655,000 Dead

They are not direct casualties of war. It is also deaths from living conditions.

But what if those living conditions are caused by the war , is what I mean.

A lot of people died of malnutrition , or cold during WW2. These people were living in those conditions because of the war , and they died because of it , even if no bomb of bullet hit them.
 
The objective was to fight terrorists and those who harbor them, not just those directly responsible for 9/11.



No it wasn't, it was to stop the development of WMD's and destroy all Hussein had, which was 0 by the way..Remember the mushroom cloud images?/ Can you count how many time Bush has said 9-11 when drumming up support for attacking Iraq? He exploited the fear of the American people and that is unconscionable!
 
This link is 6 months old. I imagine it could be a bit higher now.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/11/iraq.deaths/
It was very interesting. I was interested to find out that the family unit in Iraq is about 6.9 people per household (are they catholic? Sorry catholics, couldn't resist). And, of course using the same survey, if there 654,000 deaths, there had to be 1,532,585 births in the same time frame. For a population of 26,000,000 that seems to be a bit high. If we were following that rate, our popluation, from the 1990 census to now would have our population at 514,521,670. I do believe our numbers are a little lower than that. :rolleyes1 popcorn::
 
But what if those living conditions are caused by the war , is what I mean.

A lot of people died of malnutrition , or cold during WW2. These people were living in those conditions because of the war , and they died because of it , even if no bomb of bullet hit them.
According to the report, it lists less than 10% being non-violent deaths.

For my previous post, the births are listed on page 6. Using the number of deaths that they say represents 655,000 dead, you multiple the number of births by the same variance and you get a huge increase in popluation.
 

If you think Irakis are better off now than before the invasion here is a LONG text from :http://newstandardnews.net/content/?items=1816

"
Iraqis Endure Worse Conditions Than Under Saddam, UN Survey Finds
by Chris Shumway
A major study by the UN and Iraqi officials found that life in Iraq has decayed significantly since foreign forces invaded, following a general trend seen in most sectors since the imposition of a global embargo in 1990.

May 18, 2005 – Responses to a detailed survey conducted by a United Nations agency and the Iraqi government indicate that everyday conditions for Iraqis in the aftermath of the 2003 US-led invasion have deteriorated at an alarming rate, with huge numbers of people lacking adequate access to basic services and resources such as clean water, food, health care, electricity, jobs and sanitation.



* Child Malnutrition in Iraq Increases Under U.S. Occupation, Says UN

"This survey shows a rather tragic situation of the quality of life in Iraq," Barham Salih, Iraq's minister of planning, said in statement, adding: "If you compare this to the situation in the 1980s, you will see a major deterioration."

The United Nations Development Program (UNDP) conducted the far ranging survey, titled "Iraq Living Conditions Survey 2004," in cooperation with Iraq’s Ministry of Planning.

Researchers determined that some 24,000 Iraqis died as a result of the US-led invasion in 2003 and the first year of occupation. Children below the age of 18 comprised 12 percent of those deaths, according to survey data.

The study also indicates that the invasion and its immediate aftermath forced more than 140,000 Iraqis to flee their homes.

The 370-page report evaluating the survey, which was in turn based on interviews conducted with more than 21,000 Iraqi households during the spring and summer of 2004, might not end the controversy over civilian casualty figures, but the study’s authors drew a narrower range of estimated deaths. They report that the total number of war dead is between 18,000 and 29,000.

But they also acknowledge that their numbers are derived from a question -- posed to household members concerning dead and missing relatives -- that "underestimates deaths, because households in which all members were lost are omitted."

Other sources have reported widely varying figures for civilian deaths. Iraq Body Count, a website that tracks reported civilian deaths in Iraq, put the total number of civilians killed by military intervention at somewhere between 14,619 and 16,804 during the time covered by the UN survey.

