Will GM or Chrysler going under affect you?

[dvcgirl]

Its too late. Our house, which we bought for 128K was the cheapest house in Livonia in 2004. Today its worth 108. We owe 118. Screwed, we are

Anyone who thinks what we are dealing with here in Michigan is similar to what is going on in the rest of the country is just doesn't get it. Everyone I know either works in automotive or relies on automotive workers for customers. If GM goes under, we might as well be hit by a sunami, it will be like a massive disaster. Everyone, from doctors who won't get paid by patients without health insurance, to ballet instructors whose students parents won't have jobs, will be affected.

Yes, I completely agree. What you are all dealing with in Michigan is nothing like the housing boom/bust cycles playing out in California, Florida and Arizona. Although, I think Florida will be flat for a long time because a lot of job creation there was mostly from the housing boom itself. The service/tourism industry there can't support a robust return in housing. And all of those baby boomers who were going to buy second homes there can no longer afford to do so. Florida used to be a cheap place to live, but it isn't any longer....not since the hurricanes went through in 2004.

Michigan is a whole 'nuther matter though. Michigan needs to re-invent itself in some way. It needs to become a "Silicon Valley-like" purpose that isn't linked to the auto industry. Maybe the Green technology boom that we'll hopefully see will dig in some roots in Michigan to help out the job market? I don't know, but that's what I'd hope for if I lived there.

 

[mafibisha]

If you don't think the automakers affect you, you are living in Fantasyland.

And sadly, many are indeed, living there.

Go take a look around your house....at all of the things in it, at all labels on the items you're wearing right now.... and tell me how much of it was made in America. Your appliances, your sneakers, your furniture....take a good look. I'm betting that most of it, a very high percentage in fact, was not made in the good old U.S of A.

Exactly!!

So you DO understand thats clearly why we should ALL keep foreign made cars out of our garages!

 

[Colleen27]

Very true! You could close 1/2 the grocery stores, 2/3 the restaurants, 2/3 other small businesses and that would only be the beginning...

To say Oklahoma Dust bowl furniture packed on the trucks leaving town image might NOT be so far out of line for Michigan if the big 3 failed.

Yep. My community is teetering on the brink of that right now. Two of our three gas stations, one of two groceries, two of four bars, one of three convenience stores, one of three fast food joints, two of four family type restaurants, one of the marinas that are our primary industry, the antique store, the ice cream shop, the gym, the video store... All out of business in the last year. This year, our district is closing one of the elementary schools because all 4 schools in the district are operating at less than 50% of the capacity they were built for. There are 4 vacant homes on my block alone, all foreclosures. And this is in a nice community, small town atmosphere, excellent schools, etc. The poorer, less desirable areas are faring even worse.

 

[mafibisha]

It's a matter of scale. If Nissan disappears, it's bad for a fairly finite amount of people. It's terrible, but it's not like the Titanic going down and sucking us all with it.

If Chrysler and GM go, there are a quarter of a million jobs gone OVERNIGHT, then another 2 million supply & other support jobs gone within a matter of months, and then all the teachers, nurses, sub shops etc. that depend on the income from those millions of jobs.

This needs repeating!

ITA so am repeating it again.


As another poster said, too many people are living in FANTASYLAND if they don't think they'll be affected. (and we don't mean the one in the world!)

 

[dvcgirl]

And sadly, many are indeed, living there.





Exactly!!

So you DO understand thats clearly why we should ALL keep foreign made cars out of our garages!

I do understand.....no sarcasm necessary. I also understand that we are now living in a global economy and so we'd better get used to it.

We no longer live in a world where one will graduate from high school, work 40 years for the same company and retire with a gold watch, and a fat pension which includes free health care. Those who realize and adapt to the world we live in will be successful. The rest will be scratching their heads looking around wondering what happened to their lives.

 

[fussymonkey]

Michigan needs to re-invent itself in some way. It needs to become a "Silicon Valley-like" purpose that isn't linked to the auto industry. Maybe the Green technology boom that we'll hopefully see will dig in some roots in Michigan to help out the job market?

Yes, this is what we're all hoping. The green technologies, battery technologies and biosciences. The problem we have here- and this is no one's fault but our own- is that our political machine is completely broken. I'm not talking party politics, but rather everything here is Detroit vs. rest of the state, horrible racial politics. I swear, there's an IQ test you have to take before running for Detroit city coucil- in order to qualify you must fail. Its painful and our state politicans are no better, though thier issues are different. Our politicans of both parties are failing citizens on mass scale.

