The 'Planning Backlash'

[Lisa loves Pooh]

But to make this "apples to apples", you are already in NYC, and going to a show is just one of the things you are going to do when you are there. If A&E is just one thing to do once you've already paid to get to Florida, why isn't going to a show just one thing to do once you've already paid to go to NY?


There is nothing "convenient" about a three hour line. Let's not kid ourselves here. If a secondary market existed to sell spots to see A&E, it would be the hottest commodity on this board.

Ummm--because once I am there, I don't know a single theater that let's me walk in without paying MORE.

Anna and Elsa was a 3 hour wait when?

What's the line for the TKTS booth Thanksgiving week?

 

[nugov2]

That was not my premise at all if you look at what Jimmy and. I were discussing.

When comparing to a ticket to a show in NYC--there is cost associated with getting there and that was the point. He tried to claim that I still had to buy admission. I said, I am already there. There is no additional cost.

And also--Anna and Elsa remain available for standby. That fact is being conveniently ignored when compared to a show that can and does sell out or requires a lengthy line (depending on luck and timing) to get dicounted tickets.

If one can wait same day to buy tickets in a line--ignoring that the same can be done for A&E invalidates any claims suggested by the comparison in the first place.

But I am not surprised you were not able to understand that. It does not fit your paradigm.

So while on a vacation to Hawaii it will be no additional cost to go to the beach and surf(your families dream), but do you want to wait in a line for 4 hours to access it and then when you finally do you have very minimal time to enjoy the rest of what the beach offers after that 4 hour wait, when it is the only time you will get to be on the beach your entire trip? Do you want to have to make the decision between doing something everyone dreamed of doing once they got to Hawaii at the cost of wasting an entire day enjoying everything else the beach had to offer? Seems disappointing to a family that paid thousands of dollars to get to hawaii, but was forced to choose between one attraction that would cost the entire day or skipping something they dreamed of to enjoy the rest of the area. This is really only the case on a Disney vacation, it doesn't happen anywhere else and that is what makes the planning frustrating.

I don't think it is people have a problem planning, but it is the hoops you have to jump through while planning and the fact that the system is not at all user friendly with everything opening up at different times. I'd have less of a problem with FP+ if the times opened up at the same time as ADR's. Let me plan it all at once.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Your use of big words does not negate the fact that if Anna and Elsa are not available to you on a given day, you can easily scoot over to WDW and see them another day. Most WDW visitors are not so lucky. I don't really think it is fair to compare a local's experiences with an out of towner. Not really apples to apples is it?

As could a local to NYC.

Come on. Try harder. You can do this!

Our last vacation, we has several our of towners who we joined. And they....wait for it....met Anna and Elsa.

I guess standby is only open to Florida residents who can make it over for the day.

 

[redsbe]

For DH, DD and I traveling alone, no it isn't.

Add in my parents and my brother/SIL/nephews (1 of whom will be 1 month away from being 6, the other which will be 9 on our next trip), and things get more complicated.

My parents want to spend time with the boys and with DD, and want us all to spend time together.

My brother and SIL tend to split up, my brother taking the 9 y/o to some rides while the 6 y/o goes with SIL to other rides.

DD will only be 3 on the trip, and will *hopefully* be walking by then, but we don't know for sure. She's small for her age, so won't hit many height requirements,but she will ride a lot of the non-height requirement rides. DH and I also want to experience things with our nephews.

Under legacy, this type of trip actually went very smoothly. We'd pick FPs up together if we were all in a group at the time, or separately if we were separated. Those decisions weren't made until we were *in the parks*.

Now we have to decide how to use those FP+s.

Are we going to use them all for headliners/height restricted rides, since those have the longest lines?

If we do that, what do we do with DD's FP+? Do we book FP+ for her for those rides as well, and someone else uses her band in conjunction with RS and then the adult who has to stay behind and watch her gets to ride their RS ride with both nephews and another adult? (For ex, if I stayed behind, I'd then get to ride with DH and my 2 nephews - something I'd really like to do).