A survey published last fall in The Lancet, a renowned British medical journal, extrapolated that 98,000 "excess civilian deaths" had occurred in Iraq during roughly the same period covered by the UN study, compared to the number of deaths to be expected in relative peace time. The authors of that study, who based their findings on interviews with fewer than 1,000 Iraqi households in various regions, were also careful to note that based on the same confidence level as the UN report, the possible range ran from 8,000 to 194,000 deaths.
Child Malnutrition Worsens

In addition to deaths attributed to warfare, Iraqi children have suffered from a lack of adequate nutrition since 2003, the survey reports.

Data from the survey indicates that 23 percent of children between six months and five years suffer from chronic malnutrition, while 12 percent suffer from general malnutrition, and 8 percent experience acute malnutrition.

The malnutrition figures are consistent with statistics from previous, smaller surveys cited earlier this year by Jean Ziegler, the UN’s expert on malnutrition.

Ziegler drew harsh criticism from US officials in March when he told the UN Commission on Human Rights that child malnutrition rates in Iraq had nearly doubled since 2003. Ziegler said the rise was "a result of the war led by coalition forces."

In addition to war, the new UN report suggests that more than a decade of harsh economic sanctions against Iraq, enthusiastically supported by the US and British governments, has had a major impact on the health of Iraqi children.

"Most Iraqi children today have lived their whole lives under sanctions and war," the study says, noting that "the suffering of children due to war and conflict in Iraq is not limited to those directly wounded or killed by military activities."

The survey notes that children under the age of 15 make up 39 percent of the country’s total population.
Health Care Facilities Dilapidated, Doctors Frustrated

Years of sanctions and war have also had a major negative impact on Iraq’s health care system, once considered among the best in the Middle East, authors of the survey observe.

The list of "current major problems" includes "lack of health personnel, lack of medicines, non-functioning medical equipment and destroyed hospitals and health centers."

Iraqi health officials express a great deal of frustration at their limited capacity to provide services to those who are chronically ill and to the increasingly high number of people wounded in attacks by rebels, foreign occupation troops and Iraqi security forces.

In interviews with the Christian Science Monitor, doctors at Baghdad’s Yarmouk Hospital, said the main problem at is funding for basic medical services. In fact, they say the money needed to run the facility, which has the biggest patient load in Baghdad, has run just out.

"The health ministry does not have money to spend until July," Tala Al-Awqati, a pediatrician at Yarmouk, told CSM. "A lot of things have stopped," she said, "People are not getting what they need from the health services. Money for disinfectant is not there anymore; sometimes we must buy it ourselves."

Iraq’s Health Ministry had requested $2 billion for health care services in 2004 from US controlled funding sources, but reportedly received less than half that amount - only $950 million. Doctors told CSM that due to poor funding and the slow pace of the US-led reconstruction effort, projects to repair hospital water pipes and sewage systems are left undone.

In addition to poor facilities and the lack of medicine and personnel, Al-Awqati suggested that poor security is one reason the infant mortality rate in Iraq remains high under the US-led occupation. "Women can’t reach the hospital at night," she said, referring to the lack of safety near her own facility.

The UN survey reports 32 deaths per 1,000 births during infants’ first year. The report further indicates that "infant and child mortality rates appear to have been steadily increasing" during the last 15 years of war and sanctions. The number of mothers who die during labor was 93 for every 100,000 births, far worse than the rates of maternal mortality in Jordan and Saudi Arabia.

Iraqis Lack Safe Water, Sewage Treatment, Electricity

The condition of Iraq’s health care infrastructure is mirrored by that of the country’s larger civilian infrastructure, which the UN report says is marked by "degraded or disrupted electricity supply, sanitation, and communications."

In comparison with earlier statistics from Iraq on key measures of daily living conditions - such as reliability of electrical service, access to safe drinking water and sanitation systems and access to health care -- the report concludes that "an alarming deterioration in the indicators is apparent."

