Teachers....are we failing the smart kids?

[Poohforyou]

Just for the record, I believe the term "gifted" should be banned from the English language. It's like saying, "My kid is BLESSED". Oh please.

It is a ridiculous term especially since something like less than 1% of the population can really be classified as gifted. Our district uses the term "exceptionally able" which I think is more fitting. Students who qualify for the program receive an EALP (Exceptionally Able Learning Plan) which is revised each year as needed. It outlines the accommodations that will be made like being pulled out for advanced classes or being given independent work.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

Sorry, but when a teacher says she can't help a child because she is helping other children that is just a fact of life. Even in that perfect classroom that everyone keeps talking about, where kids are divided by skill level some kids are going to need more help. It isn't about special Ed funding. Same goes in my house. Sometimes one kid needed more attention or help. A fact of life.

I am not sure how to read this post. Are you saying that my opinion is wrong and yours is right, or that you disagree with me?

 

[mamacatnv]

Clearly a discussion board is not going to change your beliefs.

I KNOW from first hand classroom experience that what you believe to be true is not the reality.

You are correct, a discussion board is not going to change my mind nor is it obviously going to change yours.

Yeah you, you have classroom experience. Well, until you have been in every classroom in every school in the country you cannot with any accuracy tell me what I have seen and experienced which leads to the comments I have made.

 

[mamacatnv]

Darn those kids who need help.

No one said that. The original question was are we failing the smart kids? Many of us think we are. There is a whole myriad of theories and ideas as to why but the consensus from what I have read here is that the majority of responders do feel we are failing our smart kids.

Smart kids need help too but are often overlooked. How is that just and fair?

Darn those smart kids who need help.

 

[HelenePA]

For those who think we spend too much on SpEd what exactly would you like to see cut? or how should they be "schooled"? I'm curious to know what you all think. Unlike most of the dis I DO have a child in SpEd and on the flip side her sister is very smart. She is not gifted but she picks stuff up much quicker than any other kid I know. Not sure about the boys since they are still younger... neither will be SpEd like her sister though. She had a closed head injury with a car accident we were in she was 18 months old. She IS in a lifeskills class. Her memory isn't the greatest with reading and spelling. She also has a (now minor) speech delay. So do you think I should just keep her at home and let her watch TV all day and not even try to school her since she'll never go to college or probably live on her own? Not sure about ever having a job... Where does she fit into your "they spend too much on SpEd kids"?

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

For those who think we spend too much on SpEd what exactly would you like to see cut? ...

I don't think we spend too much on special education. I think that we spend too little on general education. I think that the reason that we spend too little on general education is because studies showed that integrating the education of the two groups would benefit those with special needs. It has worked, but at great cost to those who are not special needs students. Not because anyone wanted that to happen, but because the money was mixed and then reduced. The two groups did not see equal reductions in funding. Eventually, you get where we are today.

Again, no one wanted it to happen this way, but it did. The question really is, where do we go from here?

 

[mamacatnv]

For those who think we spend too much on SpEd what exactly would you like to see cut? or how should they be "schooled"? I'm curious to know what you all think. Unlike most of the dis I DO have a child in SpEd and on the flip side her sister is very smart. She is not gifted but she picks stuff up much quicker than any other kid I know. Not sure about the boys since they are still younger... neither will be SpEd like her sister though. She had a closed head injury with a car accident we were in she was 18 months old. She IS in a lifeskills class. Her memory isn't the greatest with reading and spelling. She also has a (now minor) speech delay. So do you think I should just keep her at home and let her watch TV all day and not even try to school her since she'll never go to college or probably live on her own? Not sure about ever having a job... Where does she fit into your "they spend too much on SpEd kids"?

Honestly I didn't hear a lot of we spend too much on SpEd kids here on this thread. I also have not read anyone stating that SpEd kids should be uneducated, sitting at home vegetating. I'm not hearing that here.
I'm sorry about your daughter.
What type of learning environment would be your dream environment?

My dream environment would be to group all kids by ability so that they all get the attention they need and deserve.

Challenge the smart ones with enrichment so that they can engage their creative thinking and grow intellectually. I'm not talking about given them an extra math class, I'm talking about expanding their boundaries and the way they think.

SpEd kids would have the resources they need and would have the attention of teachers who were trained to give them what they need so that they can be the best they can be.

Low kids would have teachers who had the time to devote to their needs too.

Behavior problems would not be tolerated. Teachers would not have to deal with abusive, violent children or parents.

Our society would accept that we cannot treat all children the same and that there is nothing wrong with our best and brightest excelling.

 

[RabbitFood]

You are correct, a discussion board is not going to change my mind nor is it obviously going to change yours.

