655,000 Dead

[snowy76]

it's all the fault of the U.S. Sure.

Right on, Mary.

I agree - I'm sure none of the 655,000 were killed by insurgents! And if we pull out now, the insurgents won't kill anyone else. Riiiight.

Speaking of insurgents, Reuters reported that most of the 172 people arrested in the Saudi oil plot last week were trained.... drumroll please... in Iraq!! We can debate the causes of the war or what we were/weren't told, forever. And if our presence there led to the training of even more terrorists, it's sad but it's our mess to clean up. Terrorist camps won't close now because we take our ball and go home.

 

[MAKmom]

I'm highly doubting that over half a million people have been killed. Have people been killed? Yes. THAT many? Oh come on...people can't be that naive to believe that over half a million people have been killed and it's all the fault of the U.S. Sure.

But there's over 26,000,000 alive and no longer under the threat of tyrannical leader. But those numbers never matter...those aren't the numbers that get the headlines. People would MUCH rather focus on some sensational negative newsline so they can find yet another reason to stay mad at everything.

You mean Bush resigned. Sorry you left that wide open. Shame on me

Do you really think they are better off? How so?

 

[BCDisneyFanatic]

Total number killed on 9/11: 2819

Look at all the destruction that has occurred since then. I don't think anyone would doubt that at least 10 times that number of civilians have been killed in Iraq since the US invaded (and I still believe the number is MUCH higher than that).

While I am in no way diminishing the tragedy that occurred on 9/11, I often wonder whether people really GET it that Iraqis are people, just like you and me. A dead brother, father, child isn't going to hurt any less for them than it would if our own brother, father, child died.

I think that it has been pretty much agreed that Iraq had little to nothing to do with 9/11 (especially compared to, say, Saudi Arabia). And if you accept that the US invaded Iraq under false pretenses, are the civilians killed by US bombs in Iraq really any different than the civilians killed in the WTC? Both were killed by misguided leaders who thought they could make the world a better, safer place for THEIR OWN people. The main difference is the much larger number of dead Iraqis, and that tally is still rising.

 

[toto2]

I'm highly doubting that over half a million people have been killed. Have people been killed? Yes. THAT many? Oh come on...people can't be that naive to believe that over half a million people have been killed and it's all the fault of the U.S. Sure.

But there's over 26,000,000 alive and no longer under the threat of tyrannical leader. But those numbers never matter...those aren't the numbers that get the headlines. People would MUCH rather focus on some sensational negative newsline so they can find yet another reason to stay mad at everything.

As I said before , even if the number is half of that , it still a lot of people as a result of the US invasion. It is not the US fault , but it is certainly the result of the removing of Saddam and the now unstable times that have resulted by this invasion. We hardly heard of terrorst attack wittin Irak before the US invasion, so while Saddam was a brutal dictator , the country was more stable.

I could be sarcastic and say that as a result of the 9/11 attack on the US , 296 501 000 were still alive after the attack , so it is no big deal and we are all over reacting about all those death... and all this "war in terror "ia bit naive , because after all , it was only 3000 death...or even this is exagerating , because it was only 2,752 after all...

I am not making fun , trying to put hings in pepective. I do belive that 9/11 was a tragedy and I dont belive wahat I just wrote about it. I am just using it to make a point.

 

[Golf4food]

9/11 by the Numbers

The initial numbers are indelible: 8:46 a.m. and 9:02 a.m. Time the burning towers stood: 56 minutes and 102 minutes. Time they took to fall: 12 seconds. From there, they ripple out.