Its hard to invite investment when you have morons at the wheel, as we have here.

I do understand.....no sarcasm necessary. I also understand that we are now living in a global economy and so we'd better get used to it.

We no longer live in a world where one will graduate from high school, work 40 years for the same company and retire with a gold watch, and a fat pension which includes free health care. Those who realize and adapt to the world we live in will be successful. The rest will be scratching their heads looking around wondering what happened to their lives.

This is true, but is hardly helpful for folks that have been in manufacturing for 30 years and that's all they know. Sure anyone can go back to school but there aren't jobs here for anyone, let alone a 50 year old recent college graduate.

BTW, to the person who refuses to feel guilty for the Honda in thier driveway: please don't feel guilty. You buying that Honda has done more to position GM for future sucess. If they didn't have to start competing over the last decade, they'd be more screwed than they already are. But if you are refusing to look at domestic cars in the future becasue of hearsay from your neighbors...that's another story. Ford has amazing quality these days, so does GM. Chrysler, oth, is crap.

 

[luvmy3]

In all seriousness I am glad you have a Ford product as well as your Honda.

You hit the exact point... your Honda costs less BECAUSE the foreign govts subsidize the health care costs of workers... US does not and leaves it all to GM, Ford and Crysler to pony up. Sort of all falls back to the dysfunctional healthcare system we have in our country.

I truely hope the Big 3 and our govt. can use this crisis to restructure and fix what is wrong with how they operate and I hope the cost of jobs will not be too great... including the one that supports my family.

What industries in the US does the gov't subsidize the costs of healthcare for? Why should the Big 3 be any different than any other comapny? If they can't afford free healthcare for their employees, maybe they are the ones who should pony up just like the employess in any other industry do

 

[Colleen27]

Yes, this is what we're all hoping. The green technologies, battery technologies and biosciences. The problem we have here- and this is no one's fault but our own- is that our political machine is completely broken. I'm not talking party politics, but rather everything here is Detroit vs. rest of the state, horrible racial politics. I swear, there's an IQ test you have to take before running for Detroit city coucil- in order to qualify you must fail. Its painful and our state politicans are no better, though thier issues are different. Our politicans of both parties are failing citizens on mass scale.

Its hard to invite investment when you have morons at the wheel, as we have here.

Yep. The "us vs them" crap within the area is disgusting - black vs white, city vs suburbs, with no one willing to accept that the whole area thrives or fails together. And God forbid someone who isn't the right color wants to make a difference... There was an article in the Detroit paper recently about a businessman who wants to buy up a large chunk of vacant land within the city (for those not familiar with the area, approx. 1/3 of the land area within the city of Detroit is vacant) and convert it into a working farm and recreation area. It is a *brilliant* idea that solves several major problems, from the blight of all that abandoned property to the lack of full service groceries/access to fresh produce within city limits, and creates jobs to boot, but to read the reader comments in response to the story you'd have thought that he proposed a plantation staffed by slaves.

I hate to say it, but that attitude is a big part of why I got out of working with community agriculture groups in the city and focused my energy in the much less needy community in which I live.

 

[Colleen27]

What industries in the US does the gov't subsidize the costs of healthcare for? Why should the Big 3 be any different than any other comapny? If they can't afford free healthcare for their employees, maybe they are the ones who should pony up just like the employess in any other industry do

That's sort of the point - the US doesn't subsidize health care, and that is one of the major reasons our industries cannot compete on a global level against companies located in nations that do. Toyota pays health care costs for about 10% of their total workforce. GM pays it for 100% of theirs. That is a hanidcap right from the start.

 

[luvmy3]

That's sort of the point - the US doesn't subsidize health care, and that is one of the major reasons our industries cannot compete on a global level against companies located in nations that do. Toyota pays health care costs for about 10% of their total workforce. GM pays it for 100% of theirs. That is a hanidcap right from the start.

Thats not the Gov'ts fault or problem, its a GM problem. In this day and age when we do need to compete with other nations, American businesses can't expect to be able to continue to run they did 50 years ago. Employees need to be responsible for their healtcare costs regardless of how our overall healthcare system works. Other industries do it and are surviving, its time the auto follow suit.

 

[joybeth]

There is so much misinformation in the media right now. Anyone who thinks that GM quality lags behind the foriegns needs to read JD Power and other reliability surveys. GM is a leader in quality. GM products are also some of the most cutting edge styles around. Anyone one see the new Camaro? Check it out. Read the reviews from Motor Trend and Car and Driver.


