Speaking of breeding dogs....

CF'er

<font color=darkorchid>Mine's so padded I'm afraid
Joined
May 31, 2005
The crappy people we bought our Golden Retrievers from are still breeding. Our male developed severe hip dysplasia that was discovered at 7-8 months of age. Hip surgery for him is not "if it's needed but WHEN it's needed". I immediately called the breeder who assured me that this had never happened before. Uh, right I believe you NOT. They refunded my money. All they have done since is put a health guarantee (dysplasia isn't covered..... shocking) on their website and keep on breeding.

True definition of a puppy mill.

Can you tell I'm not happy.
 
Is there a govt. dept. in your state that regulates such things? I'd check with your vet or maybe the local Humane society. Despicable.
 
The crappy people we bought our Golden Retrievers from are still breeding. Our male developed severe hip dysplasia that was discovered at 7-8 months of age. Hip surgery for him is not "if it's needed but WHEN it's needed". I immediately called the breeder who assured me that this had never happened before. Uh, right I believe you NOT. They refunded my money. All they have done since is put a health guarantee (dysplasia isn't covered..... shocking) on their website and keep on breeding.

True definition of a puppy mill.

Can you tell I'm not happy.

How is Mater doing? Are the meds still working?
 
I'm really sorry to hear that your puppy has hip dysplasia. :( I can only imagine how horrible you must feel.

But without knowing any other background on the breeders, and giving them the benefit of the doubt that they, at a minimum, had the parents' hips tested prior to breeding, I think the term puppy mill may be misused. I know you're disappointed and angry, but the breeders did do the right thing in this situation by refunding your money. A true puppy mill wouldn't give you the time of day once your check cleared the bank (that's even if they ever met you at all since most puppy mills sell directly to pet stores.)

Most hip dysplasia does have a genetic component, but I know of some very reputable breeders who don't guarantee against dysplasia because of the additional factors (diet, excercise, trauma, etc.) that can contribute to it. Now again, I'm assuming that these were health tested parents and that they didn't repeat the same breeding which produced the dysplastic pup, but keep in mind that mother nature always has the final say and even the best breeders can sometimes have puppies with health problems. The true mark of a good breeder is how they deal with the situation. And in this case, it seems like they dealt with it by refunding your money.

Again, this doesn't make you feel better about your puppy's problem, I'm sure, but it sounds to me like these people may be backyard breeders, but probably not a puppy mill.
 


Yes, it sounds like a backyard breeder if they didn't do the basic screening tests to guard against hip dysplasia. I say "guard against" because, like someone else point out, joint issues can be exacerbated by foolish things people do like take 4 month old puppies on 3 mile runs, throw balls for them to catch so that they jump off porches onto the driveway to go after the ball dozens of times in a row, etc. You'd be amazed the damage some people can inflict on animals unintentionally. (The same can be said for people who want their 8 year old throwing curve balls and training 15 hours a day to be an Olympic gymnast, both of which result in degeneration/arthritis at a very early age). In no way am I saying the OP did any such thing -- if it's there in puppyhood it's pretty clear it's a congenital condition. But that's why even ethical breeders can't give blanket orthopedic guarantees for conditions that crop up in adulthood.

A conscientious breeder will have done extensive screening for hip dysplasia, actively looking for it and eliminating it. In a breed like Goldens, hip x-rays are absolutely a must-do health screening test for any prospective breeding animals, and have been pretty much ethically mandatory for 10 years or more, which means a conscientious breeder should have hip xray ratings for at least 4-5 generations behind each breeding pair (and a good amount of information on their siblings, as well). As health tests go, it's one of the cheaper ones, especially since you only have to do it once (unlike other tests that need to be repeated annually). It's not foolproof, but it's enough that if done conscientiously, a breeder should definitely be able to prevent recognizable hip dysplasia at such an early age. Just saying "we've never had that problem" isn't enough. A paper trail showing that three quarters of the dogs in the last 5 generations of the dog's pedigree rated Good or Excellent hips, on the other hand, is a sign that the breeder was at least TRYING to watch out for danger in this area.

If it's any consolation to the OP, I once knew a young Golden that a friend adopted from Yankee Golden Retriever Rescue. Shortly after they adopted him they did one hip (the rescue group paid for it), then after he recovered, they did the other. He was a happy, perky pup throughout both surgeries and recoveries, and went on to be a perfectly happy and healthy pet. They were fortunate enough to not have to bear the expense of the surgeryies(and the dog/rescue group was fortunate enough that a loving family was willing to adopt a dog that they KNEW was going to require lots of TLC through several major surgeries).
 
Mater is doing good on the asprin therapy. He still runs funny but I think it's more to do with the instability of the joint.

The posters are correct, I misused the term puppy mill and should have said backyard breeder.

According to my AKC pedigree there are no health certificates filed for 3 generations. They have done the DNA submission but no hip clearance. The breeders have 2 or 3 females and one male that they breed. There is a current litter available using the female/male combo that produced my puppies.
It just bothers me that it can be genetic yet they still are breeding. I would say that the "health disclaimer" is now a butt covering attempt.