Total number killed in attacks (official figure as of 9/5/02): 2,819
Number of firefighters and paramedics killed: 343
Number of NYPD officers: 23
Number of Port Authority police officers: 37
Number of WTC companies that lost people: 60
Number of employees who died in Tower One: 1,402
Number of employees who died in Tower Two: 614
Number of employees lost at Cantor Fitzgerald: 658
Number of U.S. troops killed in Operation Enduring Freedom: 22
Number of nations whose citizens were killed in attacks: 115
Ratio of men to women who died: 3:1
Age of the greatest number who died: between 35 and 39
Bodies found "intact": 289
Body parts found: 19,858
Number of families who got no remains: 1,717
Estimated units of blood donated to the New York Blood Center: 36,000
Total units of donated blood actually used: 258
Number of people who lost a spouse or partner in the attacks: 1,609
Estimated number of children who lost a parent: 3,051
Percentage of Americans who knew someone hurt or killed in the attacks: 20
FDNY retirements, January–July 2001: 274
FDNY retirements, January–July 2002: 661
Number of firefighters on leave for respiratory problems by January 2002: 300
Number of funerals attended by Rudy Giuliani in 2001: 200
Number of FDNY vehicles destroyed: 98
Tons of debris removed from site: 1,506,124
Days fires continued to burn after the attack: 99
Jobs lost in New York owing to the attacks: 146,100
Days the New York Stock Exchange was closed: 6
Point drop in the Dow Jones industrial average when the NYSE reopened: 684.81
Days after 9/11 that the U.S. began bombing Afghanistan: 26
Total number of hate crimes reported to the Council on American-Islamic Relations nationwide since 9/11: 1,714
Economic loss to New York in month following the attacks: $105 billion
Estimated cost of cleanup: $600 million
Total FEMA money spent on the emergency: $970 million
Estimated amount donated to 9/11 charities: $1.4 billion
Estimated amount of insurance paid worldwide related to 9/11: $40.2 billion
Estimated amount of money needed to overhaul lower-Manhattan subways: $7.5 billion
Amount of money recently granted by U.S. government to overhaul lower-Manhattan subways: $4.55 billion
Estimated amount of money raised for funds dedicated to NYPD and FDNY families: $500 million
Percentage of total charity money raised going to FDNY and NYPD families: 25
Average benefit already received by each FDNY and NYPD widow: $1 million
Percentage increase in law-school applications from 2001 to 2002: 17.9
Percentage increase in Peace Corps applications from 2001 to 2002: 40
Percentage increase in CIA applications from 2001 to 2002: 50
Number of songs Clear Channel Radio considered "inappropriate" to play after 9/11: 150
Number of mentions of 9/11 at the Oscars: 26
Apartments in lower Manhattan eligible for asbestos cleanup: 30,000
Number of apartments whose residents have requested cleanup and testing: 4,110
Number of Americans who changed their 2001 holiday-travel plans from plane to train or car: 1.4 million
Estimated number of New Yorkers suffering from post-traumatic-stress disorder as a result of 9/11: 422,000

And on to Saddam and Iraq:
http://www.c-span.org/resources/pdf/hrdossier.pdf

If all we accomplished with this war was to remove Saddam Hussein then it was worth it. And if anyone thinks that we are the only ones responsible for the casualties of this war they are wrong, they are still killing their own people, just like Saddam did....

I also wish that this war would end, especially when I see all the 18 year old soldiers who are there... they are still kids and fighting for this country.... and I want them home just as much as anyone, but we cannot leave now and show weakness to these countries who will ony get more bold and attack us at home again....

Amen, FloridaMom.

For some perspective, the American Civil War - fought over 4+ brutal years - saw only around 620,000 casualties total. The fighting in Iraq has been nowhere near as costly, which is why I don't believe that high of a number for one second. Any number is bad, but over-exagerration for the sake of sensationalism is reprehensible.

As for the weapons of mass destruction, the reason we haven't found them in Iraq is because they are all hiding in Syria next door - the UN conveniently allowed Saddam a DOZEN YEARS to hide things while they twiddled their thumbs and cashed their checks from all the under the table money they were getting from Iraqi oil profits, etc.