Doing that means that we're then doing SB (or trying for 4th FP+) for rides that she can join everyone on - so potentially longer waits than if we used FP+ - do we want to risk longer waits with a toddler? (She's pretty patient as toddlers go, so it would likely be OK)

Since Brother/SIL like to separate, are we all getting the same FP+? Or are we FP+ing different attractions? If we all FP+ different attractions, and DH and I want to ride with the boys as well, how do we make that happen? Do we book FP+s for DD for her rides, and then make at least 1FP+ for a parent/grandparent to go with her?

ETA: And what do we want to FP+, even for the nephews? Older nephew didn't like quite a few height requirement times last time....but he was 6. Do we FP+ something that he may not want to go on? Previously, he'd be *looking* at the attraction and he'd decide. There's a difference between being at the attraction and seeing it and making that decision and making it 2 months before arriving. On the same note...his now 6 y/o brother - will he be scared of the same things older nephew was at that age? Or, since he's more fearless in general, will he be more adventurous than his brother? Again, we'd better be able to gauge that *in the park* than 2 months before when they haven't seen Disney in 2.5 years and don't remember a lot of it.

When do we try to make those FP+ for? General wisdom here is to get them for the afternoon when it's busiest. The boys don't nap, so that could work, but frequently their parents will enforce a "down time" - especially for the youngest. I could see that happening.DD is fighting naps already at 2.5, so will she take naps there or not? last time we did stroller napping, and she was fine..don't know if she'll stroller nap this time. Likely we'll look for timing between 11-1, to make 4th FPs an option at least, but if for some reason things change when we get there, then we're at the mercy of how flexible the FP+ system is. We did not find it to be flexible when we tried to move things for just 3 adults in November 2014, and we're going over the same weekend (Wine and Dine 1/2 Marathon) in 2015, so I don't feel like it's smart to count on that flexibility.

Determining all of the above is going to, for MY family, require a lot more pre-planning of *park time* than we have ever done before. There's going to be at least 1 big sit down with all of the families, probably 2. I'm sure some will say "well, you always have to do that when traveling with a big group" - but, quite honestly, we did not have to have more than 1 planning discussion *pre-arrival* for our last trip.

I'm also quite sure there are those who thought about all of the above things before traveling with their extended families as well. For *us* we had a brief talk about expectations, I planned park days/ADRs, and beyond that any discussion of rides and what to do was done *in the parks*.

Bottom line is that, for *us*, anything that involves booking FP+ for this upcoming trip will require more pre-planning of *park time* than we have ever done before.

So do not even bother with FP+, they are not required or even necessary as you can stay with your typical large group planning you have done before. And you do not need FP+ to experience the rides and attractions, but as I suspect you have always need to do with a large family group, there will still be some advance planning involved.

 

[JimmyV]

1. By paying a premium to see a 2 hour show that costs MORE than a single day ticket to Disney. But costs doesn't matter--until it actually does for a proper comparison. I don't find value in waiting until the last minute to pay a legal scalper. Don't care how good the show is. I will plan better and buy my tickets earlier.

The prices for Broadway shows has gotten so high that the premium one pays to a ticket broker isn't all that much any more. The market can only take so much. Brokers provide a valuable service. And that service feeds directly into the original point of this discussion. So let's get this back on topic. You are on the side of "planning a trip to NYC is more complex than planning a trip to WDW". I live near NYC so I will stay out of this one. Piece of cake for me. Leaving that aside, you state above that in order to see the show of your choice and get the seat that you prefer, you will "plan better and buy my tickets earlier." And this feeds right into your point that planning a trip to NYC is more complex. It can be if you let it. Or, you can pay a premium and smooth out the path. Money cannot buy happiness. But it absolutely can buy convenience. While you can pay a premium to make getting a ticket to Kinky Boots a piece of cake, I cannot pay a premium to get fast access to A&E. So which trip is harder to plan?

