Where the jobs are?

[Mkrop]

I think it's sad that they are knocked out due to lacking minor skills that can be taught in an afternoon. Not saying you should teach them (they should get a book from the library and learn these skills). Just saying that the intern who knows Excel will not have the people skills and wisdom of a 45 year old, but the 45 year old can be caught up with the intern in a few days.

It is indeed embarrassing. How do you think that 40 year old feels? They can find or afford a class to update their experiences, but know if a company would take 2 small weeks to train, they would be AWESOME. That young intern will be gone in a flash as soon as greener pastures present themselves, but that 40 -60 year old will give you their all for as long as you will have them. The last job I was laid off from, hired someone else to do a job they told me I was "Just not quite qualified for". I said, "well train me, I catch on quick and I already know half the system" Nope, they hired someone. 6 months later, that VERY SAME position, was posted on a job board. The person they hired who was more qualified, quit because she was bored. All they had to do was train me for a week, and I'd still be there.

I totally agree with this, you would probably have a more dedicated employee if you gave then a chance and took some time to train them. They wont be company hopping like so many of my younger brother's friends like to do. If they have been unemployed at this age, they dont want to be there again if they can help it.

I can see this bias happening when I try to reenter after being a SAHM mom. I have been doing lots of volunteer work at the school, even learning Power Point for the first time this summer to work on a project for the principal, but hey I guess running a household, taking care of kids, and volunteering in various positions will most likely work against me with employers discriminating like that when my work ethic would probably run circles around some of the younger people.

 

[WDWBarb]

I totally agree with this, you would probably have a more dedicated employee if you gave then a chance and took some time to train them. They wont be company hopping like so many of my younger brother's friends like to do. If they have been unemployed at this age, they dont want to be there again if they can help it.

I can see this bias happening when I try to reenter after being a SAHM mom. I have been doing lots of volunteer work at the school, even learning Power Point for the first time this summer to work on a project for the principal, but hey I guess running a household, taking care of kids, and volunteering in various positions will most likely work against me with employers discriminating like that when my work ethic would probably run circles around some of the younger people.

I consider being a SAHM solid experience on a resume. If you can handle the stress of a household and kids, that's solid experience for the positions I hire for. However, it's hard to consider when it's the only experience. I do have to have all new hires comfortable with using various software packages, especially Excel. It's the most powerful and complex of the basic MS Office apps and it takes quite some time to train people on it. We use it for many reports and Excel experience is invaluable.

I will and do train new hires on what they need to know to be successful on the job and I may be unique in that I hire people mostly for what I see in their eyes. Resumes are what get the interview, but enthusiasm and intelligence get the job.

 

[Mkrop]

I consider being a SAHM solid experience on a resume. If you can handle the stress of a household and kids, that's solid experience for the positions I hire for. However, it's hard to consider when it's the only experience. I do have to have all new hires comfortable with using various software packages, especially Excel. It's the most powerful and complex of the basic MS Office apps and it takes quite some time to train people on it. We use it for many reports and Excel experience is invaluable.

I will and do train new hires on what they need to know to be successful on the job and I may be unique in that I hire people mostly for what I see in their eyes. Resumes are what get the interview, but enthusiasm and intelligence get the job.

that refreshing to hear! Usually I hear the opposite!

I used Excel in my prior job before SAHM (acctg) so although some things have changed when I have used it currently or helped one of the kids, the basics are there.

 

[Andtototoo]

My perspective: I'm in a white-collar role where we hire fairly consistently for financial services, communications and IT positions. I see a lot of resumes from 40-60 year olds with the following common themes:

- 2+ years of unemployment with no attempt made to describe whatever good things the person has been doing during that time. Put down your volunteer experiences, board memberships, any kind of independent consulting, show me you have energy, show me you've been keeping yourself sharp somehow ... it is really hard for me to see resumes that left off in 2009 and show nothing since.

