Southwest booted me off my flight!

[goofy4tink]

You guys are giving me a headache..... Just saying.

 

[TLSnell1981]

This is a strategy to attempt to not have any involuntary denied boardings, as it counts against them both in money and time. Instead by calling early, people think the airline is being nice and passengers also accept whatever voucher WN (Southwest) wants to provide, instead of the cash from being IDB.
.

Of course, it benefits the airline. Otherwise, the phone call wouldn't have been made. "Nice" or "considerate" has nothing to do with it.

 

[Lewisc]

I don't want to put words in someone else's mouth, but the answer seems to be: Because an administrative judge specifically has looked at the issue and concluded that denied boarding compensation is only available if the denial occurs at the airport, not in advance.

Thank you. The whole language of bumping refers to what happens at the gate. Far too many qualifiers for anyone to have confidence relying on the DOT email.

A better question is to see if the forced reservation change is even permitted under the CoC. I question if they have right to move the passenger in advance, even if they pay the idb compensation. Change the flight number and the airline is good to go.

Of course, it benefits the airline. Otherwise, the phone call wouldn't have been made. "Nice" or "considerate" has nothing to do with it.

It also benefits the passenger who would otherwise be getting to the airport only to be bumped. The passengers who were moved booked on the Southwest website, weren't going to be given advance seat assignments and would have been the first passengers to be bumped. Those passengers avoided having waste 90 minutes at the airport. A plus for many passengers, a negative for those who would have been happier getting better compensation. Had Southwest not moved the passengers it's likely there would have been more bumped passengers then seats available on the next flight.

 

[seashoreCM]

In the case of South Pacific Island Airways and similar cases it would be up to the passenger to show up at the airport punctually and assert that his printed ticket and not the airline's records or computers established the existence of a reservation and reserved space, and to hold the airline civilly responsible for the consequences if the airline did not honor the reservation or otherwise settle the issue.

If I read correctly, involuntary bumping generally requires cash compensation plus honoring (or pro-rated refunding) of the ticket but seats might be sold out for days.

 

[Greysword]

The whole language of bumping refers to what happens at the gate. Far too many qualifiers for anyone to have confidence relying on the DOT email.

Ok, I give up. Personally, I completely disagree that Involuntary Denial of Boarding must occur at the gate, especially since the pronouncement does not state (nor even hints) at this aspect, and I have an email from the DOT saying the rules apply even if a person is bumped well in advance of the flight (and now the community does as well).

In addition, I am glad this information is shared with this community, as we all have the same recourse and documentation to back it up should the airline call. Use it as you wish. Be wary of the provisions and exceptions, such as cancellations, schedule changes, and aircraft changes, as this is an important component.

Luckily, this did not occur to me, but if it does in the future, I now have decent understanding of the rules and have clarification from the DOT as to their intent in regards to timeline. As such, I have an opportunity to not be inconvenienced if I so choose, or I will be properly compensated, with cash or a larger voucher, if I am inconvenienced due to airline overbooking.

Thanks.

Oh, and for completeness in the documentation, the CoC for WN copies the CFR.

 

[keishashadow]

If they were actually trying to be "nice", they would not have told the OP to pack sand when she said she did not want the bump.

This is a strategy to attempt to not have any involuntary denied boardings, as it counts against them both in money and time. Instead by calling early, people think the airline is being nice and passengers also accept whatever voucher WN (Southwest) wants to provide, instead of the cash from being IDB.

As such, I don't think WN had the OP's best interests at heart.

I do not think there is anyone actually checking to match claim tags to bags at the carousel, so just about anyone could walk up and take a bag. However once all the passengers leave, an airline rep comes along to take control of the bags.

As for how soon this happens, it likely depends on when the baggage claims agent is available, based on customers at their desk, number of flights, other problems, etc. You likely won't get a hard answer, but they may have a range. You'd need to check the baggage claim rules on their website, if they exist.

This is just my analysis from experience, as I do not work (or know anyone that works) for an airline.

maybe you should and things would work more smoothly

good idea re poking around re baggage claim rules to satisfy my curiosity

 

[lurkernj]

Just thought I'd update here a bit. I leave for my trip on Monday (the 15th).

I was stalking the SW site to see if my point values went down, and this past weekend I saw my original flight available again. So I had to call and rebook it(wouldn't let me do it online), it cost about 10k more points than my original flight, but since they gave me $200 credit, I figure it's a wash. I feel so much better that BFF won't be sitting around waiting for me for 1.5 hrs and I won't have to drive home at midnight So, at this point, no harm no foul and I am much wiser for the experience.

I appreciate all the responses from everyone, it was truly educational!

 

[robinb]

Just thought I'd update here a bit. I leave for my trip on Monday (the 15th).

I was stalking the SW site to see if my point values went down, and this past weekend I saw my original flight available again. So I had to call and rebook it(wouldn't let me do it online), it cost about 10k more points than my original flight, but since they gave me $200 credit, I figure it's a wash. I feel so much better that BFF won't be sitting around waiting for me for 1.5 hrs and I won't have to drive home at midnight So, at this point, no harm no foul and I am much wiser for the experience.

I appreciate all the responses from everyone, it was truly educational!

I'm glad that everything worked out in the end. Have a great trip!

 

[Greysword]

I agree, this was a fun and interesting ride. I learned something from it, as did the Miles & Points community, too. Thank you for raising the question.

If you are able to get onto your original flight, then you essentially bought WN credit for $2 per point, which is pretty good! You did well in the end.

 

[lurkernj]

Ah, so the saga continues!

I got to the airport on Saturday for my 6:55p flight, and was told they didn't have a seat for me. I did the check in at exactly 24hrs, and showed up at the gate 1.5 hrs early. Apparently there was a high school class that had the whole flight booked up since January.