Of the households surveyed, 51 percent of those in urban areas of southern Iraq live in neighborhoods "where sewage could be seen in the streets." Nationwide, 40 percent of families in urban areas and 30 percent in rural areas reported living in neighborhoods where they can see sewage in the streets.

Iraqis are not fairing much better with respect to clean sources of water. The survey indicates that only 54 percent of households nationwide have access to a "safe and stable" supply of drinking water. An estimated 722,000 Iraqis, the report also notes, rely on sources that are both unreliable and unsafe.

Conditions are worse in rural areas, with 80 percent of families drinking unsafe water, the report says. According to researchers, "the situation is alarming" in the southern governorates of Basra, Dhi Qar, Qadisiya, Wasit, and Babil, located near the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. A large percentage of the population in this region relies on water from polluted rivers and local streams, the report says.

Although 98 percent of Iraqi households are connected to the electrical grid, 78 percent of them report "severe instability" and low quality in the service, according to the survey. As a result, about one in three Iraqi families now relies on alternative sources of electricity such as generators, most of which are shared between households.
Literacy in Decline

The past two decades of war and sanctions have also taken a heavy toll on Iraq’s education system, the report states.

The literacy rate among those between the ages of 15 and 24 is just 74 percent, the survey reveals - a rate researchers note is only "slightly higher than the literacy rate for the population at large." But this figure is lower than literacy rates for those 25-34, "indicating that the younger generation lags behind its predecessors on educational performance."

The survey also indicated that the literacy rate for women in Iraq has stagnated in the past two years. In some governorates, however, the level of female illiteracy is very high.

Overall, the gender gap in literacy is diminishing in Iraq, according to the report - but this appears due more to a drop in the literacy levels of men rather than gains made by women.

© 2005 The NewStandard. All rights reserved. The NewStandard is a non-profit publisher that encourages noncommercial reproduction of its content. Reprints must prominently attribute the author and The NewStandard, hyperlink to http://newstandardnews.net (online) or display newstandardnews.net (print), and carry this notice. For more information or commercial reprint rights, please see the TNS reprint policy. "
 
You forgot one very important number:

Percentage Saddam Hussein and/or Iraq was involved with the 9/11 attacks:

0. (Zero).


9/11 by the Numbers

The initial numbers are indelible: 8:46 a.m. and 9:02 a.m. Time the burning towers stood: 56 minutes and 102 minutes. Time they took to fall: 12 seconds. From there, they ripple out.

Total number killed in attacks (official figure as of 9/5/02): 2,819
Number of firefighters and paramedics killed: 343
Number of NYPD officers: 23
Number of Port Authority police officers: 37
Number of WTC companies that lost people: 60
Number of employees who died in Tower One: 1,402
Number of employees who died in Tower Two: 614
Number of employees lost at Cantor Fitzgerald: 658
Number of U.S. troops killed in Operation Enduring Freedom: 22
Number of nations whose citizens were killed in attacks: 115
Ratio of men to women who died: 3:1
Age of the greatest number who died: between 35 and 39
Bodies found "intact": 289
Body parts found: 19,858
Number of families who got no remains: 1,717
Estimated units of blood donated to the New York Blood Center: 36,000
Total units of donated blood actually used: 258
Number of people who lost a spouse or partner in the attacks: 1,609
Estimated number of children who lost a parent: 3,051
Percentage of Americans who knew someone hurt or killed in the attacks: 20
FDNY retirements, January–July 2001: 274
FDNY retirements, January–July 2002: 661
Number of firefighters on leave for respiratory problems by January 2002: 300
Number of funerals attended by Rudy Giuliani in 2001: 200
Number of FDNY vehicles destroyed: 98
Tons of debris removed from site: 1,506,124
Days fires continued to burn after the attack: 99
Jobs lost in New York owing to the attacks: 146,100
Days the New York Stock Exchange was closed: 6
Point drop in the Dow Jones industrial average when the NYSE reopened: 684.81
Days after 9/11 that the U.S. began bombing Afghanistan: 26
Total number of hate crimes reported to the Council on American-Islamic Relations nationwide since 9/11: 1,714
Economic loss to New York in month following the attacks: $105 billion
Estimated cost of cleanup: $600 million
Total FEMA money spent on the emergency: $970 million
Estimated amount donated to 9/11 charities: $1.4 billion
Estimated amount of insurance paid worldwide related to 9/11: $40.2 billion
Estimated amount of money needed to overhaul lower-Manhattan subways: $7.5 billion
Amount of money recently granted by U.S. government to overhaul lower-Manhattan subways: $4.55 billion
Estimated amount of money raised for funds dedicated to NYPD and FDNY families: $500 million
Percentage of total charity money raised going to FDNY and NYPD families: 25
Average benefit already received by each FDNY and NYPD widow: $1 million
Percentage increase in law-school applications from 2001 to 2002: 17.9
Percentage increase in Peace Corps applications from 2001 to 2002: 40
Percentage increase in CIA applications from 2001 to 2002: 50
Number of songs Clear Channel Radio considered "inappropriate" to play after 9/11: 150
Number of mentions of 9/11 at the Oscars: 26
Apartments in lower Manhattan eligible for asbestos cleanup: 30,000
Number of apartments whose residents have requested cleanup and testing: 4,110
Number of Americans who changed their 2001 holiday-travel plans from plane to train or car: 1.4 million
Estimated number of New Yorkers suffering from post-traumatic-stress disorder as a result of 9/11: 422,000