Joybeth[/QUOTE

]

I personally do not care what JD Power or the media says. I listen to my neighbors, friends, and family. The word is still out that GM, Chrysler and Ford do not match on quality of a Honda, Toyota, etc. Sorry if you don't like it, but I am not alone in my thinking. The big 3 should have thought of that a long time ago. In this area you do not see many old nor new Camaros around. Why try to reinvent a car people that was so cool in 1985?? Hello it is 2009!

I just do not feel guilty buying a Honda that was made in OHIO or a Toyota that was made in KY.

Please do not get me wrong I do feel bad for those losing thier jobs. It stinks and I am sure it will affect us somehow, just like all the banks going under affected us.

Ummmm, yeah....this is EXACTLY what the problem is. People who say "I don't care what the facts are, I just want to believe what I believe." The word is still out there by who? And the reason that you don't see many new Camaros is that THEY ARE JUST HITTING THE DEALERSHIP. And your comment about reinventing a car that was cool in 1985.....HELLO! shows how little you know about great American cars.

 

[fussymonkey]

Thats not the Gov'ts fault or problem, its a GM problem. In this day and age when we do need to compete with other nations, American businesses can't expect to be able to continue to run they did 50 years ago. Employees need to be responsible for their healtcare costs regardless of how our overall healthcare system works. Other industries do it and are surviving, its time the auto follow suit.

Really? What industries don't provide healthcare to full time employees across the board? Cause I've worked in car dealerships, IT, not for profits, airplane parts suppliers, call centers, you name it. Health coverage benefits have been part of the package in each position.

I don't mind a good anti-auto argument, when its logical and well reasoned. This one isn't. Its one of those things people who cling to ideology in the face of reality say. Reality is that health care benefits of some type are a part of a living wage for the majority of Americans with a full time job. When you can speak intelligently about trade inequities between the dometics and imports, when you can talk about the tax subsidies that Alabama and Tennesse provide for the imports, you might have a clue. Its all well and good for someone on an internet message board to be like "well, quit paying the healthcare costs", but if you understood anything about it you'd know that they are paying far less for new hires, they are paying far less now for retirees. What you don't understand is that the automakers made these committments when the cost of healthcare was very, very low and a legion of a workforce built thier retirement plans around it. Legacy costs for GM retirees are huge, but the tide is already turning.

The union has made enormous concessions, and they will make more. I don't like the UAW. UAW workers were insanely overpaid for years, the union had absurd work rules and no flexibility and an assine sense of entitlement. I think they've had a big hand in driving the industry into the groud, but neither do I throw the baby out with the bathwater. Like working in a safe environment? Thank an union. Like your 5 day work week? You have dudes on the picket lines in the 40s and 50s to thank for that. Most of our expections today about a fair and equitable work week and working conditions were built by unions. I'm just not sure a union has a place in today's workplace where the government does a good, fair job of establishing workplace safety and regulation.

One argument I am sick of hearing is people who refer to Toyota and Honda as the "new American auto industry". If the design and engineering is foreign, if the highest management is foreign, if the intellectual property and knowledge and ingenuity of the vehicle are all foreign, its a foreign car, just assembled by American hands.

 

[dvcgirl]

Really? What industries don't provide healthcare to full time employees across the board? Cause I've worked in car dealerships, IT, not for profits, airplane parts suppliers, call centers, you name it. Health coverage benefits have been part of the package in each position.

When you can speak intelligely about trade inequities between the dometics and imports, when you can talk about the tax subsidies that Alabama and Tennesse provide for the imports, you might have a clue. Its all well and good for someone on an internet message board to be like "well, quit paying the healthcare costs", but if you understood anything about it you'd know that they are paying far less for new hires, they are paying far less now for retirees. What you don't understand is that the automakers made these committments when the cost of healthcare was very, very low and a legion of a workforce built thier retirement plans around it. Legacy costs for GM retirees are huge, but the tide is already turning.

The union has made enormous concessions, and they will make more. I don't like the UAW. UAW workers were insanely overpaid for years, the union had absurd work rules and no flexibility and an assine sense of entitlement. I think they've had a big hand in driving the industry into the groud, but neither do I throw the baby out with the bathwater. Like working in a safe environment? Thank an union. Like your 5 day work week? You have dudes on the picket lines in the 40s and 50s to thank for that. Most of our expections today about a fair and equitable work week and working conditions were built by unions. I'm just not sure a union has a place in today's workplace where the government does a good, fair job of establishing workplace safety and regulation.