Yeah you, you have classroom experience. Well, until you have been in every classroom in every school in the country you cannot with any accuracy tell me what I have seen and experienced which leads to the comments I have made.

By "yeah" I'm guessing you mean yay, as in hooray? If so, thank you! I do love my job and consider myself fortunate to be working with great students in a great district.

 

[castleview]

As a parent I will say yes.

 

[HelenePA]

There is only so much money in the pot.. if we dont take from SpEd to give to GenEd.. where does the "more" money come from? Do we take away stuff like Art, Gym, Sports? No computers? Raise taxes? Where does it come from?

I do not feel 45min of speech that she gets in school is adequate for my dd, so ya know what I do? I pay for extra time at a hospital. Can't you do this if you dont feel something is adequate for your child? Or do you think you shouldn't have to? I'd love for my dd8 to get taught a higher level of Math than she is going to learn but I know that isnt going to happen in school. I'm going to have to either suck it up, find some where on the computer that she can learn about algebra herself take her to the library and get her some books on it and try and teach it to her myself or try and find her some sort of tutor to teach her that I will pay OOP for... I wish I had this kind of problem for my 10 yr old but instead I see her trying to remember how to spell her home address over and over again day after day...

ETA just so you hate SpEd more She goes to school in the summer 3 days a week for 3 hours a day... She LOVES it and is very sad Thursday is her last day there...

 

[castleview]

For those who think we spend too much on SpEd what exactly would you like to see cut? or how should they be "schooled"? I'm curious to know what you all think. Unlike most of the dis I DO have a child in SpEd and on the flip side her sister is very smart. She is not gifted but she picks stuff up much quicker than any other kid I know. Not sure about the boys since they are still younger... neither will be SpEd like her sister though. She had a closed head injury with a car accident we were in she was 18 months old. She IS in a lifeskills class. Her memory isn't the greatest with reading and spelling. She also has a (now minor) speech delay. So do you think I should just keep her at home and let her watch TV all day and not even try to school her since she'll never go to college or probably live on her own? Not sure about ever having a job... Where does she fit into your "they spend too much on SpEd kids"?

I just want to see more money put toward kids on the high performing end - or at least the federal govt. handling special ed costs so it doesn't eat up the local school budget. If we can challenge those kids and give them extra attention, we may cure most brain injuries one day.

 

[Val]

My DD13 is BOTH special education and "gifted". She is hearing impaired, wears hearing aids, needs speech therapy, but is a straight A student in advanced classes. The teachers don't quite know what to do....technically, in our district she CAN'T be both spec. ed and gifted....like kids fit into a single category. I do know that the teachers depend on her to up the average of the spec ed kids on standardized test scores, depend on her to help out with the autism spectrum kids because they have no training in how to teach to those kids, and my daughter is a natural at it. OTH, I have been in the psychology/education business long enough to remember the days when all cognitively impaired/autism spectrum kids were institutionalized and special education was a warehouse at best- and that is certainly no solution. The answer, unfortunately, is better training for our teachers, more support personnel, and alternative means of measuring progress (is a kid with mental retardation really expected to make a whole year's academic progress in a single school year? The word "retardation" means slowed. They should progress at the rate that is appropriate for their abilities!). But, we are also losing our academically bright kids to boredom and laziness (and yes, I mean laziness and coasting along without being challenged).

Interestingly, there is a recent article about the Shanghai educational system....it seems to have mastered the best of both ends of the spectrum. (I can't find the link right now, will post later). Interestingly, they pay their teachers well but expect high qualifications, the parents are involved in their kids education, and expectations are set high for all kids- some kids just have to work a little harder or longer to get to the same place. Perhaps if we could have a control-alt-delete reset of our school system and reprogram our nation to value education, value learning, and support the schools, we might solve the crisis. Until then, I worry about our kids' future.

 

[arielsleepingbeauty]

I strongly feel that teachers need more help in the classroom. How can we expect a teacher to handle 20 plus students with different learning levels? Obviously they have to give more time to the students that can't keep up and they cannot go forward if so many kids are falling behind. It is a catch 22. Our children are losing out because of a failed system, not the teacher (although it may be in some cases)
Why is it when spending is cut, it always is cut in the schools? Our future depends on these kids. Shouldn't we be giving them the best education we possibly can?

 

[disfan07]

Until we can get ceratin politicians to stop attacking teachers and the teaching profession, nothing is going to change.

And until we get rid of that piece of junk called NCLB nothing is going to change.

The thing is, in many of the disadvantaged schools, sped services are seriously underfunded as well. And IMHO, especially in those areas, the kids in SpEd need many more services than those who are "gifted".

Oh, and by the way, the term "gifted" is ridiculous. As a pp said, only about 1% of the population is considered "gifted". But at times it seems like they are all children of people on these boards.