My perspective: I have been involved in hiring decisions for 20+ years in several different fields from academic to retail to non-profits. At NO time in any of those 20 years has ANYONE involved in a hiring decision other than myself given ANY credit for volunteer activities or board memberships or even, independent consulting. An incident that sticks out in my mind because it was so egregious was sitting on a hiring committee for a faith-based non-profit service organization seeking to fill a volunteer coordinator position. Everyone else was a pastor besides me. Everyone else immediately threw out any application that was not filled with 10+ more years of paid employment. Didn't matter what the paid employment was -- whatever it was, it was more important and "valuable" than volunteer activities. We had one candidate in particular who was seeking to re-enter the workforce after 15 years of being what I'd called a "full-time volunteer". Her experiences and references were stellar and yet she was considered, "unemployable" by a bunch of pastors seeking a volunteer coordinator because, "If she wasn't good enough to be paid, she's not good enough for us to pay either."

And then there's the small problem of losing a well-paying job and needing to take 2-3 crap jobs in order to pay the bills. Crap jobs which usually assign you random hours and insist on constant availability, rendering volunteering, board work and consulting impossible. I was talking to a cashier at Walmart the other day and she is a laid-off teacher who is working three minimum wage jobs to pay her bills. And in order to get those jobs, she had to DOWNPLAY her education and experience. It just sucks.

 

[gina2000]

Times are tough and with all the uncertainty of new regulations coming down the pike, finding a job wouldn't be easy. I have seen Gerri Willis mention a few times on her show about ideas on where the jobs are though. One of her writings I recall ~

"Thousands of Workers Needed!"

excerpt:



Read more: http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/w.../10/13/thousands-workers-needed#ixzz1ef1Smdso

You know, Gerri Willis may be a business guru but what she hasn't examined are the amount of jobs that are posted and never hired. I can't tell you the number of jobs my husband applied for that he did not get and was totally qualified for. And guess what? No one else did either because the job reappears on the employment rolls every 3-6 months with regularity...sometimes stretching into years. My husband laughs....firms interview and then don't hire on a regular basis. The job goes unfilled not because there is no one qualified to fill the position but because the corporation is unwilling to commit. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing...and all of a sudden a job is pulled due to uncertainty.

My husband is recently employed after a 2+ year job search. He's an experienced project manager with years of pharma experience and extensive computer skills. Guess what? The only reason he is working is because the firm committed to the employment agency and felt that they should honor the committment. They wanted to pull the job and leave it unfilled but decided not to. How long will it last? Based on what his manager told him...who knows? How many jobs in middle management are posted that are never filled? A lot. My husband just happened to get enormously lucky....for the moment.

 

[shalom]

I'm finding this thread interesting because it's so reminding me of the 1980's. I was in Denver and it was pretty dismal, but even nationally the unemployment rate was 9.7 in 1982 and 9.6 in 1983, when I was 22 and 23 respectively (nationally things improved faster than they did in the west). I particularly remember a news article that started out with all these people in their twenties lounging around in a hot tub lamenting the condition of the job market, so the author could complain about how "kids these days don't know what real work is" and the like.

Then there was the minister in Texas, reporting that some guy who'd been living in his car with his family in a shanty town under a bridge eventually committed suicide because he felt his family would be better off without him. So the "just get a job-vs-people would work if you let them" debate is the same. And I also heard the "only entry level/temp jobs or highly technical jobs available" thing, where people lamented the missing middle.

I knew a lot of people with college degrees who couldn't make use of that degree in getting a job, but the people who kept working at any job they could find ended up doing pretty well in the long run. A fair percentage of them went back to school, but this time they didn't go to college but rather got certified in something -- secretarial school, accounting, computers, electronics -- and moved on in a different direction. The one who went to secretarial school became a stock broker a few years later; I think people succeeded as much because they could switch gears easily as anything.