2. The FP+ was temporary and a test.

Let's hope so. But typically, that which is tested is implemented.

 

[ArwenMarie]

I live near NYC
I dont understand why these tourists get so crazy about these Broadway shows!
I just calm down and pick a different day

 

[redsbe]

So while on a vacation to Hawaii it will be no additional cost to go to the beach and surf(your families dream), but do you want to wait in a line for 4 hours to access it and then when you finally do you have very minimal time to enjoy the rest of what the beach offers after that 4 hour wait, when it is the only time you will get to be on the beach your entire trip? Do you want to have to make the decision between doing something everyone dreamed of doing once they got to Hawaii at the cost of wasting an entire day enjoying everything else the beach had to offer? Seems disappointing to a family that paid thousands of dollars to get to hawaii, but was forced to choose between one attraction that would cost the entire day or skipping something they dreamed of to enjoy the rest of the area. This is really only the case on a Disney vacation, it doesn't happen anywhere else and that is what makes the planning frustrating.

I don't think it is people have a problem planning, but it is the hoops you have to jump through while planning and the fact that the system is not at all user friendly with everything opening up at different times. I'd have less of a problem with FP+ if the times opened up at the same time as ADR's. Let me plan it all at once.

I have seen lines for the most popular coasters at Cedar Point in excess of 3 hours, so yes there are plenty of trip and holiday experiences that involve long waits, additional travel times, and advanced planning. Ever attempted to simply walk up to a Broadway show and get a ticket day of? Or enter the Washington Monument? WDW is not the only holiday location that requires planning to avoid long waits or crowds.

 

[Texas Rob]

Our last trip was in May 2014, right after (I believe) they started the new FP system. The one thing that I personally did not enjoy (and this is my opinion) is feeling as though I had to be at a certain area of the park at a certain time if I didn't want to wait 2 hours (literally on some rides) in standby or whatever. I didn't feel overly compelled to complain about it to Disney or feel that I was slighted in any way, but if someone where to ask me about the cons of the new FP system that is my opinion based on our experiences. Now, that being said, we could probably do a much better job planning our next trip so that we don't feel so rushed to be somewhere. So it was the first time and I am not willing to throw the baby out with the bath water. I am hopeful the next experience will be much more enjoyable and that we can hit the FP's in order that we will visit the park. I am not a fan of running from one side of MK to the other to make a ride...just not my cup of tea.

 

[tim123]

I live near NYC
I dont understand why these tourists get so crazy about these Broadway shows!
I just calm down and pick a different day

Times Square turned Disneyfied years ago….Lion King me up the waszu.
Broadway is Disney….might as well shuffle on down to the swamp..its warmer and the people are friendlier!
I liked Times Square when I used to take the train in to see Led Zepplin or the Who…dicey, seedy, alive!…Its a big Disney store now with ho hum theater.

 

[JimmyV]

Ummm--because once I am there, I don't know a single theater that let's me walk in without paying MORE.

And here is where price discussion fails. All that really matters is the total cost of the trip. Not the individual components. One pays $700 to stay at the GF and $350 for their park pass and gets to see A&E for "free". One pays $500 to stay at the Marriott Marquis and has to pay $200 to see the Broadway show. What are we accomplishing with this?

Anna and Elsa was a 3 hour wait when?

Pretty much every day from the time that they premiered in the MK through the summer, and again during the holidays.

What's the line for the TKTS booth Thanksgiving week?

It can be three hours but typically is less. They don't start selling tickets until 4 hours before the show, so by definition, one cannot wait in a 4 hour line. And they have a "real time" app showing availability, so there is no need to get into a really long line if what you are looking for is not available.

 

[DisneyKidds]

I think you just did an excellent job of making the point for the opposing view. No one needs crowd calendars, recommended days, extra early hours, fast passes or blogs to go to Volcano National Park on Hawaii, to see the Mona Lisa, to view the Roman Forum or to view the Grand Canyon!