And on to Saddam and Iraq:
http://www.c-span.org/resources/pdf/hrdossier.pdf

If all we accomplished with this war was to remove Saddam Hussein then it was worth it. And if anyone thinks that we are the only ones responsible for the casualties of this war they are wrong, they are still killing their own people, just like Saddam did....

I also wish that this war would end, especially when I see all the 18 year old soldiers who are there... they are still kids and fighting for this country.... and I want them home just as much as anyone, but we cannot leave now and show weakness to these countries who will ony get more bold and attack us at home again....
 
Hurray, we're starving innocent children! I'm with Joe! Yay USA! (/waves flag) Yay starving children! 'Cause that's what America's all about! (under Bush).

But it's okay, really! No Billionaire Left Behind is working perfectly!


If you think Irakis are better off now than before the invasion here is a LONG text from :http://newstandardnews.net/content/?items=1816

"
Iraqis Endure Worse Conditions Than Under Saddam, UN Survey Finds
by Chris Shumway
A major study by the UN and Iraqi officials found that life in Iraq has decayed significantly since foreign forces invaded, following a general trend seen in most sectors since the imposition of a global embargo in 1990.

May 18, 2005 – Responses to a detailed survey conducted by a United Nations agency and the Iraqi government indicate that everyday conditions for Iraqis in the aftermath of the 2003 US-led invasion have deteriorated at an alarming rate, with huge numbers of people lacking adequate access to basic services and resources such as clean water, food, health care, electricity, jobs and sanitation.



* Child Malnutrition in Iraq Increases Under U.S. Occupation, Says UN

"This survey shows a rather tragic situation of the quality of life in Iraq," Barham Salih, Iraq's minister of planning, said in statement, adding: "If you compare this to the situation in the 1980s, you will see a major deterioration."

The United Nations Development Program (UNDP) conducted the far ranging survey, titled "Iraq Living Conditions Survey 2004," in cooperation with Iraq’s Ministry of Planning.

Researchers determined that some 24,000 Iraqis died as a result of the US-led invasion in 2003 and the first year of occupation. Children below the age of 18 comprised 12 percent of those deaths, according to survey data.

The study also indicates that the invasion and its immediate aftermath forced more than 140,000 Iraqis to flee their homes.

The 370-page report evaluating the survey, which was in turn based on interviews conducted with more than 21,000 Iraqi households during the spring and summer of 2004, might not end the controversy over civilian casualty figures, but the study’s authors drew a narrower range of estimated deaths. They report that the total number of war dead is between 18,000 and 29,000.

