Would you join a lawsuit against DVC to stop/revert the 2020 reallocation?

[Dean]

Fear of a lawsuit that they didn't want to take a chance they would lose and then have to follow rules dictated by the outcome of the lawsuit. There may be other things discovered that they have done in the past that they may have to unwind.

I believe Zavandor stated they were asked if they looking to be bought out of their contract, do you think for one minute if they stated "yes" that as part of that agreement they would be required to sign a "nondisclosure agreement and agree not to make any future posts on this topic"? I think they would have.

I can tell you they offered to buy mine back early on even though I bought resale and make me whole, the subject was the free passes. As for non disclosure, I'm not sure if they still do but at one time they added non disclosure when they took a contract ROFR. I refused to sign it since it wasn't part of the original contract, I'd already disclosed the sale price and I was feeling a bit ornery. I was willing to have the sale fall through doing so, but they closed anyway.

I can see the court proceedings now before a judge (we've waved a jury trial). On one hand you've got a clear contractual representations of how the points are formulated, state statues that are directly applicable and in favor of the non lockoff's only, for an option that contractually we've given them absolute control without input for an issue that was part of the system from the start. On the other hand you'd basically got nuance and the little guy.

 

[Spark]

DVDs received in 2007 and 2012 say this:
“But here’s a very cool secret about vacation points. Drumroll please. The total number of vacation points on this chart can never change for the life of your membership. While reservation requirements for seasons and dates will vary from year to year, the total number of vacation points for the year will be exactly the same this year as it will be many years later. Imagine bragging……”
Sometime in 2012, wording in the DVDs was changed to this:
"Aside from normal point fluctuation from year to year, this number will never increase unless accommodations are added to a resort and
while vacation points may be adjusted from year to year, it's important to know that any increase or decrease to any given day must be offset by an equal increase or decrease for another day."
So the way it was being presented in the sales literature for years and years was suddenly changed sometime in 2012...

 

[CarolMN]

None of the changes would have bothered me much (if at all), if Disney wasn't going to substantially (IMO) increase its take on breakage income.

If there were no cap on breakage, I would be OK with the increase in the lock off premium, even though it would NOT benefit me personally. Without the cap, the change would result in increased availability for members and lower dues, because all the proceeds for the unbooked nights would go to reduce annual dues.

FWIW, I believe the changes were legal according to the POS, MSPOS and FL statutes. However, while I do not believe there was any nefarious intent by those who redid the charts (most likely low to mid-level bureaucrats), the fact that Disney is ultimately the one that benefits the most from the increase in the lock off premium is a bitter pill to swallow.

 

[TheMick424]

I'm trying to wrap my head around this...are there any resorts which are solely lock-off 2BR units (and no 3BR or other dedicated sizes)?

 

[bobbiwoz]

None of the changes would have bothered me much (if at all), if Disney wasn't going to substantially (IMO) increase its take on breakage income.

If there were no cap on breakage, I would be OK with the increase in the lock off premium, even though it would NOT benefit me personally. Without the cap, the change would result in increased availability for members and lower dues, because all the proceeds for the unbooked nights would go to reduce annual dues.

FWIW, I believe the changes were legal according to the POS, MSPOS and FL statutes. However, while I do not believe there was any nefarious intent by those who redid the charts (most likely low to mid-level bureaucrats), the fact that Disney is ultimately the one that benefits the most from the increase in the lock off premium is a bitter pill to swallow.

Because it seems to many that the new charts were legal, and because what Carol mentions about the cap on breakage, I am having a hard time dealing with the fact that I paid so much money for something with this terrible (to me) consequence. The smaller than two bedroom units could go up without an ultimate limit, but in increments of 20% a year. Why on earth did I agree to that?

Not every night, but I have hepalups and woosels bothering my sleep.

 

[EllieBride]

DVDs received in 2007 and 2012 say this:
“But here’s a very cool secret about vacation points. Drumroll please. The total number of vacation points on this chart can never change for the life of your membership. While reservation requirements for seasons and dates will vary from year to year, the total number of vacation points for the year will be exactly the same this year as it will be many years later. Imagine bragging……”
Sometime in 2012, wording in the DVDs was changed to this:
"Aside from normal point fluctuation from year to year, this number will never increase unless accommodations are added to a resort and
while vacation points may be adjusted from year to year, it's important to know that any increase or decrease to any given day must be offset by an equal increase or decrease for another day."
So the way it was being presented in the sales literature for years and years was suddenly changed sometime in 2012...