Along the lines of the TT equates to the Eiffel Tower, which it does in a way, I guess I'd say Volcano National Park is....Typhoon Lagoon!

They are both locations within your destination that you will plan to attend. You don't need all that 'stuff' to visit either TL or VNP, but you do need to evaluate that 'stuff' in WDW, and similar different 'stuff' in Hawaii, to chose when and how you will enjoy TL or VNP.

Again, TT and TL are steaming piles of poo compared to the Eiffel Tower and VNP, but as sites to plan for within your chosen destination, be it WDW, Paris, or Hawaii.....they a require some kind of planning, no?

I'm considering VNP. Do I drive myself or take a tour out of Hilo, is lava flowing, do I plan to be there around and past sunset, or do I visit during the day, walk, hike or, bike, what's the best way to get near the crater, hike a lava tube, etc., etc.???? There actual is a lot to plan if visiting VNP for a few hours to a half a day.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

So while on a vacation to Hawaii it will be no additional cost to go to the beach and surf(your families dream), but do you want to wait in a line for 4 hours to access it and then when you finally do you have very minimal time to enjoy the rest of what the beach offers after that 4 hour wait, when it is the only time you will get to be on the beach your entire trip? Do you want to have to make the decision between doing something everyone dreamed of doing once they got to Hawaii at the cost of wasting an entire day enjoying everything else the beach had to offer? Seems disappointing to a family that paid thousands of dollars to get to hawaii, but was forced to choose between one attraction that would cost the entire day or skipping something they dreamed of to enjoy the rest of the area. This is really only the case on a Disney vacation, it doesn't happen anywhere else and that is what makes the planning frustrating.

I don't think it is people have a problem planning, but it is the hoops you have to jump through while planning and the fact that the system is not at all user friendly with everything opening up at different times. I'd have less of a problem with FP+ if the times opened up at the same time as ADR's. Let me plan it all at once.

How many beaches are there on each island in Hawaii?

Comparisons work better when they are logical.

But--IF your example were reality, I would plan and decide accordingly.

And still waiting for proof of these 4 hour waits of Anna and Elsa. Consensus seems to been they are no longer a regular occurrence since moving to a location and casting enough friends.

Are we talking Christmas Day standby times?

And I think that while it *may* happen to a family who fails to plan and shows up surprised it is the busiest week of the year, it is not a standard practice the majority if the time. And those planning to go anywhere in the world during the busiest " tourist season" plan as they can around it or accept reality that they will cope.

Disney is really no different than other vacations in the grand scheme.

If one feels they have to jump through hoops for a Disney vacation, that is pretty was and I would probably choose to not go.

The Pope is coming to Philly next Septmber and hotels are already hard to come by. Once I heard the numbers of expected attendance, I just can it handle it and will choose to miss out. Folks will go in droves. But it gives me anxiety even thinking about that. He may also come to DC which I may consider as I am more familiar with the city and have a lot of local friends. So the planning is less but the crowd anxiety is there.

I think we can agree that that counts as a "once in a lifetime" event. And it is state side.

So no--we cannot agree that this only happens for a Disney Vacation.

I honestly cannot envision having that same planning anxiety for a trip to the mouse. And I do not see the same amount of hoops that you do. But I was not a micromanager prior to FP+.

My biggest concern is the battery life on my phone. So I take a picture of my fastpasses and shut of data and wi fi. I shall note we did similar for legacy so we didn't have to keep fishing them out to check.

 

[Texas Rob]

And still waiting for proof of these 4 hour waits of Anna and Elsa. Consensus seems to been they are no longer a regular occurrence since moving to a location and casting enough friends.

Are we talking Christmas Day standby times?

While we were there in May 2014, we did not receive a FP for Anna and Elsa...each time we went to Fantasyland to see them it was 180 minutes on the sign. This is hinged in my mind as my daughter, who was 7 on the trip, was dying to get their autograph and we didn't do it (her choice after she realized how long the wait would be).