But they also acknowledge that their numbers are derived from a question -- posed to household members concerning dead and missing relatives -- that "underestimates deaths, because households in which all members were lost are omitted."

Other sources have reported widely varying figures for civilian deaths. Iraq Body Count, a website that tracks reported civilian deaths in Iraq, put the total number of civilians killed by military intervention at somewhere between 14,619 and 16,804 during the time covered by the UN survey.

A survey published last fall in The Lancet, a renowned British medical journal, extrapolated that 98,000 "excess civilian deaths" had occurred in Iraq during roughly the same period covered by the UN study, compared to the number of deaths to be expected in relative peace time. The authors of that study, who based their findings on interviews with fewer than 1,000 Iraqi households in various regions, were also careful to note that based on the same confidence level as the UN report, the possible range ran from 8,000 to 194,000 deaths.
Child Malnutrition Worsens

In addition to deaths attributed to warfare, Iraqi children have suffered from a lack of adequate nutrition since 2003, the survey reports.

Data from the survey indicates that 23 percent of children between six months and five years suffer from chronic malnutrition, while 12 percent suffer from general malnutrition, and 8 percent experience acute malnutrition.

The malnutrition figures are consistent with statistics from previous, smaller surveys cited earlier this year by Jean Ziegler, the UN’s expert on malnutrition.

Ziegler drew harsh criticism from US officials in March when he told the UN Commission on Human Rights that child malnutrition rates in Iraq had nearly doubled since 2003. Ziegler said the rise was "a result of the war led by coalition forces."

In addition to war, the new UN report suggests that more than a decade of harsh economic sanctions against Iraq, enthusiastically supported by the US and British governments, has had a major impact on the health of Iraqi children.

"Most Iraqi children today have lived their whole lives under sanctions and war," the study says, noting that "the suffering of children due to war and conflict in Iraq is not limited to those directly wounded or killed by military activities."

The survey notes that children under the age of 15 make up 39 percent of the country’s total population.
Health Care Facilities Dilapidated, Doctors Frustrated

Years of sanctions and war have also had a major negative impact on Iraq’s health care system, once considered among the best in the Middle East, authors of the survey observe.

The list of "current major problems" includes "lack of health personnel, lack of medicines, non-functioning medical equipment and destroyed hospitals and health centers."

Iraqi health officials express a great deal of frustration at their limited capacity to provide services to those who are chronically ill and to the increasingly high number of people wounded in attacks by rebels, foreign occupation troops and Iraqi security forces.

In interviews with the Christian Science Monitor, doctors at Baghdad’s Yarmouk Hospital, said the main problem at is funding for basic medical services. In fact, they say the money needed to run the facility, which has the biggest patient load in Baghdad, has run just out.

"The health ministry does not have money to spend until July," Tala Al-Awqati, a pediatrician at Yarmouk, told CSM. "A lot of things have stopped," she said, "People are not getting what they need from the health services. Money for disinfectant is not there anymore; sometimes we must buy it ourselves."

Iraq’s Health Ministry had requested $2 billion for health care services in 2004 from US controlled funding sources, but reportedly received less than half that amount - only $950 million. Doctors told CSM that due to poor funding and the slow pace of the US-led reconstruction effort, projects to repair hospital water pipes and sewage systems are left undone.

In addition to poor facilities and the lack of medicine and personnel, Al-Awqati suggested that poor security is one reason the infant mortality rate in Iraq remains high under the US-led occupation. "Women can’t reach the hospital at night," she said, referring to the lack of safety near her own facility.

The UN survey reports 32 deaths per 1,000 births during infants’ first year. The report further indicates that "infant and child mortality rates appear to have been steadily increasing" during the last 15 years of war and sanctions. The number of mothers who die during labor was 93 for every 100,000 births, far worse than the rates of maternal mortality in Jordan and Saudi Arabia.