One argument I am sick of hearing is people who refer to Toyota and Honda as the "new American auto industry". If the design and engineering is foreign, if the highest management is foreign, if the intellectual property and knowledge and ingenuity of the vehicle are all foreign, its a foreign car, just assembled by American hands.

Well, you are absolutely correct in every way. Unions aren't *all* bad, but like you say....they are responsible in some part for the demise of the Big Three. I know that new hires aren't getting nearly what the retirees got, and while "the tide is turning", I think that it may be too little too late. The Big Three were in a weakened state when two *major* crises struck.....$4.00+ gas price and then the complete implosion of the credit markets. Without huge loans from the US Taxpayers, Chrysler and GM would already be done.....and Ford wouldn't be far behind them. They're only hanging in there because they took on a huge line of credit before the bottom fell out.

As for health benefits. Yes, they have traditionally been a part of a full-time employment package. We've always had them through DH's job (he's a software architect), but I will say that with each passing year we're paying more for it and receiving less coverage. So it's tough to hear the UAW and auto workers whine about that.....welcome to the real world.

And I do agree that this "new American auto industry" stuff is BS. Larry Kudlow drones on about that kind of stuff. On the other hand, we are hearing an awful lot about the zillions of jobs that will be lost if one of the Big Three go under.....and while the profits for Honda and Toyota don't stay here, they are indeed providing a lot of jobs.

 

[luvmy3]

Really? What industries don't provide healthcare to full time employees across the board? Cause I've worked in car dealerships, IT, not for profits, airplane parts suppliers, call centers, you name it. Health coverage benefits have been part of the package in each position.

I don't mind a good anti-auto argument, when its logical and well reasoned. This one isn't. Its one of those things people who cling to ideology in the face of reality say. Reality is that health care benefits of some type are a part of a living wage for the majority of Americans with a full time job. When you can speak intelligently about trade inequities between the dometics and imports, when you can talk about the tax subsidies that Alabama and Tennesse provide for the imports, you might have a clue. Its all well and good for someone on an internet message board to be like "well, quit paying the healthcare costs", but if you understood anything about it you'd know that they are paying far less for new hires, they are paying far less now for retirees. What you don't understand is that the automakers made these committments when the cost of healthcare was very, very low and a legion of a workforce built thier retirement plans around it. Legacy costs for GM retirees are huge, but the tide is already turning.

I think you misunderstood, I never said that companies do not provide their employees with healthcare coverage
I am talking to a poster who believes that the problem with GM is that they have to pay 100% of their employees healthcare because the gov't doesn't subsidize it. The gov't doesn't subsidize my dh's healtcare costs, the company pays for some and WE pay for the rest. I don't know of any company who pays 100% of anyone's healthcare anymore, and I certainly don't know anyone whose company pays for some and the gov't subsidizes the rest, leaving the employee with no worries. Please fill me in on the ones that do because I would love to get a job with them to save myself the insurance premium every month.

 

[luvmy3]

BTW, to the person who refuses to feel guilty for the Honda in thier driveway: please don't feel guilty. You buying that Honda has done more to position GM for future sucess. If they didn't have to start competing over the last decade, they'd be more screwed than they already are. But if you are refusing to look at domestic cars in the future becasue of hearsay from your neighbors...that's another story. Ford has amazing quality these days, so does GM. Chrysler, oth, is crap.

I guess you missed that I also have a Ford sitting in my driveway with a host of problems, very expensive problems I might add. So no I'm not just taking my friends word, or a neighbors or someone else I don't even know. I don't need to talk to anyone to know that the Honda in my driveway is a far better car than the Ford thats in there too. I also didn't say I wasn't going to ever look at any domestic cars because of it, they will just be on the list after Honda or Toyota.

 

[mafibisha]

I do understand.....no sarcasm necessary. I also understand that we are now living in a global economy and so we'd better get used to it. .

Its been a global economy for quite sometime now

But we don't have to hand over our country to them on a silver platter by buying foreign made cars at the expense of our own American industry! I truly just don't get it. We live in America. You know, ya don't need an MBA b/c its really simple: We need our industry to be strong, NOT other foreign countries, to keep our economy and our military strong, and everything else in between.

