2 Races....Same Day Advice

[dragitoff]

I posed this scenario to Coach in a PM, but I thought I'd ask others as well to get some board advice.

I'd like to run a fairly large local race in early December. I ran this race 2 years ago but skipped it last year because I was training for the WDW full marathon. Since I'm running the half this year, I'd like to do it again, but I didn't want to just run the 10k or the 5k. I wanted to do both. I want to do more than just run them though. I want to be competitive in them. My normal training schedule (I'm training for a March Full and the WDW half simultaneously) would have me running 10 miles that day.

Yesterday I ran a 10k (PR'd) in 51:20 and then finished that mile running to make it an even 7 miles. I then walked for almost 2 minutes and then ran the 5k in 23:50 and was only off about 20 seconds from my 5k PR.

The question I have for the board is what are some good practices,exercises, etc. between races to stay loose? The 10k begins at 8am and the 5k doesn't start until 9:30am. I'll have about 40 minutes between races to keep my legs loose and avoid any lactic acid buildup trouble.

I am extremely competitive and I'd have a chance at placing in both races in my age group with solid (not even PR runs) and this is a race of about 1000 people so it would be a good one to challenge myself in. I haven't raced since earlier this year so it would also give me some pre-WDW marathon weekend race time to get over any pre-race jitters.

 

[cewait]

He answered, also.

I would like to hear what others suggest before posting a summary of my reply.

This is really a great subject. Several race directors are offering back to back events in the same day. Locally, Track Shack has a race series where one can sign up for all offerings of the season at one time. In this series are two races with back to back races. Track Shack’s two races are oriented both ways… The first event is a long race followed by a short race. The other event has the short race first then the long.

I know how I am handling it and how I would coach the turn, but there are several ways to potentially skin the cat.

 

[dragitoff]

He answered, also.

I would like to hear what others suggest before posting a summary of my reply.

This is really a great subject. Several race directors are offering back to back events in the same day. Locally, Track Shack has a race series where one can sign up for all offerings of the season at one time. In this series are two races with back to back races. Track Shack’s two races are oriented both ways… The first event is a long race followed by a short race. The other event has the short race first then the long.

I know how I am handling it and how I would coach the turn, but there are several ways to potentially skin the cat.

Just replied to your reply Coach and looking forward to seeing others responses. I'm always looking for ways to challenge myself (as if half and full marathons weren't enough...) so this was something I thought about doing in between races while training, but I'm not sure of the method of attack.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

When running multiple races, I followed a simple rule to remember - cut it in half. By that I mean two things:

Whatever your standard cool-down routine is, cut it in half. Then rest and hydrate, but don't sit still for more than 5 minutes at a time. Keep loose, don't get sedentary. Ballistic stretching is awesome in helping stay loose.

Then comes the warm up for your second race - but since you have already run a race, cut it in half. Whatever your normal warm-up routine might be, cut it in half and you will be ready to go.

I don't experiment with new things on race day. My warm-up usually consists of a few simple things:

10 minute easy run, 3 minutes of plyo, then 4 sets of strides at my goal race pace. I then stay loose with "ballistic" stretching (moving stretches) until it is time to line up.

My cool-down is generally a 5 minute easy run, then 5 minutes of walking, then "static" stretching for 10-15 minutes.

 

[dragitoff]

As I mentioned to Coach in our PM convo, there is a circular walking track on-site where the race is being held so I could utilize that to stay loose. The 10k starts at 8am and the 5k doesn't start until 9:30 so I'll have about 40 minutes between races. My plan was to walk around for about 10 minutes post-10k and then do some light jogging around the track just to stay loose for 10-20 minutes. Just before the 5k, I will stay walking around to keep my legs loose and do some short little sprints every few minutes. During my walking post-10k, I was going to fuel as if I were doing a long run (3 Clif Shot Bloks and a little half Gatorade/half water)

 

[paxsarah]

I'm trying to think of what I would do in this situation. My thought is if I have a good distance base, i.e. in half-marathon shape or better, for me I think I'd be best off keeping moving almost the entire time. My biggest problem would be if I stiffened up by staying still too long, so I'd spend most of the time in an easy walk with some jogging thrown in, and be sure to fuel after the 10k.

 

[dragitoff]

I'm trying to think of what I would do in this situation. My thought is if I have a good distance base, i.e. in half-marathon shape or better, for me I think I'd be best off keeping moving almost the entire time. My biggest problem would be if I stiffened up by staying still too long, so I'd spend most of the time in an easy walk with some jogging thrown in, and be sure to fuel after the 10k.

Excellent point and something I had considered. I'm running 10-15 miles every weekend for long runs so I stay in "half-marathon shape" virtually all the time. The key here is I want to run these races competitively, not just complete them. My pace breakdowns are as follows:

5k about 7:45 per mile
10k about 8:00 per mile
Half about 8:20-8:30 per mile

Since I have 15-30 seconds in pace between each type of race, I couldn't maximize my effort for the 10k and 5k. I might could do it for one race and stay running for the 30-40 minutes between races, but either way, I'll have that lag time at the start of the race. It's about 1000 runners but no corrals so it takes a while to get everyone lined up and through the gate. If I ran the entire time, I'd log about 14 miles or so that day which is doable, but not at a overall goal pace of about 8mm for the day.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

I think that the strides before you start the 5k will be critical since you will have run a 10k fast, but not at your 5k pace and then done some easy running/walking to stay loose. Those strides will get your mind "recalibrated" for your 5k race pace. If you run/jog the entire time between races, your 5k pace will suffer.

 

[WhereInFlorida]

When running multiple races, I followed a simple rule to remember - cut it in half. By that I mean two things:

Whatever your standard cool-down routine is, cut it in half. Then rest and hydrate, but don't sit still for more than 5 minutes at a time. Keep loose, don't get sedentary. Ballistic stretching is awesome in helping stay loose.