Iraqis Lack Safe Water, Sewage Treatment, Electricity

The condition of Iraq’s health care infrastructure is mirrored by that of the country’s larger civilian infrastructure, which the UN report says is marked by "degraded or disrupted electricity supply, sanitation, and communications."

In comparison with earlier statistics from Iraq on key measures of daily living conditions - such as reliability of electrical service, access to safe drinking water and sanitation systems and access to health care -- the report concludes that "an alarming deterioration in the indicators is apparent."

Of the households surveyed, 51 percent of those in urban areas of southern Iraq live in neighborhoods "where sewage could be seen in the streets." Nationwide, 40 percent of families in urban areas and 30 percent in rural areas reported living in neighborhoods where they can see sewage in the streets.

Iraqis are not fairing much better with respect to clean sources of water. The survey indicates that only 54 percent of households nationwide have access to a "safe and stable" supply of drinking water. An estimated 722,000 Iraqis, the report also notes, rely on sources that are both unreliable and unsafe.

Conditions are worse in rural areas, with 80 percent of families drinking unsafe water, the report says. According to researchers, "the situation is alarming" in the southern governorates of Basra, Dhi Qar, Qadisiya, Wasit, and Babil, located near the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. A large percentage of the population in this region relies on water from polluted rivers and local streams, the report says.

Although 98 percent of Iraqi households are connected to the electrical grid, 78 percent of them report "severe instability" and low quality in the service, according to the survey. As a result, about one in three Iraqi families now relies on alternative sources of electricity such as generators, most of which are shared between households.
Literacy in Decline

The past two decades of war and sanctions have also taken a heavy toll on Iraq’s education system, the report states.

The literacy rate among those between the ages of 15 and 24 is just 74 percent, the survey reveals - a rate researchers note is only "slightly higher than the literacy rate for the population at large." But this figure is lower than literacy rates for those 25-34, "indicating that the younger generation lags behind its predecessors on educational performance."

The survey also indicated that the literacy rate for women in Iraq has stagnated in the past two years. In some governorates, however, the level of female illiteracy is very high.

Overall, the gender gap in literacy is diminishing in Iraq, according to the report - but this appears due more to a drop in the literacy levels of men rather than gains made by women.

© 2005 The NewStandard. All rights reserved. The NewStandard is a non-profit publisher that encourages noncommercial reproduction of its content. Reprints must prominently attribute the author and The NewStandard, hyperlink to http://newstandardnews.net (online) or display newstandardnews.net (print), and carry this notice. For more information or commercial reprint rights, please see the TNS reprint policy. "
 
The objective was to fight terrorists and those who harbor them, not just those directly responsible for 9/11.

And how many of the DEAD Iraqis harbored terrorists???
Must be the same DEAD Iraqis that were hiding WMDs under their beds...
 
As for the weapons of mass destruction, the reason we haven't found them in Iraq is because they are all hiding in Syria next door -
Um, no. They aren't.

We spent $Billions following the invasion of Iraq not just looking for WMD, but looking for any sign of post gulf war 1 existence. Any place they were ever designed, any place parts of them were ever built, any place the weapons were assembled, any place they were stored, and means by which they were transported, etc. We found nothing.

We looked for any people that had designed weapon, parts of weapons, built weapons, stored weapons, transported weapons, transported weapons, etc. We found no one. We looked for family members, support personal, enemies - anyone who might have had any knowledge of any people, programs or products from any stage of the WMD process. Nothing.

Saddam would have not only transported the weapons to Syria, but somehow rid the earth of any evidence that they ever existed at any stage of development, while silencing any person who ever had any credible knowledge of the weapon at any stage of their development. And somehow did this hiding and purging while the country was under constant aerial surveillance and usually swimming with inspectors.

Meanwhile, we've looking into all the intelligence we had that led us to believe the weapons were there, and seen it was full of holes.