I personally think that if we have to choose, more funding should go towards SpEd services. At my high school, they provided SpEd serviecs up until 21 for those students who would never go to college.

"gifted" students have a lot of options as well becasue actually being "gifted" is so rare.

What you guys are talking about are academically advanced but in no way gifted.

The thing is, children who are in SpEd classes, usually need those services to attend school at all. Without those services, many of them would not be able to function in a school setting at all. All children should have access to an education whether it is a "normal" school education or in a modified setting that works on life skills, or just social interaction.

Those who are academically adavnced don't actually need accomodations to attend school. They can attend school in a normal setting.

The goal is to get as many children, regardless of abilities into a school and social setting and that is what SpEd services aim to do.

I think SpEd services are much more important and take great precedent over services for those who might be a little more advanced.

And what "help" are you guys talking about for smart kids? I'm just trying to figure out how that falls on the same level as SpEd. SpEd kids need the services to attend school. Do most academically advanced students need extra help to attend school?

What do you think schools should be doing for "smart" students?

My district had separate GT programs for students K-6 who were actually advanced enough to test in (so no parents just saying that little Joe was so smart...they actually had to prove it).
Our middle school had honors classes and we had a separate GT middle school as well
Our high schools had AP classes, plus the academy which had career specilaty classes (adavanced IT classes, adavanced anatomy/physiology, etc)

I think those services are perfectly fine for smart kids.

 

[disfan07]

I strongly feel that teachers need more help in the classroom. How can we expect a teacher to handle 20 plus students with different learning levels? Obviously they have to give more time to the students that can't keep up and they cannot go forward if so many kids are falling behind. It is a catch 22. Our children are losing out because of a failed system, not the teacher (although it may be in some cases)
Why is it when spending is cut, it always is cut in the schools? Our future depends on these kids. Shouldn't we be giving them the best education we possibly can?

Because teachers are scapegoats right now for some of these governors in particular. They are unionized so they make a good target for them. They just haven't figured out the damage they have done and are currently doing.
Public services are the target of certain people right now and some of the most important public employees (the teachers) are unfortunately being targetted.

 

[golfgal]

For those who think we spend too much on SpEd what exactly would you like to see cut? or how should they be "schooled"? I'm curious to know what you all think. Unlike most of the dis I DO have a child in SpEd and on the flip side her sister is very smart. She is not gifted but she picks stuff up much quicker than any other kid I know. Not sure about the boys since they are still younger... neither will be SpEd like her sister though. She had a closed head injury with a car accident we were in she was 18 months old. She IS in a lifeskills class. Her memory isn't the greatest with reading and spelling. She also has a (now minor) speech delay. So do you think I should just keep her at home and let her watch TV all day and not even try to school her since she'll never go to college or probably live on her own? Not sure about ever having a job... Where does she fit into your "they spend too much on SpEd kids"?

The Special Ed requirements have just gotten out of control. They are not subject to the same cuts that general ed is. When a district is forced to pay $50K+/year on ONE student, this is what can be cut. That one student that will never learn to walk, talk or feed himself has a one on one teacher and however many aids to make sure he can do exactly what??? This should NOT be the responsibility of a school district. Most school districts the special ed budget is half to 3/4ths of their total operating budget for less than 10% of the kids in the district--tell me that some of this can't be cut . The gen ed kids are expected to do more with less and less each year but the special ed kids never face cuts. Tell me how this is even right.

The idea was that kids with special needs were to receive an appropriate education--tell me how a one on one teacher and 2 aids is appropriate for a child that will never walk, talk or feed himself. Post after post here about any child that has been diagnosed with some acronym is all about getting everything you can and screw the rest of the kids and if you don't like that, sue the school. That mentality just has to stop. One mom here was going to sue the school because her work schedule didn't coincide with the school schedule and she wanted the school to pay for day care because her child was a special ed student . The latest post a mom was talking about her newly diagnosed child and "what she should ask for"--before the child was even assessed but the team--but why bother with the assessment because the parents don't listen anyway and if they are only granted 4 hours of speech they want 5 (meaning someone ELSE gets less time).

How about special ed budgets be subject to the same cut backs the rest of the school faces taking the burden off the gen ed to whether the cuts totally. How about not forcing the gen ed kids into classes of 35-45 kids so that one kid that will never walk, talk or feed him self can have a teacher and 2 aides to himself? How about being REASONABLE and realizing that it isn't an endless supply of money and the school can only do so much and maybe you will just have to deal with that like the rest of the school???

Heaven forbid that you think negatively about the special ed budget though because that means you want all special ed kids locked up in institutions .

 

[golfgal]

Until we can get ceratin politicians to stop attacking teachers and the teaching profession, nothing is going to change.