Syria and Saudi Arabia are a bigger terrorist threat than Iraq, but you have to start somewhere, and Iraq was easier to attack than any other Middle Eastern country, and with the added bonus of getting Saddam out of the way, it was the best choice for offensive opperations. Fighting Iraq wasn't likely to start a larger, regional war involving Israel. Attacking Syria very likely would and then things would get messy. So we hit the easiest target first - Iraq.

 

[DisneyMommyMichelle]

oh that's just so sad

 

[toto2]

Not that Saddam's "secret police" ever kept detailed records on the numbers of people that have "mysteriously" disappeared at their hands (and at Saddam's orders), but accounts collected by Western human rights groups estimated that the number is at least 200,000 people. That is not including the war that Saddam launched against Iran...which Iraq said their toll was around 500,000 people.

So would that many die at the hands of Saddam? Well, yes...they already have.

So , if i understand well , the number given by the western human right groups are righ when they report the death caused by Saddam , but wrong when they report the death toll since the invasion..

The war with Iran was war , so most of there death occure mostly at the hand of Iranian.

The 200 000 people who died at the hand of the "secret police died in 5 years , the number of years since the invasion , or during all of Saddams regime ?( even those years where most western countried did business with Saddam )

Again , I will say that the US is not responsible for all those death , but they put in place the situation that made thes death possible.

 

[Fitswimmer]

9/11 by the Numbers

The initial numbers are indelible: 8:46 a.m. and 9:02 a.m. Time the burning towers stood: 56 minutes and 102 minutes. Time they took to fall: 12 seconds. From there, they ripple out.

Total number killed in attacks (official figure as of 9/5/02): 2,819
Number of firefighters and paramedics killed: 343
Number of NYPD officers: 23
Number of Port Authority police officers: 37
Number of WTC companies that lost people: 60
Number of employees who died in Tower One: 1,402
Number of employees who died in Tower Two: 614
Number of employees lost at Cantor Fitzgerald: 658
Number of U.S. troops killed in Operation Enduring Freedom: 22
Number of nations whose citizens were killed in attacks: 115
Ratio of men to women who died: 3:1
Age of the greatest number who died: between 35 and 39
Bodies found "intact": 289
Body parts found: 19,858
Number of families who got no remains: 1,717
Estimated units of blood donated to the New York Blood Center: 36,000
Total units of donated blood actually used: 258
Number of people who lost a spouse or partner in the attacks: 1,609
Estimated number of children who lost a parent: 3,051
Percentage of Americans who knew someone hurt or killed in the attacks: 20
FDNY retirements, January–July 2001: 274
FDNY retirements, January–July 2002: 661
Number of firefighters on leave for respiratory problems by January 2002: 300
Number of funerals attended by Rudy Giuliani in 2001: 200
Number of FDNY vehicles destroyed: 98
Tons of debris removed from site: 1,506,124
Days fires continued to burn after the attack: 99
Jobs lost in New York owing to the attacks: 146,100
Days the New York Stock Exchange was closed: 6
Point drop in the Dow Jones industrial average when the NYSE reopened: 684.81
Days after 9/11 that the U.S. began bombing Afghanistan: 26
Total number of hate crimes reported to the Council on American-Islamic Relations nationwide since 9/11: 1,714
Economic loss to New York in month following the attacks: $105 billion
Estimated cost of cleanup: $600 million
Total FEMA money spent on the emergency: $970 million
Estimated amount donated to 9/11 charities: $1.4 billion
Estimated amount of insurance paid worldwide related to 9/11: $40.2 billion
Estimated amount of money needed to overhaul lower-Manhattan subways: $7.5 billion
Amount of money recently granted by U.S. government to overhaul lower-Manhattan subways: $4.55 billion
Estimated amount of money raised for funds dedicated to NYPD and FDNY families: $500 million
Percentage of total charity money raised going to FDNY and NYPD families: 25
Average benefit already received by each FDNY and NYPD widow: $1 million
Percentage increase in law-school applications from 2001 to 2002: 17.9
Percentage increase in Peace Corps applications from 2001 to 2002: 40
Percentage increase in CIA applications from 2001 to 2002: 50
Number of songs Clear Channel Radio considered "inappropriate" to play after 9/11: 150
Number of mentions of 9/11 at the Oscars: 26
Apartments in lower Manhattan eligible for asbestos cleanup: 30,000
Number of apartments whose residents have requested cleanup and testing: 4,110
Number of Americans who changed their 2001 holiday-travel plans from plane to train or car: 1.4 million
Estimated number of New Yorkers suffering from post-traumatic-stress disorder as a result of 9/11: 422,000