 

[JimmyV]

I'm considering VNP. Do I drive myself or take a tour out of Hilo, is lava flowing, do I plan to be there around and past sunset, or do I visit during the day, walk, hike or, bike, what's the best way to get near the crater, hike a lava tube, etc., etc.???? There actual is a lot to plan if visiting VNP for a few hours to a half a day.

We booked a tour with Hawaii Forest and Trail. They pick up from Waikoloa, so it is almost door-to-door. A full day trip that tours much of the island, but the focus is VNP. Great guide and great local knowledge. Even though I am a do-it-myself traveler, I would do a private tour to VNP.
http://www.hawaii-forest.com/index.php/tours/kilauea_volcano

 

[tim123]

Again, TT and TL are steaming piles of poo compared to the Eiffel Tower

Hey now hold on a minute. I much prefer TT and especially Typhoon Lagoon to the Tower Eiffel!

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

And here is where price discussion fails. All that
really matters is the total cost of the trip. Not the individual components. One pays $700 to stay at the GF and $350 for their park pass and gets to see A&E for "free". One pays $500 to stay at the Marriott Marquis and has to pay $200 to see the Broadway show. What are we accomplishing with this?

Multi-day ticket for 10 hours a day of stuff compared to a 2 hour show.


(I fully concede that a show can be worth the money--but going with apples to apples on money versus time.)

Pretty much every day from the time that they premiered in the MK through the summer, and again during the holidays.

It can be three hours but typically is less. They don't start selling tickets until 4 hours before the show, so by definition, one cannot wait in a 4 hour line. And they have a "real time" app showing availability, so there is no need to get into a really long line if what you are looking for is not available.

So--ummm..okay...

Not up on my latest Broadway shows--so we will to with a show not playing anymore...

Rent was pretty popular, right? How easy was it to get tickets when it first opened ?

Are you proposing that Disney should permit resales of FP+ via a FP+ broker?

And the Anna and Elsa line remains open--and I haven't seen anyone complaining of 4 hour waits lately except to bring up the outdated wait time in an argument. When data has expired, one might consider a new talking point to rely upon.

Would you agree that people might be willing of wait 4 hours if a ticket was available? They wait days for a 57 cent computer at Best Buy. I fully believe that if given the opportunity, some folks would indeed wait all that time for a coveted Broadway show ticket.

But since they do sell out, there is no opportunity for you to prove that they wouldn't. So any postulating that you can get tickets if you are willing to pay for them through a legal scalper or wait in a line for discounted tickets is not really relevant.

 

[nugov2]

How many beaches are there on each island in Hawaii?

Comparisons work better when they are logical.

But--IF your example were reality, I would plan and decide accordingly.

And still waiting for proof of these 4 hour waits of Anna and Elsa. Consensus seems to been they are no longer a regular occurrence since moving to a location and casting enough friends.

Are we talking Christmas Day standby times?

And I think that while it *may* happen to a family who fails to plan and shows up surprised it is the busiest week of the year, it is not a standard practice the majority if the time. And those planning to go anywhere in the world during the busiest " tourist season" plan as they can around it or accept reality that they will cope.

Disney is really no different than other vacations in the grand scheme.

If one feels they have to jump through hoops for a Disney vacation, that is pretty was and I would probably choose to not go.

The Pope is coming to Philly next Septmber and hotels are already hard to come by. Once I heard the numbers of expected attendance, I just can it handle it and will choose to miss out. Folks will go in droves. But it gives me anxiety even thinking about that. He may also come to DC which I may consider as I am more familiar with the city and have a lot of local friends. So the planning is less but the crowd anxiety is there.

I think we can agree that that counts as a "once in a lifetime" event. And it is state side.

So no--we cannot agree that this only happens for a Disney Vacation.

I honestly cannot envision having that same planning anxiety for a trip to the mouse. And I do not see the same amount of hoops that you do. But I was not a micromanager prior to FP+.