Just my opinion and 2 cents.
 
If they haven't done hip clearances and are repeating the same breeding that produced the dysplastic pup, then they are indeed backyard breeders and you have every right to be angry. In my previous post, I just wanted to point out that just because a breeder produces an unhealthy pup, it does not necessarily make them a "bad" or irresponsible breeder. When dealing with mother nature, things can crop up no matter what precautions you take. But a truly responsible breeder will do everything possible to reduce the chances of something bad happening, which includes all available health screening for both parents.

In your case, it does sound like these people should no longer be breeding. I'm sorry you're going through this, and wish Mater the best of luck in his recovery.
 


I am so sorry to hear about your baby. I started the thread yesterday about someone in my complex wanting to mate their yorkie with mine. I am definately not doing it. Breeding and being a breeder is a full-time job and needs someone who knows what they are doing. My "reputable" breeder sold me a teacup yorkie for $850 that was NOT a teacup and with ringworm and it took me months to get rid of it. All they said was "so sue me".....what was I to do? I wanted my puppy so I basically told them I would go out of my way to make sure when anyone asked me where I purchased my dog or could get a yorkie......well, you know the rest. I grew up in a time when neighbors would get together and mate dogs to keep them or maybe sell them or usually give them to friends or family. I had a schnauzer and they had a poodle....voila.....schnoodles.......not for profit, but for your family. I am so sorry you are going thru this with your dog. It's pitiful that there are such bad people out there for money and not for the good of dogs......just look at Vick, which is the most disgusting thing I have heard of in years........Hang in there with your baby:hug:
 
Ergh. Backyard Breeders...:headache:

I used to work for a vet. One time a couple came in to get check ups for their dogs. They were AKC registered golden retrievers. They were also father & daughter dog. The vet recommended against it. Yup. You guessed it. These morons went ahead and allowed them to mate. We found out they did it when they came in with the litter of new puppies...all but a few dead. The few that did survive had the markings of a rottweiler. The vet tried to explain that the surviving pups had a different father...but they didn't want to hear that. They registered them as AKC golden retrievers. :rolleyes2

AKC "papers" aren't worth anything.
 
Sorry to hear about your dog. We got a rescue border collie that ended with hip dysplasia in both hips with mild arthritis setting in. She also ended up with patella luxation that required surgery. Vet thinks it has to do with the hips. As I know very little about the dysplasia I asked if should put her down (don't want her in pain). He told me that she was fine and he would let me know if she ever got to that point. I love my Vet. They love animals more then people and will let you know when you are prolonging an animal's life for your own sake and not the animals.

Good luck with your puppy.:hug: We've already started meds for the arthritis. I need to buy her the glucosamine tablets. I understand that helps as well.
 
AKC "papers" aren't worth anything.

I'd clarify to say they're not worth much more than the information on them and the integrity of the people standing behind the names on the pedigree. People will cheat just about any system, but that doesn't make the system wrong -- it just means that when you reference the system you have to know what to look for and what the information you're given means.

A pedigree with no champions on it isn't useless because the dogs are inferior, per se, it's useless because you have no way of knowing who the dogs were, and what they were like. A dog with recognizable names in the pedigree carries with it a group of people (represented in the kennel names) who know this dog or his ancestors and what they were like.

Certainly be mistrustful of people who brag about "AKC papers." The junkiest junk heap down the street has registration papers with our state motor vehicle department, but if I'm looking to buy a blue Corolla, the registration papers alone won't distinguish between one that's in dismal shape and one that's pristine. You have to look further than make and model to make that distinction.
 
I have owned three goldens and I just love this breed. I am sorry that you and your dog are dealing with this. But as far as breeders go, what happened to you was not right, but she did reimburse you for the dog. My last golden was is now 10 cost me $1500, we got him as a puppy. I am not sure what you paid for the dog but beware if the price sounds like a good deal. We researched breeders very carefully before we purchased our goldens. Before the golden, I had a bad experience with a backyard breeder with our Westie. At age 1, he started biting unprovoked. We eventually had to put him down. Buyers beware, there are alot of folks just looking for the buck.
 
Patty3 has a good point. An extra $500 may seem exhorbitant for a puppy purchase, but I know in my neck of the woods that's only 3-4 office visits to the vet. What started out as a bargain may not seem like one for long.

But again -- price isn't everything. There ARE ethical breeders just trying to find the RIGHT home for their dogs, and selling for less than they COULD get for their dogs if they find that right home. Not that you can call up and say you want a discount, but if you develop a relationship with a good breeder by buying a dog, next time you want a dog, they may prefer to place a pup with you than somebody offering more for it, just because they know what a good home you have. Likewise, if you have a friend who has a relationship with a breeder, that may put you higher on the list if they have a good relationship and your friend vouches for you.

The principle concern for a good breeder is identifying the perfect forever home for each pup they've brought into the world... not cashing the check. If it seems to be all about cashing the check, trust your instincts and walk away.
 