And on to Saddam and Iraq:
http://www.c-span.org/resources/pdf/hrdossier.pdf

If all we accomplished with this war was to remove Saddam Hussein then it was worth it. And if anyone thinks that we are the only ones responsible for the casualties of this war they are wrong, they are still killing their own people, just like Saddam did....

I also wish that this war would end, especially when I see all the 18 year old soldiers who are there... they are still kids and fighting for this country.... and I want them home just as much as anyone, but we cannot leave now and show weakness to these countries who will ony get more bold and attack us at home again....

If we were talking about Afghanistan, where the plot originated and the mastermind still is, then I'm with you. We have lost sight of the original objective, which was to get the people responsible for 9-11. The Iraqi dead, no matter how many, were NOT responsible for 9-11.

 

[FloridaMom]

If we were talking about Afghanistan, where the plot originated and the mastermind still is, then I'm with you. We have lost sight of the original objective, which was to get the people responsible for 9-11. The Iraqi dead, no matter how many, were NOT responsible for 9-11.

I understand that... but Al-Qaeda is everywhere, not only Afghanistan. These countries that support the terrorist networks should all be held responsible for 9/11. I am not saying that our president did not have his own personal vendetta against Saddam, but Iraq, Syria, Iran, and a lot of other countries have dirty hands on this matter....

Now, should we have done a better job in planning this whole thing? Absolutely yes! Can we get out now or stop supporting our troups? No...

I sincerely hope it is sooner than later... but we should think of our country and our safety first ... The United States is now the villain, we do not have the support of many other countries in the world; but when some tragedy happens we are the first that are expected to respond... and God forbid if we don't because help is not coming from the rest of the world anyway...
Now I am getting out of the subject again

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

I understand that... but Al-Qaeda is everywhere, not only Afghanistan. These countries that support the terrorist networks should all be held responsible for 9/11. I am not saying that our president did not have his own personal vendetta against Saddam, but Iraq, Syria, Iran, and a lot of other countries have dirty hands on this matter....

Now, should we have done a better job in planning this whole thing? Absolutely yes! Can we get out now or stop supporting our troups? No...

I sincerely hope it is sooner than later... but we should think of our country and our safety first ... The United States is now the villain, we do not have the support of many other countries in the world; but when some tragedy happens we are the first that are expected to respond... and God forbid if we don't because help is not coming from the rest of the world anyway...
Now I am getting out of the subject again

The USA is the greatest force for good in the world. True, we are often expected to respond, and other countries won't. It's often a thankless job. Terrorism won't end until the world unites against it.

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

If we were talking about Afghanistan, where the plot originated and the mastermind still is, then I'm with you. We have lost sight of the original objective, which was to get the people responsible for 9-11. The Iraqi dead, no matter how many, were NOT responsible for 9-11.

The objective was to fight terrorists and those who harbor them, not just those directly responsible for 9/11.

 

[FloridaMom]

The USA is the greatest force for good in the world. True, we are often expected to respond, and other countries won't. It's often a thankless job. Terrorism won't end until the world unites against it.

And that is why I absolutely love this country and all it stands for!!!! Everytime I see that big american flag flying high it gives me goose bumps and I can't believe that I live here...