My biggest concern is the battery life on my phone. So I take a picture of my fastpasses and shut of data and wi fi. I shall note we did similar for legacy so we didn't have to keep fishing them out to check.

There are beaches famous for surfing and on certain islands there is one famous beach, so it is logical. 4 hours has been posted many times(and not just on holidays) and they have also blocked SB completely without announcing it prior(seems pretty unfair to me), but even your example of 3 hours is a long time to waste if you only have one park day. On an 8 hour day that is a significant part of your day and parents with small children probably don't average much more than that in a park.

I'm not sure why it is petty to think that planning reservations at 180, while others open at others dates and then fp at 60 days is jumping through hoops, but you are certainly entitled to think that way.

You are not going to see the pope because it is not mentally possible for you, not because you are paying for it and then have to choose between waiting many hours in line to hear him speak or not seeing him at all to do something else equally important during this event(maybe see the other vatican officials speak). I don't know enough about a pope visit to give another example. I am not sure what the pope visit encompasses as far as events.

I mean really, comparisons only work when they are logical

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I live near NYC
I dont understand why these tourists get so crazy about these Broadway shows!
I just calm down and pick a different day

I am not a New Yorker, but I don't see how tourists do that with anything anywhere.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Hey now hold on a minute. I much prefer TT and especially Typhoon Lagoon to the Tower Eiffel!

I humbly request your forgiveness for my offense!

You may very well be serious/correct, as the Tower is kind of a PITA. However, in your golden years, when regaling your great grandchildren with the wondrous stories of the incredible sites you have seen in your long, illustrious lifetime......even though a day at TL may be more fun, I kinda want the Eiffel Tower on my list instead. That's all I meant!

 

[JimmyV]

Not up on my latest Broadway shows--so we will to with a show not playing anymore...

Rent was pretty popular, right? How easy was it to get tickets when it first opened ?

Rent won plenty of awards, but it was never a particularly difficult show to get tickets for.

Are you proposing that Disney should permit resales of FP+ via a FP+ broker?

Irrelevant. The topic of discussion is, (or has become) is it easier to plan a Disney vacation or a vacation to some other destination. The existence of ticket brokers make planning trips to other locations easier. That may disgust you. Or it might cost you more. But one cannot ignore that the option exists and that the option makes planning much easier.

And the Anna and Elsa line remains open--and I haven't seen anyone complaining of 4 hour waits lately except to bring up the outdated wait time in an argument. When data has expired, one might consider a new talking point to rely upon.

I thought I said 3 hours. (See post #217). But whatever. Waits were 4 hours and more during Christmas break. The data isn't that stale. The talking point is...according to you, one always has the option of seeing A&E in the standby line and that A&E never sell out. "Always" is a hard word to use if the posted wait is 180 minutes. Who goes to the MK to do just two or three things in a day?

Would you agree that people might be willing of wait 4 hours if a ticket was available? They wait days for a 57 cent computer at Best Buy. I fully believe that if given the opportunity, some folks would indeed wait all that time for a coveted Broadway show ticket.

You've lost me here. Are we back to Broadway shows, or still on Anna & Elsa? Not too many people will wait 4 hours in line for a Broadway show. Locals will come back at a different time if they see a 4 hour line and out-of-towners generally have their tickets in hand before the plane touches down. And if they don't, they tip the hotel concierge to secure them tickets or....wait for it....buy from a broker.

But since they do sell out, there is no opportunity for you to prove that they wouldn't. So any postulating that you can get tickets if you are willing to pay for them through a legal scalper or wait in a line for discounted tickets is not really relevant.

Lost me again. What is selling out? Prove that what wouldn't? You seem to be trying to equate two things that cannot be equated. And that is where this discussion started. Because of the way Broadway tickets are bought and sold, taking into account box office, TKTS and brokers, getting tickets cannot be compared to getting a FP+. No one has to be on their computer at midnight 60 days in advance to see a Broadway show. Getting tickets is simply easier, albeit, more expensive, if one is looking only at that one activity to the exclusion of all others.