it's Wife/ child.

This is also the problem with our advanced medical technology that can keep people alive, but at such a high cost.

 

[MELSMICE]

This is also the problem with our advanced medical technology that can keep people alive, but at such a high cost.

My cousin, who has a very high level job at a Rhode Island hospital was just talking about this same thing.

Is it right to lay out outrageous costs in medical care for someone whose life is not what it was or possibly a life that will be extremely difficult (as in a preemie with severe medical issues)?

Or, is it right to not give medical care to someone, considering the cost, if you have the knowledge and means to do so?

What is right?

 

[ClarabelleCowFan]

My cousin, who has a very high level job at a Rhode Island hospital was just talking about this same thing.

Is it right to lay out outrageous costs in medical care for someone whose life is not what it was or possibly a life that will be extremely difficult (as in a preemie with severe medical issues)?

Or, is it right to not give medical care to someone, considering the cost, if you have the knowledge and means to do so?

What is right?

There are new treatments all the time in the world of medicine so I wouldn't condemn someone to no medical treatment just because of the state of their current condition.

I posted earlier about my father's first wife having TB in the mid 1940's. That was basically a death sentence and she was confined to a sanitarium because at the time there was no treatment or cure. Fast forward just a couple of years and the use of strong antibiotics came out as a treatment and the disease is no longer the instant death sentence or life sentence in a medical facility that it used to be.

I believe everyone deserves the chance but that is just me.

 

[MELSMICE]

I believe everyone deserves the chance but that is just me.

I agree. She works in the medical field every day & sees much more than I do.

A few of her examples:

A co-workers DH's had a stroke & is now severely disabled. She had the opportunity to sign a DNR, however, chose not to. He has no quality of life at this point. She is his primary caregiver & it is taking it's toll on the woman and other things in her life.

Signing a DNR is not something I would want to decide & no one can foresee what is going to happen in the future, however, do you sign a DNR or not, knowing that if you don't a person's life can most likely be saved, but at what "cost".

She mentioned preemies that are born weighing under 1 lb. & the drastic measures taken to save these babies. She said sometimes these babies spend not only months but years in intensive care, taking a major toll on the parents & other family members.

Of course, as a parent, our first thought is to do everything medically possible to save your child. There is no thought of what the decision might mean in the future & the toll it would take on the family.

How do you make such a decision? Being in the medical field she makes very cut & dry decisions.

Not being in the medical field though, I wonder what is a right or wrong/good or bad decision. I don't believe there are any right or wrong answers.

 

[ccgirl]

......I have seen FIRST HAND what domestic violence does to kids and it can ruin their lives and damage them for the rest of their lives so yes I am judging..i would NEVER AGAIN think it is ok to show a child that because of vows I would stay and put myself and them in that kind of danger....my dd5 needs to know and be shown that if a man harms her in any way that is ok to leave,divorce him and find a real man that loves her enough not to hurt her.when you have kids it stops being about you and starts being about what is going to keep them safe.....you can say that you would never leave but until you are in that place you cant say..not really and I hope you never have to sit in a er and make that choice.Take my word for it,when you see a man hurt your child you will not even think twice and if you do I am sorry,thats a problem.I just dont get the whole"I would leave him but not divorce" if you leave thats leaving your marriage in your heart,a paper in simply that a paper.I AM NOT trying to change anyones mind but my opinion is I dont get it .
In the op friend case i can see where this is a young women that needs to give herself and her kids a life they can enjoy and that does not mean that they have to drop him like he is nothing but still give them a good life still knowing their dad but having someone else one day step in and love them.

And why would you assume I have not witnessed abuse first hand? Sorry, been there done that.

But by leaving him but still staying married to him, she's not breaking her vows.

Wow...I don't recall mocking anyone else's view points. How shallow. I am trying to explain my position without debating religion. I am accepting of everyone else's viewpoints. I may not agree but I accept. If I do not believe in divorce, how could I have a life with another man? That would be commiting adultery to me. BTW, there are people who don't live together and remain married.

To each their own.

 

[ccgirl]

I agree. She works in the medical field every day & sees much more than I do.

A few of her examples:

A co-workers DH's had a stroke & is now severely disabled. She had the opportunity to sign a DNR, however, chose not to. He has no quality of life at this point. She is his primary caregiver & it is taking it's toll on the woman and other things in her life.