People also moved to where the jobs are, although I'd say they were in the minority (when I got the 20-year reunion book, I was shocked at how many people I graduated from high school with are still in the Denver area or in Colorado -- half the people I kept in touch with from then are in another state or even another country, but apparently the grand majority stayed put).

Hubby's brother-in-law, OTOH, not only stayed put in his home state (Illinois) but insists on identifying with a job that he's not worked at more than three months a year for over a decade. He worked steadily there a couple of years to start with, but has never gotten the seniority to hang onto the job in "down times," however in his mind that's "his job", and, even when he's gotten another job in the interim (which he usually hasn't), all they have to do is call and tell him there's an opening and he bails on the other job and goes back to that one, only to work for three months and get laid off again.

BIL points to the fact that the biggest manufacturer in the area nearly went into bankruptcy in the 1980s and then responded to local strikes by shifting a good deal of its manufacturing out of state, using that to justify his usually-unemployed state, but everyone else we know there, including hubby's brother who was in the Union that gave up on the strike (who quit that job and won't work for that company because he felt the union shouldn't have agreed to go back to work without a contract) has worked pretty much the whole time. Hubby's sister supports BIL's family, and what's killer is that BIL scoffs at her job because it's unskilled (she just has a high school diploma), and she doesn't make as much per hour as he does at the job he loves. But she works all year, while BIL only works three months or so, meaning she brings in more than he does.

The world has moved on, but BIL's still looking back to a lost golden age. He's an extreme example, but I know other people who lost their jobs but still identify themselves with that past instead of finding a new career. Working a job to survive may be necessary, but if it kills someone's dreams and they don't find new ones, then they never get past surviving, even when those around them recover. Flexibility is the key to surviving hard times, but it's even more important when it comes to being able to move on and thrive.

I think it's sad that they are knocked out due to lacking minor skills that can be taught in an afternoon. Not saying you should teach them (they should get a book from the library and learn these skills).

You don't have to get a book from the library and learn computer skills; our library offers free classes in computing with hands-on experience, as do various charitable organizations. Hubby volunteered with the local Free Geek group for years and still donates computers there; they offer classes and even (somewhat dated) free computers. We live in is a smallish city and in my experience bigger cities have even more resources (Free Geek is based in Portland, OR, for instance).

 

[arminnie]

My perspective: I'm in a white-collar role where we hire fairly consistently for financial services, communications and IT positions. I see a lot of resumes from 40-60 year olds with the following common themes:

- 2+ years of unemployment with no attempt made to describe whatever good things the person has been doing during that time. Put down your volunteer experiences, board memberships, any kind of independent consulting, show me you have energy, show me you've been keeping yourself sharp somehow ... it is really hard for me to see resumes that left off in 2009 and show nothing since.

- Qualitatively well-described experience but no numbers on the resumes. Lots of "exceeded expectations," watery descriptions - I want to see documented results.

- Clear discomfort with technology: the sense that computers have passed them by. Strange resume formatting, obvious errors like all-capitalized emails, and then in phone screens, no skills in Excel/Powerpoint/Access, no experience using Outlook, and no familiarity with common software utilized in their field. It's a terrible thing to say, but hiring managers consistently report that it puts them at a clear disadvantage against younger people. No one wants to spend two weeks showing the new guy how to add in Excel and reply to all, while the intern sitting next to him is running technological circles around him. There is a sense that it's embarrassing for all involved.

I agree with you. I am 65 so am even older than that group you are referencing. I am shocked at how many people much younger than I am cannot even use an ATM or slide a credit card at a sales terminal.

I spent my career in financial/IT industries. Even when I was holding down a major job that required a lot of international travel I was always involved with boards and foundations. I haven't "worked" in decade - but I have many accomplishments to list for this time period. I've also made a lot of new contacts. My senator will take me to dinner when I am in Washington. And no I haven't given him big money.

I came from extremely modest means so I have always made helping others a part of my life in addition to work and family. I didn't plan it this way - but those that I have helped are often in a position to help me later in life.