I can't LIKE this enough!!!!

And I posted over the weekend, but for some reason I don't think it showed up, so this is a belated thanks to all of you who made the calls and sent the emails that resulted in the reversal on the 2020 charts. I've been following along, trying to find a concise and articulate way to express my own personal concerns to management and meanwhile, you got the job done. My hat is off to you!!!!! I really hope you know how much your diligence is appreciated for keeping watch over what was being done with the charts and for staying on top of this. I know a lot of people were saying you had it wrong, but I am totally with you on this. Great job!!!

 

[Matty B13]

I'm trying to wrap my head around this...are there any resorts which are solely lock-off 2BR units (and no 3BR or other dedicated sizes)?

I know VGF and BWV are either entirely lock-offs or mainly lock-offs, there are others.

 

[zavandor]

Because it seems to many that the new charts were legal

This is yet to be seen. Some have expressed their opinion that everything was legal. But DVC has yet to come back to me with answers to my questions. If it was legal, it should be easy for them to do so.
Also, as attested by a similar thread in 2010-1 with the week days/week end reallocation, they had a lot of backlash and yet they didn't back off, like they did this time. What's different now?
I plan to contact them again and ask for a face to face meeting for when I'll be in Orlando next time, in September, hopefully so we can get a clear idea about what is allowed and what is not for points reallocations.

 

[Dean]

I was thinking more

 

[dfb]

This is yet to be seen. Some have expressed their opinion that everything was legal. But DVC has yet to come back to me with answers to my questions. If it was legal, it should be easy for them to do so.
Also, as attested by a similar thread in 2010-1 with the week days/week end reallocation, they had a lot of backlash and yet they didn't back off, like they did this time. What's different now?
I plan to contact them again and ask for a face to face meeting for when I'll be in Orlando next time, in September, hopefully so we can get a clear idea about what is allowed and what is not for points reallocations.

Just trying to get caught up on this issue - been out of the loop for a while.

Was the issue, with the originally proposed 2020 chart, the total points summated on the chart increased or that points required for one type room (a studio) increased and the points required for the another type room (2 BR) decreased equally?

 

[skier_pete]

I'm trying to wrap my head around this...are there any resorts which are solely lock-off 2BR units (and no 3BR or other dedicated sizes)?

Not sure what you mean by "solely" lock-offs. OKW, SSR, VGF, BLT only have dedicated 2-BR and dedicated 2-BR lock-offs (AK-Kidani does as well, but the point charts are lumped in with Jambo.) So in those cases - ALL the studios and 1-BRs come from lock-offs.

 

[CarolMN]

I'm trying to wrap my head around this...are there any resorts which are solely lock-off 2BR units (and no 3BR or other dedicated sizes)?

I know VGF and BWV are either entirely lock-offs or mainly lock-offs, there are others.

BWV has 7 Grand Villas (3 Bedrooms) and also 97 dedicated studios and 130 dedicated 1 bedrooms. All of the 149 2-bedroom villas are lock offs.

VGF has no dedicated studios or 1 bedrooms, but 47 dedicated 2-bedrooms & 47
2-bedroom lock offs, plus 6 Grand Villas.

The DIS DVC Resource Center has a post that lists all of the DVC resorts and their make up:

DVC Villas by Resort

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I'm trying to wrap my head around this...are there any resorts which are solely lock-off 2BR units (and no 3BR or other dedicated sizes)?

My first thought was that you meant where the only 2BR's are lock-offs and that is at BWV. No other resort is like that.

There are several resorts where the studios and 1BR's come only from 2BR lockoffs and there are also dedicated 2BR's to cover that segment. OKW, SSR, Kidani, BLT and VGF.

 

[TheMick424]

Not sure what you mean by "solely" lock-offs. OKW, SSR, VGF, BLT only have dedicated 2-BR and dedicated 2-BR lock-offs (AK-Kidani does as well, but the point charts are lumped in with Jambo.) So in those cases - ALL the studios and 1-BRs come from lock-offs.

To be honest, I'm not sure what I mean either. LOL! But my question was more about are there situations where a DVC resort is entirely comprised of 2BR lock-off units, where there are no dedicated units or other sizes. From what I've read in this thread it seems like for the purposes of points/reallocation the only unit that really counts legally is the entirety of the lock-off, not the individual components. Is that true? And the point of contention is whether they can reallocate across unit types.

I'm just trying to better understand the issue to explain it to my DH.