Signing a DNR is not something I would want to decide & no one can foresee what is going to happen in the future, however, do you sign a DNR or not, knowing that if you don't a person's life can most likely be saved, but at what "cost".

She mentioned preemies that are born weighing under 1 lb. & the drastic measures taken to save these babies. She said sometimes these babies spend not only months but years in intensive care, taking a major toll on the parents & other family members.

Of course, as a parent, our first thought is to do everything medically possible to save your child. There is no thought of what the decision might mean in the future & the toll it would take on the family.

How do you make such a decision? Being in the medical field she makes very cut & dry decisions.

Not being in the medical field though, I wonder what is a right or wrong/good or bad decision. I don't believe there are any right or wrong answers.

Great point! There are not any right or wrong answers. It is a personal decision for each and every one of us. And, it is a friends job to support our decision - just as the OP is doing.

 

[Ember]

And why would you assume I have not witnessed abuse first hand? Sorry, been there done that.


Wow...I don't recall mocking anyone else's view points. How shallow. I am trying to explain my position without debating religion. I am accepting of everyone else's viewpoints. I may not agree but I accept. If I do not believe in divorce, how could I have a life with another man? That would be commiting adultery to me. BTW, there are people who don't live together and remain married.

To each their own.

You're right. You've said more than once this is what you would do, but not what you would expect from others.

We actually put a great deal of thought into our wedding ceremony and vows. Many ceremonies are filled with things we didn't like or agree with, or just found silly. (I'm married to a scientist, the romantic notion of two hearts now beating as one just wasn't going to fly!) We wrote the whole ceremony ourselves so that it suited us and our beliefs. I take my vows every bit as seriously as you take yours, they're just strikingly different belief systems. And that's okay.

 

[ClarabelleCowFan]

I agree. She works in the medical field every day & sees much more than I do.

A few of her examples:

A co-workers DH's had a stroke & is now severely disabled. She had the opportunity to sign a DNR, however, chose not to. He has no quality of life at this point. She is his primary caregiver & it is taking it's toll on the woman and other things in her life.

Signing a DNR is not something I would want to decide & no one can foresee what is going to happen in the future, however, do you sign a DNR or not, knowing that if you don't a person's life can most likely be saved, but at what "cost".

She mentioned preemies that are born weighing under 1 lb. & the drastic measures taken to save these babies. She said sometimes these babies spend not only months but years in intensive care, taking a major toll on the parents & other family members.

Of course, as a parent, our first thought is to do everything medically possible to save your child. There is no thought of what the decision might mean in the future & the toll it would take on the family.

How do you make such a decision? Being in the medical field she makes very cut & dry decisions.

Not being in the medical field though, I wonder what is a right or wrong/good or bad decision. I don't believe there are any right or wrong answers.

Honestly that is a very painful topic for me. My mother absolutely did not want a DNR on her but when she fell and broke her neck my siblings convinced my father to put one on her anyway then he removed all medical treatment causing her death (long horrible story). I learned quite a bit about the process - even if you have a medical directive and your wishes are known, that all goes out the window the second you are deemed medically unable to make your own decisions. Your next of kin can over rule your wishes and do what they want. It is a terrifying reality that most people don't realize. How much do you REALLY trust your next of kin to do what you want in a situation like this?

With DH being military, we have all of our medical directives and such in place. DH is very aware of my wishes and after watching the anguish of what happened with my mother's death I can only pray that he respects my wishes if he is ever put into a situation of making a decision about my health care.

I believe every one should have a chance. My mother was denied the chance for treatment and denied the chance to live. I could never make that decision to deny that chance to someone that I love but again, that is just me and how I feel because of my own experiences. Everyone has to deal with their own situations in their own way. I wouldn't wish what I went through and what I watched my mother go through in her last days on anyone.

 

[SC Minnie]

With DH being military, we have all of our medical directives and such in place. DH is very aware of my wishes and after watching the anguish of what happened with my mother's death I can only pray that he respects my wishes if he is ever put into a situation of making a decision about my health care.

DH and I have medical directives as well. We have talked about our wishes and have told our closest family members our wishes. We wanted to make sure everyone knew what each of us wanted so brother/sisters/parents wouldn't second guess if a time came that they had to be carried out. It is not a pleasant conversation.

I did tell DH if he didn't follow what I wanted I would come back and haunt him.