 

[shalom]

I didn't plan it this way - but those that I have helped are often in a position to help me later in life.

Lot of truth there. I don't think people have to network as aggressively as you have for it to be a benefit. In the 1980s, my dad's company laid off a bunch of middle managers in this big reorganization move, and intended to lay off my dad, but one of the Vice Presidents heard about it, stepped in and said, "Not that guy." Dad still lost his job, but not his employment -- they shifted him internally to another management position for almost year while the reorganization proceeded.

Personally, I think they deliberately picked a management job entirely outside of dad's expertise, because it demanded a totally different mindset (they put him over a group that thought very differently than he did and he had to totally readjust his expectations and learn new management techniques because it was clear early on they weren't going to respond to his usual approach), so the fact that someone stood up for him only helped so much, but OTOH my dad's skills were stretched and he did a good job outside their expectations. So, when they finally gave him a job that was a better fit, they put him in charge of redesigning their whole customer service department -- dad's customer service system while dad was managing it made Consumer Reports national top 10.

He also volunteered then and now and has kept active that way since retiring. He has not, however, developed very advanced computer skills. When they got a computer, my mom absolutely refused to touch it for two years, because she knew if she did, he'd be calling her in to fix stuff and tell him how to do whatever all the time. Which is exactly what he started doing once she finally gave in and started using a computer ("Hey, could you come down and figure out why the printer's not printing?"), but by that point he at least had the basics down.

Mom, OTOH, now builds her own computers. She's 74.

 

[mamacatnv]

Then there are the corporations that have job postings with no intent of hiring anyone. They want the remaining employees to feel "safe" and to think that the company is healthy, stable and not intending to downsize.

My DH worked for a company that did just this, they kept telling their engineering dept. they were "fine" they pointed to the numerous postings they had. Then one day, bam, they laid off 300+ engineers, nearly 30% of their entire workforce. They gutted entire depts that the company had outsourced to China but they still had a ton of postings for all those depts.

 

[PaulaSB12]

In the Uk many jobs have been taken by agency workers, this is going to change now as there has been a law change. If an agency worker has been employed by a firm for 13 weeks they are entitled to the same wage as permanent workers. I know where I work many of the agency workers have now got permanent jobs now.

 

[Caradana]

I do have to have all new hires comfortable with using various software packages, especially Excel. It's the most powerful and complex of the basic MS Office apps and it takes quite some time to train people on it. We use it for many reports and Excel experience is invaluable.

Agreed - same. Excel skills are pretty ubiquitous these days in white collar roles, and it takes way longer than an afternoon to learn it well.

 

[arminnie]

I have to admit that I do have a leg up on most people my age with respect to computer skills.

I wrote operating systems in assembler language when the IBM 360 first came out (decades and decades ago) so I can usually figure out how to do most stuff. I did that before I went back to school to get my MBA.

I am not an expert in Excel, but a lot of people think I am because I can usually figure out how to do just about anything if I take 10-15 minutes.

I am a firm believer though in taking ANY job when you need one. I lost my job when the oil industry crashed in the 80s. I went from a very high powered executive job to just about entry level (2/3 pay cut).

But that entry level job led to a fabulous job and an international reputation in my new field. I basically started over at almost 40,

 

[LIDisneyFan]

If you are realy looking for a job they can be found-but you need to be creative. That means leaning basic computer skills (if you do not know Word, Excel and Powerpoint you put yourself at a big disadvantage for any white collar job).

Network. That is how you get real jobs. Do you keep up with former co-workers? Attend any event where they will be? Online postings really don't hit the mark-there are too many people applying for the same job. Dig back in your mind and reach out to as many people as you can. Yes-tell them you are looking for work-they can often do a better job of selling you (escpecially if you are not a perfect fit).

Are you willing to relocate? I know I did, and many other have as well. You find the job and you go. My company hires college grads and pays VERY well for new hires. BUT many of the offers get turned down because we need them to relo and they don't want to leave their friends, girlfriend, or Mommy and Daddy.