There simple weren't any WMD under Saddam post Gulf War 1. Period.

Other than an unwillingness to admit we were wrong, why would anyone believe there were Iraqi WMD's in Syria?
 
A few weeks ago I posted an article about the number of orphanged children due to the high death tolls of the Iraqi people. I had one person respond to the article. I have to wonder how many of those children will grow up to hate the USA for the deaths of their parents.
 
Other than an unwillingness to admit we were wrong, why would anyone believe there were Iraqi WMD's in Syria?

The assertion that the WMD's have been spirited to Syria is the proverbial red herring. Even if one was to make the giant leap of faith required to accept that this is what actually transpired, it still does not strengthen the argument in favor of the war. The status quo would not have changed, powerful WMD's would have simply transferred from one unfriendly regime to another. Is this not what we sought to avoid? I fail to see why those in favor of the war would seek to take solace in the belief that Syria now had stockpiles of Iraq's WMD's.
 
And how many of the DEAD Iraqis harbored terrorists???
Must be the same DEAD Iraqis that were hiding WMDs under their beds...

I am sure many of the dead were terrorrists themselves. I am not happy that so many innocent people are dying as a result of this war, but we cannot just think that all of them are innocent. This is the problem with any war, innocent people will die...

And I didn't realize there weren't any starving children in the world during the Clinton administration... I wonder if any innocent civilians died or starved during the these attacks:

September 3, 1996
President Clinton orders a cruise missile strike against Iraq after Saddam Hussein leads a siege against the Kurdish city of Irbil in northern Iraq.

August 7, 1998
Terrorists bomb American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, killing 224 people, including 20 Americans. United States intelligence believes that Osama bin Laden, a Saudi exile and alleged terrorist leader, is behind the attacks. On August 20, the U.S. military, on orders from President Clinton, launch reprisal strikes on “terrorist related facilities” in Afghanistan, bin Laden’s country of residence, and Sudan. The attacks on Sudan, however, come under particular scrutiny, as a number of international observers and members of the Sudanese government contend that the United States destroyed a civilian pharmaceutical facility, and not a chemical weapons plant, as the Clinton administration reported.

December 16, 1998
President Clinton orders a three-day bombing attack against Iraq after Saddam Hussein refuses to cooperate with United Nations weapons inspectors.

It is all politics people!!! There is always a reason that we the people don't know about for these attacks... be it for oil or to distract a nation from an impeachment hearing... if we the citizens of the world were the ones making the decisions and not these rich politicians(republican or democrat, or whatever else) it would probably be a much better world!
 
If you think Irakis are better off now than before the invasion here is a LONG text from :http://newstandardnews.net/content/?items=1816
Honestly, I believe they will be eventually, however this article is one of the reasons I believe we need to start pulling out. We are not going to be able to fix all of the problems that are listed, nor should we. That needs to be the responsibility of the Iraqi government.

I still believe that when we went in to the war, we did the right thing, despite 20/20 hindsite. To judge the past based on present day knowledge is ludicrous in my opinion (even if I can't spell well), and is an excercise in snobbery. But whether or not we should have went in is not the question, although threads like this one would try to make it so. The question is what to do now, and how soon. I'm with Fitz, I'd love to see a plan. I want to see the Iraqi government taking over more and more responsibility of their citizens. When we see that happening, I believe we will see more and more appreciation from the Iraqi people for our troops - and we'll have more and more of our troops home.
 
I am sure many of the dead were terrorrists themselves. I am not happy that so many innocent people are dying as a result of this war, but we cannot just think that all of them are innocent. This is the problem with any war, innocent people will die...

Care to put a percentage. What is acceptable ?

As far as what was happening before the war , there was a lot outrage because of the conditions people were living on because of the Iral embargo and sanctions. Qite a few hundreds ( thousand's?) died because of those sanctions. In order to punished Saddam , his people paid the price...

But we are dicussion the living condition and the dying conditions of Irakies right now...