There's no reason why America couldn't once again become a strong industrialized nation by buying American. We'll likely never again be a super power, however!

Those who think foreign cars are so great, and their purchase means more than the loss of millions of jobs and a huge collapse of our society, then go live in Japan or Korea!

One argument I am sick of hearing is people who refer to Toyota and Honda as the "new American auto industry". If the design and engineering is foreign, if the highest management is foreign, if the intellectual property and knowledge and ingenuity of the vehicle are all foreign, its a foreign car, just assembled by American hands.

ITA

 

[fussymonkey]

I think you misunderstood, I never said that companies do not provide their employees with healthcare coverage
I am talking to a poster who believes that the problem with GM is that they have to pay 100% of their employees healthcare because the gov't doesn't subsidize it. The gov't doesn't subsidize my dh's healtcare costs, the company pays for some and WE pay for the rest. I don't know of any company who pays 100% of anyone's healthcare anymore, and I certainly don't know anyone whose company pays for some and the gov't subsidizes the rest, leaving the employee with no worries. Please fill me in on the ones that do because I would love to get a job with them to save myself the insurance premium every month.

Yep, I misunderstood you, sorry - but I think you also misunderstood the poster. She (he?) was making the point that GM/Ford/Chrysler pay for healthcare benefits for 100% of thier workforce, not that they pay 100% of all costs. Autoworkers do have copays and premiums like everyone else. Her point is that while the domestics are responsible for healthcare benefits for thier whole workforce, imports only pay for those benefits for the small portion- I think 10%- of thier workforce that is located in the US. I don't think -and I don't know that I'm right, just speculating- that its accurate that the domestics pay for healthcare benes for 100% of thier workforce, they too have employees in many countries who are not receiving company-sponsored health benefits. That said, the point is still that the domestics are paying way for for health benefits, not only becuase thier contracts used to require an absurdly expensive benefit but also becuase such a large majority of thier workers are here in the US.

 

[luvmy3]

Yep, I misunderstood you, sorry - but I think you also misunderstood the poster. She (he?) was making the point that GM/Ford/Chrysler pay for healthcare benefits for 100% of thier workforce, not that they pay 100% of all costs. Autoworkers do have copays and premiums like everyone else. Her point is that while the domestics are responsible for healthcare benefits for thier whole workforce, imports only pay for those benefits for the small portion- I think 10%- of thier workforce that is located in the US. I don't think -and I don't know that I'm right, just speculating- that its accurate that the domestics pay for healthcare benes for 100% of thier workforce, they too have employees in many countries who are not receiving company-sponsored health benefits. That said, the point is still that the domestics are paying way for for health benefits, not only becuase thier contracts used to require an absurdly expensive benefit but also becuase such a large majority of thier workers are here in the US.

Yes, I think I may have misunderstood as well.

 

[luvmy3]

Its been a global economy for quite sometime now

But we don't have to hand over our country to them on a silver platter by buying foreign made cars at the expense of our own American industry! I truly just don't get it. We live in America. You know, ya don't need an MBA b/c its really simple: We need our industry to be strong, NOT other foreign countries, to keep our economy and our military strong, and everything else in between.

There's no reason why America couldn't once again become a strong industrialized nation by buying American. We'll likely never again be a super power, however!

Those who think foreign cars are so great, and their purchase means more than the loss of millions of jobs and a huge collapse of our society, then go live in Japan or Korea!

Why should we move, we live in America and have every right to purchase a foreign made product here and by doing so we still support American workers. Are you saying that those workers jobs aren't as important as any other Americans just because they happen to work for a foreign company?

 

[wright1baby]

I'm not sure where to start...
First in the interest of full disclosure, my husband has worked at Toyota Motors in Georgetown, KY for 14 years. We both drive Camrys built in Georgetown, KY USA. I understand your argument over where the profits go. As far as I am considered the profit my husband brings home bi-weekly for the last 14 years is good enough to take care of our family and support local industries.
These are the FACTS about our insurance--I am looking at my DH paycheck to make sure I get it all right. I am not sure where the 10% coverage comes from??
Up until this year Toyota paid 100% of our premiums, we had $10 copays for Dr. visits. This year, due to the economy, we now pay $10 bi-weekly insurance premiums (medical, dental, eye, and mental health).
These however do not qualify for IMPORTS--the come from KY, USA.
Oh...and by the way, Toyota DOES offer their team members pensions and 401K options.
My husband works hard to make a living and has no intention of being the demise of the US economy--just make a living.