If anyone wants to read the nitty gritty about hip dysplasia and breeding information from the OFA - Orthopedic Foundation of America - here is the link: http://www.offa.org/

My understanding is that two parents can be OFA certified but that doesn't absolutely guarantee the pup won't develop hip dysplasia. It does lessen the chances, though, and as someone else pointed out, makes it clear that at least the breeders were trying to eliminate the problem in the pups. Knock on wood, 6 German Shepherds here and no hip dysplasia. My current dog's parents were OFA certified and there was wording in the contract about it. However, as I mentioned on the other thread, friends of ours just found out their 1yo dog has it, and I know someone else who also just found it in their 1yo dog as well.

My sympaties to the OP. Hopefully your dog will do well for a long time without surgery. Walking, swimming, gentle exercises are great to build up muscle around the hip. Jumping up and landing hard, twisting, etc - not so great for the joint. Our friends' dog who is very active did something which caused him to be very lame for about a week (which is how they found this out) but then he was ok. Their orthopedist is taking a wait and see approach. He also recommended some meds like glucosamine chodroiton and keeping the weight on the low side to alleviate pressure on the hip.
 
My current golden, now 7 y/o, has papers certifying clear eyes, hips in both parents. I really think the very best way to find a good breeder is to do your homework. Go to a dog show, see who is breeding and showing. That's how we found our present breeder. Yes, she and her partner breed at home, and the dogs are running around their respective houses like nutcases, but they are far from backyard breeders. Their dogs have shown quite successfully...obviously my golden has his 'papers' but he also has another paper that I signed that says I will not breed him. He had an undescended testicle and that is considered a birth defect. However, it did, in fact, drop three days before he was to be neutered!! Called the breeder who tried to have me put off the operation since they thought they may want to breed him now that he was completely fine. Nope, not going down that road. But if he hadn't 'dropped' then they would have stopped breeding his mom in order to stop that in it's tracks.
Look for breeders who are trying to better the breed...not just make some money. I'm so sorry you are having to go through this with your golden. It's a huge pain in many ways. Best of luck to you and your pups!!
 
I bought a maine coon from a good breeder gone bad. My kitten's vet bills were huge and I still worry that he may not have a long life due to potential congenital heart defects.
I tried to have the woman's licensing, etc. revoked and got nowhere. She was an expert at hiding things, shuttled her operation into her mother's and sister's name, etc. She was facing bankruptcy with numerous creditors and no assets so a civil case was useless as well. It is very frustrating. I spoke to several families who received kittens the same time I did who lost them after just a few months.
 
We paid more for the goldens than what we normally would. We usually get dogs from the pound but DH wanted a golden. It is true that you get what you pay for. We paid less up front but will end up paying in the end.

At least he is in a good home and I will do everything in my power to keep him pain free and have a good quality of life.

Thanks for all the support. I just needed to vent.
 
Get ahold of whoever you can to report the breeders... AKC, ASPCA, PETA, the local humane society, anything... sounds puppy-mill ish.

My mom had a Pekingese once who she swears up & down was part Japanese Chin, despite her AKC papers.
 
My mom had a Pekingese once who she swears up & down was part Japanese Chin, despite her AKC papers.

I realize your case isn't current, but if somebody's truly convinced that their dog is not the breed the breeder says it is, you can insist on a DNA test. If the parents listed on the papers are found to be the true parents, you would have to bear the costs (you may have to pay them up front, I don't know). But if you are right, the AKC would take formal action against the breeder and not charge you.

This only works for parentage as far as I recall -- if it's a grandparent that's a Chin and not the dog listed as the sire/dam, the DNA wouldn't pick that up, unless they're now doing that fancy testing that tells you what mix a dog is.
 
I realize your case isn't current, but if somebody's truly convinced that their dog is not the breed the breeder says it is, you can insist on a DNA test. If the parents listed on the papers are found to be the true parents, you would have to bear the costs (you may have to pay them up front, I don't know). But if you are right, the AKC would take formal action against the breeder and not charge you.

This only works for parentage as far as I recall -- if it's a grandparent that's a Chin and not the dog listed as the sire/dam, the DNA wouldn't pick that up, unless they're now doing that fancy testing that tells you what mix a dog is.

I think with DNA testing they can determine what breed(s) your dog is. I thought I heard about it being the new thing for people with mutts to find out exactly what they are. My mom saw the dog's (supposed) parents and said they were both pekingese, but she really did look chin-ish. It's too late now because Ginger is long gone, but it's something to keep in mind for the future. I actually want a pekachin, so.

My mom's pekingese's AKC names were Robin's Ginger & Ginseng and Robin's Kublai Khan (called Cubby). She intended to breed them, but Ginger had an umbilical hernia, and Cubby had a trick knee and something with his eyelids, so she decided it would be irresponsible to breed them and had them fixed. We had a few other peke's along the way, though; Cubby 2, Punky (I named her after Punky Brewster, of course), etc.
 

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