Should all gun owners in the US be put to prison because a few gun owner commited grave crimes ?

Was it all right for the canadian governement to send the canadian/italian population to detention camps because of the actions of Mussolini ?

Should the Washinton DC police machine gun whole sections of the city because some of it's inhabitant are criminals ?

I know I am exagerating by the way !!!
 
But what if those living conditions are caused by the war , is what I mean.

A lot of people died of malnutrition , or cold during WW2. These people were living in those conditions because of the war , and they died because of it , even if no bomb of bullet hit them.

I believe you are correct.
 
I am sure many of the dead were terrorrists themselves. I am not happy that so many innocent people are dying as a result of this war, but we cannot just think that all of them are innocent. This is the problem with any war, innocent people will die...

And I didn't realize there weren't any starving children in the world during the Clinton administration... I wonder if any innocent civilians died or starved during the these attacks:

September 3, 1996
President Clinton orders a cruise missile strike against Iraq after Saddam Hussein leads a siege against the Kurdish city of Irbil in northern Iraq.

August 7, 1998
Terrorists bomb American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, killing 224 people, including 20 Americans. United States intelligence believes that Osama bin Laden, a Saudi exile and alleged terrorist leader, is behind the attacks. On August 20, the U.S. military, on orders from President Clinton, launch reprisal strikes on “terrorist related facilities” in Afghanistan, bin Laden’s country of residence, and Sudan. The attacks on Sudan, however, come under particular scrutiny, as a number of international observers and members of the Sudanese government contend that the United States destroyed a civilian pharmaceutical facility, and not a chemical weapons plant, as the Clinton administration reported.

December 16, 1998
President Clinton orders a three-day bombing attack against Iraq after Saddam Hussein refuses to cooperate with United Nations weapons inspectors.

It is all politics people!!! There is always a reason that we the people don't know about for these attacks... be it for oil or to distract a nation from an impeachment hearing... if we the citizens of the world were the ones making the decisions and not these rich politicians(republican or democrat, or whatever else) it would probably be a much better world!

In the 3 examples of attacks you give, did any of the "INTEL" prove to be false?:confused3

It might be "all politics" to you, but if a war was started on false pretenses it really does not compare to isolated strikes in which the pretenses were not false. Think BIG PICTURE.
 
No it wasn't, it was to stop the development of WMD's and destroy all Hussein had, which was 0 by the way..Remember the mushroom cloud images?/ Can you count how many time Bush has said 9-11 when drumming up support for attacking Iraq? He exploited the fear of the American people and that is unconscionable!

WMD was just one reason given. The burden was on Saddam to disclose disposal per the UN (as he had did have them at one time), not on us to find them.

Terrorists are real. Fear is real. I'm glad the USA and its allies took action.
 
To judge the past based on present day knowledge is ludicrous in my opinion (even if I can't spell well), and is an excercise in snobbery.

I agree with your argument to a certain extent. It is not our job to judge the past but rather to study decisions that were made and attempt to incorporate that information into our understanding of the present. Mistakes that were made at the beginning of the conflict can have a demonstrable impact on our present situation. Without a full accounting of the mistaken nature of the past we cannot begin to fully understand the current problem. Our debate should not focus on whether we should have gone to war. Instead it should focus on what can be learned from our mistakes and applied to future situations. History never repeats itself but it sure does have one hell of a loud echo.

"The past is never dead. It's not even past." William Faulkner
 


Disney Vacation Planning. Free. Done for You.
Our Authorized Disney Vacation Planners are here to provide personalized, expert advice, answer every question, and uncover the best discounts. Let Dreams Unlimited Travel take care of all the details, so you can sit back, relax, and enjoy a stress-free vacation.
Start Your Disney Vacation
Disney EarMarked Producer






DIS Facebook DIS youtube DIS Instagram DIS Pinterest DIS Tiktok DIS Twitter

Add as a preferred source on Google

Back
Top Bottom