Are you willing to start lower and work your way up? Can you convince a hiring manager that they should hire you if you are overqualified? It can be done (I am proof), but you need to present the right story.

Are you willing to work off-shift hours? weekends? travel?

White collar jobs-do you look office/client presentable? Normal colored hair? NO piercings or visible tattoos? Yes, I know they are your personal choice-but guess what-I will hire someone who looks office presentable over slightly more qualified person who doesn't fit the job - and it has nothing to do with race or anything else.

Most people who can't find a job have 'limitations' which prevent them. not all - by any means. But there are jobs out there -but your need to make looking for a job your job.

 

[thomas998]

There are jobs out there... but often people don't have the skills or experience to get them... or in other cases the people don't want to take a job that they consider beneath them. Or in other cases the skills they have and the job that they could get exist in other parts of the country and they are unwilling to move...

The reality for a lot of people is that the jobs they once relied on no longer exist. Economist that loved to preach free trade made the same glaring mistake. They looked at people as a commodity that could easily be moved from doing job A to job B when their free trade eliminated the manufacturing jobs in the US... sadly it doesn't work that way. Someone that is in their 50's and has only had experience working on an assembly line is going to have a hard time finding another job that pays the same as the one they had relied on before. Even if that person is willing to do any job they can get, it will very likely pay much less than they had before and will require significant sacrifices in lifestyle. Those things are never considered by economists when they preach free trade, they don't care or worry about the human consequences.

 

[kt_mom]

The company I was working for previously laid 3 of us off the first week of September. We have all found new jobs with the last one of us just starting her job this week.

One of the guys that I worked with there has been job hunting for about 6 months or so because he knew it was time to move on from that company. He had several offers in the last few weeks and has accepted one that he starts in a few weeks. He will be moving his family about 12 hours away. He was looking all over the country, not just in our area. We also had three other engineers leave in the last year that found other jobs in our area.

 

[BadgerGirl84]

There are lots of jobs to be found where I live--Madison, WI.

My previous employer, a healthcare software company hires tons of college grads with little to no job experience. Good grades are the main requirement.

My husband and I both work for an insurance company and our current company is hiring lots, too. PM me if you are in the project management field!

 

[BadgerGirl84]

If you are realy looking for a job they can be found-but you need to be creative. That means leaning basic computer skills (if you do not know Word, Excel and Powerpoint you put yourself at a big disadvantage for any white collar job).

Network. That is how you get real jobs. Do you keep up with former co-workers? Attend any event where they will be? Online postings really don't hit the mark-there are too many people applying for the same job. Dig back in your mind and reach out to as many people as you can. Yes-tell them you are looking for work-they can often do a better job of selling you (escpecially if you are not a perfect fit).

Are you willing to relocate? I know I did, and many other have as well. You find the job and you go. My company hires college grads and pays VERY well for new hires. BUT many of the offers get turned down because we need them to relo and they don't want to leave their friends, girlfriend, or Mommy and Daddy.

Are you willing to start lower and work your way up? Can you convince a hiring manager that they should hire you if you are overqualified? It can be done (I am proof), but you need to present the right story.

Are you willing to work off-shift hours? weekends? travel?

White collar jobs-do you look office/client presentable? Normal colored hair? NO piercings or visible tattoos? Yes, I know they are your personal choice-but guess what-I will hire someone who looks office presentable over slightly more qualified person who doesn't fit the job - and it has nothing to do with race or anything else.

Most people who can't find a job have 'limitations' which prevent them. not all - by any means. But there are jobs out there -but your need to make looking for a job your job.