Then comes the warm up for your second race - but since you have already run a race, cut it in half. Whatever your normal warm-up routine might be, cut it in half and you will be ready to go.

^ This.

 

[dragitoff]

I think that the strides before you start the 5k will be critical since you will have run a 10k fast, but not at your 5k pace and then done some easy running/walking to stay loose. Those strides will get your mind "recalibrated" for your 5k race pace. If you run/jog the entire time between races, your 5k pace will suffer.

Great point! I should spend a few minutes doing some 5k pace running just before loading up into the starting chute then even if only for a few minutes?

I'm no different than a lot of runners that I have to slow myself down at the beginning of races. I have a tendency to go out at a sub 7 minute pace for the first 0.5-0.75 mile before slowing down because I can't maintain that pace over a 5k. I was kind of hoping the somewhat tired legs would keep me more in my "pace" range. I've been working a lot with negative splits on longer runs. Maybe that focus will come into play here for this race as well.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

Great point! I should spend a few minutes doing some 5k pace running just before loading up into the starting chute then even if only for a few minutes?

I'm no different than a lot of runners that I have to slow myself down at the beginning of races. I have a tendency to go out at a sub 7 minute pace for the first 0.5-0.75 mile before slowing down because I can't maintain that pace over a 5k. I was kind of hoping the somewhat tired legs would keep me more in my "pace" range. I've been working a lot with negative splits on longer runs. Maybe that focus will come into play here for this race as well.

I hate negative splits because it tells you that you could have had a better finishing time, but in a 5k I have the same tendencies. I have never gone from 10k to 5k, but I have done the opposite and it absolutely helps with your first mile. The "rush" isn't as high to start the second run, so you can control your pace better.

Good luck!

 

[dragitoff]

I hate negative splits because it tells you that you could have had a better finishing time, but in a 5k I have the same tendencies. I have never gone from 10k to 5k, but I have done the opposite and it absolutely helps with your first mile. The "rush" isn't as high to start the second run, so you can control your pace better.

Good luck!

I've only recently become enamored with negative splits as I've seen some of my fastest (and by a long shot) runs when running negative splits. Now, in all honesty, I simply took the first few miles easy and ended up rolling the last half, but I still PR'd in a half (non-race) and by almost 4 minutes. My overall pace was nearly 20 seconds per mile faster than my previous best. That same approach helped me PR 3 half marathons, a 5k, a 10k, and a 4 mile trail race earlier this year.

I've recently lost a ton of weight of so the increased speed could be related to that, but I'm believing it was a product of negative split!

 

[cewait]

I think we hit most of the same points.

I do like the cut it in half thought. It is a simple way to layout the thought process between warm down, idle and warm up.

Definitely do not want to stop and sit during a short turn.

One thing I have not suggested behind the curtain is running a MAF assessment. Maximum Aerobic Function (MAF) the way we ran it at Lifetime was a four mile run at just a few beats below Anaerobic Threshold. Mentally, its a tough test and is run pretty much as a positive split run. Actually, we would throw out a test if the runner failed to add time for each mile; the reason being they were not at max aero function in the earlier miles if they could improve times.

 

[dragitoff]

I think we hit most of the same points.

I do like the cut it in half thought. It is a simple way to layout the thought process between warm down, idle and warm up.

Definitely do not want to stop and sit during a short turn.

One thing I have not suggested behind the curtain is running a MAF assessment. Maximum Aerobic Function (MAF) the way we ran it at Lifetime was a four mile run at just a few beats below Anaerobic Threshold. Mentally, its a tough test and is run pretty much as a positive split run. Actually, we would throw out a test if the runner failed to add time for each mile; the reason being they were not at max aero function in the earlier miles if they could improve times.

Coach, I just got a little scared there.

That sounds like almost every 5k I used to run!

 

[cewait]

Coach, I just got a little scared there.

That sounds like almost every 5k I used to run!

The MAF has it's place. A series of 5-6 taken at a 6 week interval will tell one a lot about how their training is working.

I tend to run 5k's as a positive split more because of my lack of discipline than plan. I tend to act like a stray dog chasing shiny objects at the start of the race. Though my PR was a V shaped split. The first and last mile were the same while the middle mile was a little off.

All this has me thinking now how to attack this weekend's 5 + 2 races. The five miler is first and the 2 miler starts one hour later.

 

[dragitoff]

The MAF has it's place. A series of 5-6 taken at a 6 week interval will tell one a lot about how their training is working.

I tend to run 5k's as a positive split more because of my lack of discipline than plan. I tend to act like a stray dog chasing shiny objects at the start of the race. Though my PR was a V shaped split. The first and last mile were the same while the middle mile was a little off.

All this has me thinking now how to attack this weekend's 5 + 2 races. The five miler is first and the 2 miler starts one hour later.

I'm the Uber planner for everything! Of course, I have to be to juggle everything. I'm a father to two active girls (cross country for DD12 and horseback riding w/ shows for DD9), husband, business owner, a youth pastor so my time is limited. I gave up golf a year ago because I only had time for one hobby and running is it! That planner sometimes takes over when I start laying out training programs, but I've also started relaxing more and just enjoying it. My wife tells me all the time, and she's right, that I tend to overthink things.

I have a plan, but I also listen to my body and just do what feels like it's what I should be doing. Sometimes that means cutting a run short and sometimes it means pushing further. Either way, I like all this feedback because it gives me plenty to digest and plan. When it all comes down to it, I'm going to listen to my body. It's a lot nicer to me since I dropped 70lbs. off it from running. I guess you could say, we're on speaking terms now.