 

[DaveNan]

Just trying to get caught up on this issue - been out of the loop for a while.

Was the issue, with the originally proposed 2020 chart, the total points summated on the chart increased or that points required for one type room (a studio) increased and the points required for the another type room (2 BR) decreased equally?

No.
On the original 2020 charts points for studios went up 1-2 points per night. Points for 1BR went up 1-3 points per night.
2BR came down 0-1 points.

The total points went up, if Lock-off 2 BR were booked as a studio and a 1BR.

The issue is the "points never go up" statement only applies to deeded units. So at most resorts the bulk of the studios & 1BR come from deeded lockoff 2BR units. They increased the LO premium (the number of points for booking a studio and 1BR versus the number of points to book a 2BR). Per the wording in the POS this is allowed, but this nuance was not understood by many, and contradicts the wording used in sales and marketing.

 

[Dean]

To be honest, I'm not sure what I mean either. LOL! But my question was more about are there situations where a DVC resort is entirely comprised of 2BR lock-off units, where there are no dedicated units or other sizes. From what I've read in this thread it seems like for the purposes of points/reallocation the only unit that really counts legally is the entirety of the lock-off, not the individual components. Is that true? And the point of contention is whether they can reallocate across unit types.

I'm just trying to better understand the issue to explain it to my DH.

There are no resorts where all of the villas are lockoff's. BWV all 2 BR are lockoff's but there are dedicated studio and 1 BR. At OKW there are a mix of 2 BR dedicated and lockoff's. Likewise there are no resorts without lockoff's that I can think of.

 

[skier_pete]

To be honest, I'm not sure what I mean either. LOL! But my question was more about are there situations where a DVC resort is entirely comprised of 2BR lock-off units, where there are no dedicated units or other sizes. From what I've read in this thread it seems like for the purposes of points/reallocation the only unit that really counts legally is the entirety of the lock-off, not the individual components. Is that true? And the point of contention is whether they can reallocate across unit types.

I'm just trying to better understand the issue to explain it to my DH.

So there are MANY issues discussed in this thread - but the one particular to lockoffs was at a resort like VGF or SSR where there are only 2-BR, 3-BR, and 2-BR lockoffs that make up the ACTUAL points, Disney was going to raise the amount of points it takes to book both studios and 1-BR across ALL seasons. While it can't change the # of points that make up a resort - since these rooms count as 2-BRs for total points, the amount of points to book studios and 1-BR CAN be changed. Their reasons were questioned - many saw it has a cash grab (increase breakage because more points are needed to book rooms) - they ended up backing down and reverting to the 2019 charts.

 

[TheMick424]

So there are MANY issues discussed in this thread - but the one particular to lockoffs was at a resort like VGF or SSR where there are only 2-BR, 3-BR, and 2-BR lockoffs that make up the ACTUAL points, Disney was going to raise the amount of points it takes to book both studios and 1-BR across ALL seasons. While it can't change the # of points that make up a resort - since these rooms count as 2-BRs for total points, the amount of points to book studios and 1-BR CAN be changed. Their reasons were questioned - many saw it has a cash grab (increase breakage because more points are needed to book rooms) - they ended up backing down and reverting to the 2019 charts.

So many issues it is hard to keep them all straight. Thanks for the info and synopsis. I appreciate it!

 

[kristenrice]

There are no resorts where all of the villas are lockoff's. BWV all 2 BR are lockoff's but there are dedicated studio and 1 BR. At OKW there are a mix of 2 BR dedicated and lockoff's. Likewise there are no resorts without lockoff's that I can think of.

What about AKV, where Jambo House has ONLY lock-offs, and owners have deeded interests in units that are specific to Jambo House? Would that have any impact? (Oops, actually, I forgot that JH also has 8 dedicated studios in the value category.)

 

[skier_pete]

For those that keep asking - here's the breakdown of all the resorts and the room types. The last column is the percent of the resort rooms that are made up of 2-BR lock-offs. (This does NOT indicate the percentage of POINTS that is made up of lock-offs.) Increasing the lockoff premium affected a LARGE portion of the inventory. Overall 39.6% of all units across DVC are 2-BR lock-offs declared as 2-BR. If every one were broken into studios/1-BRs they combine to a whopping 56.7 % of all bookable units. (Again, that's not % of points.)


Note: I put Treehouses, Bungalows, and Cabins in their own category as "Specialty Villas", also used this for the hotel rooms at Vero Beach.