And until we get rid of that piece of junk called NCLB nothing is going to change.

The thing is, in many of the disadvantaged schools, sped services are seriously underfunded as well. And IMHO, especially in those areas, the kids in SpEd need many more services than those who are "gifted".

Oh, and by the way, the term "gifted" is ridiculous. As a pp said, only about 1% of the population is considered "gifted". But at times it seems like they are all children of people on these boards.

I personally think that if we have to choose, more funding should go towards SpEd services. At my high school, they provided SpEd serviecs up until 21 for those students who would never go to college.

"gifted" students have a lot of options as well becasue actually being "gifted" is so rare.

What you guys are talking about are academically advanced but in no way gifted.

The thing is, children who are in SpEd classes, usually need those services to attend school at all. Without those services, many of them would not be able to function in a school setting at all. All children should have access to an education whether it is a "normal" school education or in a modified setting that works on life skills, or just social interaction.

Those who are academically adavnced don't actually need accomodations to attend school. They can attend school in a normal setting.

The goal is to get as many children, regardless of abilities into a school and social setting and that is what SpEd services aim to do.

I think SpEd services are much more important and take great precedent over services for those who might be a little more advanced.

And what "help" are you guys talking about for smart kids? I'm just trying to figure out how that falls on the same level as SpEd. SpEd kids need the services to attend school. Do most academically advanced students need extra help to attend school?

What do you think schools should be doing for "smart" students?

My district had separate GT programs for students K-6 who were actually advanced enough to test in (so no parents just saying that little Joe was so smart...they actually had to prove it).
Our middle school had honors classes and we had a separate GT middle school as well
Our high schools had AP classes, plus the academy which had career specilaty classes (adavanced IT classes, adavanced anatomy/physiology, etc)

I think those services are perfectly fine for smart kids.

You know what, NO they don't. If the special ed community wasn't so adamant on "mainstreaming" MOST of the special ed kids would do JUST FINE in school being able to be in a class with other kids on their level or a class with kids with similar needs. Up until the past 20 years or so, what many call special ed now were simply slower learners. They were put in smaller classes and given material that they could work at their own pace. They were challenged but not over their heads where they couldn't function. The more advanced students were in another class where they were given material where they could work at their pace, being challenged and NOT held back because of the one child in the class that couldn't keep up. Because we can't have kids that have low self-esteem, all of these kids are mixed together now so no one knows who is slower or faster at things (even though the kids all know anyway).

If it takes a child two days to master a concept but everyone else has it down in half a class period-how is this helping their self-esteem knowing that everyone else gets it and you don't????

 

[aprilgail2]

I just want to see more money put toward kids on the high performing end - or at least the federal govt. handling special ed costs so it doesn't eat up the local school budget. .

I strongly feel that teachers need more help in the classroom. How can we expect a teacher to handle 20 plus students with different learning levels? Obviously they have to give more time to the students that can't keep up and they cannot go forward if so many kids are falling behind. It is a catch 22. Our children are losing out because of a failed system, not the teacher (although it may be in some cases)
Why is it when spending is cut, it always is cut in the schools? Our future depends on these kids. Shouldn't we be giving them the best education we possibly can?

When one teacher has to handle 10 IEP's in one class its hard trying to teach to everyones IEP! Seems now that half the kids in a class have and IEP.
With our budget cuts this year one of the things they cut was the gifted and talented programs-I don't feel its fair to cut all the programs for gifted and talented and none from special ed (my daughter is in NEITHER). The special ed kids still get their 5 day a week after school extra gym class--thats most important it seems! When you start cutting from one and not the other it certainly breeds resentment!
They also had deep cuts into the honors program-my daughter still made the cut on that but other kids that should have been in there are now stuck in classes that are slower because they had cut honors teachers.
No matter what you cut people are never happy but it seems they neer cut anything from special ed- in fact they seem to get more each year while the other kids lose things each year- its just not a fair system!

 

[Magic Mom]

I just want to see more money put toward kids on the high performing end - or at least the federal govt. handling special ed costs so it doesn't eat up the local school budget. If we can challenge those kids and give them extra attention, we may cure most brain injuries one day.

I don't agree. There is no gaurantee that gifted kids are the only people that can grow up to cure cancer. All the kids need more challenge and special attention. If parents of gifted kids want supplemental intervention, they can pay for it themselves just like the parents of average/above-average-but-not-gifted kids have to do.

 

[golfgal]

I don't agree. There is no gaurantee that gifted kids are the only people that can grow up to cure cancer. All the kids need more challenge and special attention. If parents of gifted kids want supplemental intervention, they can pay for it themselves just like the parents of average/above-average-but-not-gifted kids have to do.

So, then the same goes for the parents of special ed kids then, if they want extra intervention they should pay for it too