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

And that is why I absolutely love this country and all it stands for!!!! Everytime I see that big american flag flying high it gives me goose bumps and I can't believe that I live here...

Well said!

 

[Fitswimmer]

The objective was to fight terrorists and those who harbor them, not just those directly responsible for 9/11.

must....not.....get....involved....must....not....try....to....inject....FACTS.....

 

[Rock Chalk]

Thank you Golf4food for pointing to the Civil War casualties for perspective. As a history major I only clicked on this thread because I thought the "655,000 Dead" would be in reference to the Civil War. The number stinks of a sensationalist nature that is readily apparent when viewed through a historical context. I do not doubt that large numbers of people have been killed but that number is beyond the scope of what can be reasonably accepted. I was a reluctant supporter of this war during the first half of 2003. When it became glaringly apparent that the promised stockpiles of WMD's would not be found I felt both sheepishly hoodwinked and upset. Due to my politically moderate worldview I had been willing to trust my president and have come to understand in the subsequent years that no one party or faction holds a monopoly on absolute truth. Polemic diatribes aside, I fear that we have removed a brutal, secular, and in many ways stalinist regime and replaced it with a widening power vacuum into which militant groups will compete to assert their control. This will ultimately prove to be more dangerous to U.S. interests than a marginalized Hussein.

 

[toto2]

The objective was to fight terrorists and those who harbor them, not just those directly responsible for 9/11.

But the objective was not to have them start kill each other because of the vacum of power left by the disparition of Saddam. So a country that was almost void of terrorists is now full of them...

 

[dcentity2000]

The USA is the greatest force for good in the world.

By Jingo, he's right!

[/sarcasm]



Rich::

 

[toto2]

Thank you Golf4food for pointing to the Civil War casualties for perspective. As a history major I only clicked on this thread because I thought the "655,000 Dead" would be in reference to the Civil War. The number stinks of a sensationalist nature that is readily apparent when viewed through a historical context. I do not doubt that large numbers of people have been killed but that number is beyond the scope of what can be reasonably accepted. I was a reluctant supporter of this war during the first half of 2003. When it became glaringly apparent that the promised stockpiles of WMD's would not be found I felt both sheepishly hoodwinked and upset. Due to my politically moderate worldview I had been willing to trust my president and have come to understand in the subsequent years that no one party or faction holds a monopoly on absolute truth. Polemic diatribes aside, I fear that we have removed a brutal, secular, and in many ways stalinist regime and replaced it with a widening power vacuum into which militant groups will compete to assert their control. This will ultimately prove to be more dangerous to U.S. interests than a marginalized Hussein.

It would be interesting to know if those big figures are only direct casualties of war ( terrorists attack , guns bombs etc) or if they take into acount the "collateral damadge cause by poor living conditions since the invasion ( famine , poor healthcare , lack of hygene etc) Those death would be indirect results of the destructions of Irakies infrastuctures.

Again , the question should be : did more people died in the five years since the invasion , or during the 5 one before the invasion. I would bet that a lot more did after the demise of Saddam ( but would love to be proven wrong !)

 

[toto2]

The USA is the greatest force for good in the world. .

Unfortunatly , all the problems in the world and in the USA wont be solve by sentences out of the "Star spangle patriotic quote book"

They tried it in China, with Mao's "Red Book" and I am sure they realised that a contry cannot be ruled by patrotism alone.

 

[MAKmom]

It would be interesting to know if those big figures are only direct casualties of war ( terrorists attack , guns bombs etc) or if they take into acount the "collateral damadge cause by poor living conditions since the invasion ( famine , poor healthcare , lack of hygene etc) Those death would be indirect results of the destructions of Irakies infrastuctures.

Again , the question should be : did more people died in the five years since the invasion , or during the 5 one before the invasion. I would bet that a lot more did after the demise of Saddam ( but would love to be proven wrong !)

They are not direct casualties of war. It is also deaths from living conditions.