 

[collegejunkie]

i don't know anything about the actual job market where i live (long island), but i will say that every student in my class (graduating this year) who was looking for a job now has one to start once we finish up in may. i keep getting job offers from companies and government agencies even though i never applied for them (i want to go to medical school). there are definitely places hiring.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

You think if they have been searching for work in their field for 2 years they are going to have board memberships and independent consulting to put down? I knew so many professionals in IT who lost their jobs in 2001 and most of them had to hold down 2-4 low paying jobs (one was a Wal Mart greeter, worked seasonally for H&R block and did one other low paying job) to keep a roof over their heads. They were busy trying to feed and house and clothe their family not volunteering. They struggled when reapply in their field as their "gap" consisted of irrelevant and useless experience and jobs like "Walmart greeter" so what does that do for them to put that down on their resume?

It's kind of a vicious cycle for some that lose their jobs as people discard them because they lack of "board memberships" and independent consulting jobs because they spent their time trying to provide in any way possible for their family.

My take on what she meant...

If the applicant was doing absolutely nothing aside from job hunting and getting rejected, at some point the applicant might have considered something as the gap between when the job was lost and present day grew. At some point, we have to realize that sometimes constantly looking for a job isn't enough.

I'm not saying it isn't easy--but the gap and the dead space just doesn't look favorable as it grows.

Walmart greeter would look better than a 2 year gap.

Spending time learning new skills--even looking for FREE ways to learn those skills while working as a Walmart greeter would help to fill in that gap. Why wait until you show up on the job to learn Excel?

My dad is a consultant...he floats from contract to contract. When he can't find a long term contract, he networks to try to find a short term project to bide his time until a bigger gig comes along. If he held out for "real" work and let the gap on his resume grow, he would decrease his chances that he will land a more lucrative deal.

When my DH was laid off, several of the guys went and found short term projects to keep things going and not create a gap.

Doesn't work for everyone--but nothing wrong with Caradana seeking out applicants who have done something during a gap other than field rejections and then expect to be trained on the job for something that takes longer than an afternoon to master.

 

[descovy]

I don't think that's the problem as much as there's lots of lower paying jobs available but people can't afford to live with them, because of rent or a car payment or gasoline to get to work.

Or they're overqualified and don't get hired because of it (which is amazing to me)

To add to that, I work at Target. I tried to get my unemployed neighbor a job there. HR didn't want to hire her because she was likely to jump-ship once she got a "real job" in her career field. They relented and did hire her. Trained her and 2 days she got a job offer and quit. So yeah, I helped prove HR's point

Add to that, I work with good employees, who have open availability for shifts, who are good at their jobs. They work hard for such meager income that many of them are still on food stamps. Come January everone's hours get cut. Try paying your bills when that happens. So working retail isn't the answer either.

I read stories that Alabama got tough with immigration policy and now there are crops in the field that aren't being picked. Mexicans/central americans are afraid to go pick there, and the unemplyed Americans living there refuse to do the work. It's hard, It's backbreaking, and even at $10/hr people refuse to do it. Realize, we have educated ourselves to the point that we tell ourselves we are TOO GOOD for manual labor. Where are the jobs? We're not talking any jobs! We're talking white-color-signing-bonus-jobs. You know, the kind that make momma proud after she paid for your 4 year college education. No one wants to pay off student loans with MANUAL LABOR!

In Williston, ND (the oil fracking boom) what an eye opener for my family. My grandmother's family homesteaded there in the late 1800's. They lived a hard life scraping a meager living wheat farming. My dad & his brothers were sent as free farm hands when they graduated hs in the 60's waiting to be drafted. I used to go on family reunions there in the 80's-90's. These folks worked so dang hard for so little $$ all their lives... never realizing a virtual gold-mine lay under their feet. They're long dead now, and I'm sure someone somewhere is getting high-hog rich off their land... if they only knew!

But yeah, Williston is not equipped to handle this mass influx of people. Hardees hamburgers may be hiring a fry cook for $15/hr, but there is NO PLACE TO LIVE. And winter is BRUTAL out there. Seriously, no one needs to be sleeping in their truck/RV with a nasty winter ahead.

Just wanted to add, that it isn't easy to say "go get a job."