There were only 3 people at the gate when I got there, so they did not follow the "last customer to present themselves at the boarding gate" and they did not ask for volunteers.

I was given the brochure for denied boarding and I was asked if I wanted a check or free flights. I said I wanted the check. I signed a paper and he left for 15 minutes and came back and said they couldn't give me a check since I booked with points. He circled a number on the denied boarding brochure for me to call to book the free flights even though I said I didn't want the free flights, I never signed anything accepting the flights, just the check that I didn't receive. They did at least give me a business class seat for the 9:05 flight. But this didn't help my friend who got to sit in Philly airport for 1.5 hrs, though she was a trooper and made many friends.

I don't want the free flights since it appears they have to be used on Airtran (doesn't say Southwest) within one year and are non-transferrable, and have blackout dates. I have plenty of Southwest points so free flights aren't appealing, especially on the limited schedule of Airtran (I checked a few destinations, like Las vegas and New Orleans and they require stopovers with Airtran)

I called Airtran yesterday (around 9:30am) and was put on hold while they called Southwest. I was then told that they needed to push it up to a manager and I would get a call back. By 4:30 I still hadn't been called back so I called Southwest since I was feeling like maybe the Airtran guy just wanted to get me off the phone, but the Southwest guy said he did see it in the computer and a manager would indeed be getting back to me. As of now I still haven't heard from anyone. I will call again around 4:30 today if I still don't hear from them.

 

[robinb]

Holy cow! If you didn't have bad luck you would have no luck at all!

 

[brettb]

<snip>
I was given the brochure for denied boarding and I was asked if I wanted a check or free flights. I said I wanted the check. I signed a paper and he left for 15 minutes and came back and said they couldn't give me a check since I booked with points. He circled a number on the denied boarding brochure for me to call to book the free flights even though I said I didn't want the free flights, I never signed anything accepting the flights, just the check that I didn't receive. They did at least give me a business class seat for the 9:05 flight. <snip>
I called Airtran yesterday (around 9:30am) and was put on hold while they called Southwest. I was then told that they needed to push it up to a manager and I would get a call back. By 4:30 I still hadn't been called back so I called Southwest since I was feeling like maybe the Airtran guy just wanted to get me off the phone, but the Southwest guy said he did see it in the computer and a manager would indeed be getting back to me. As of now I still haven't heard from anyone. I will call again around 4:30 today if I still don't hear from them.

Maybe this is useful, from http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/04/travel/flight-bumping-tips:

What you're owed
Passengers should insist on a check instead of a travel voucher (a free round-trip flight, for example), which many airlines typically offer, because vouchers come with restrictions and can be difficult to redeem (you sometimes can only cash them in at the airport).

If your ticket does not show a fare (for example, a frequent-flier award ticket or a ticket issued by a consolidator), your denied boarding compensation is based on the lowest cash, check or credit card payment charged for a ticket in the same class of service (e.g., coach, first class) on that flight.
If you're bumped but arrive at your destination within an hour of the original time, there's no compensation owed.​

It's funny. I switched over to this thread from the Southwest Lovers thread and as I was reading along and got to the point where you rebooked the original flight, I thought, "Wouldn't it be hilarious/ironic if you got bumped a second time off the same flight?" Holy poop!

I hope you were able to use the $200 voucher to rebook the flight instead of using your own points.....

 

[seashoreCM]

OT: A lot of savvy travelers manage to get voluntary bumps more than once on an itinerary. They also generally only take dollars off vouchers rather than restricted free flight vouchers.

Bump irregularities need to be taken care of as soon as possible, not after you get back home.

The airline got into a tough position because it does not want to break up a large chaperonable group by bumping. But it should be prepared to offer $500. worth of "any flight, any destination, any date and time" travel.

 

[Greysword]

Sweet Christmas, you got bumped twice for the same trip!

Honestly after the discussion on here, I've saved the PDF with the CFR, in case some gate agent tries to pull a fast one (like they did with you). It clearly states in the 14CFR250 that booking on miles count as cash for the purposes of involuntary denial of boarding.

I recommend you write a nice but firm letter to Southwest's parent company explaining the two boarding denials, include the letter I pasted from the FAA, and quote the line that says they owe you cash compensation even though you booked with miles. This way if it gets to the point of a complaint to the FAA, you have proof of formal contact.

Good luck, and I'm sorry WN is turning out to be horrible at the boarding denial rules.

 

[lurkernj]

Don't want to leave you all hanging. It's still not resolved. I can't believe the run around I've been getting. Of course no one called me back, so I've made 5 different calls this morning, Airtran pointing to Southwest, Southwest pointing to Airtran, even at the supervisory level.

I finally got someone in customer relations from Airtran who seemed like she might be helpful, after going through the whole story for 10 minutes, she said she was going to put me on hold and disconnected me. Smoke was coming out of my ears as I dialed back and was put through the music que again. Surprisingly the same person answered my call! She apologized profusely and seemed somewhat helpful. She also told me I was not entitled to cash compensation. She offered to convert my two tickets to A+ rewards so I could convert them to SW points, but since I'm not familiar with this whole thing, and don't feel like dealing with it, I told her I would like to decline that offer. I began quoting the CFR250 and she took a bunch of notes and said she'd have to call upper management and she'd call me back by 2pm. I have her name and direct line.

Now I feel like it's just the principle of the matter. They've managed to p$$ me off and I'm not going to drop this even if I have to file a complaint with the FAA.

 

[lost*in*cyberspace]

.....

Now I feel like it's just the principle of the matter. They've managed to p$$ me off and I'm not going to drop this even if I have to file a complaint with the FAA.

You need to file a complaint with the Department of Transportation, not the FAA.

http://www.dot.gov/airconsumer/file-consumer-complaint

 

[brettb]

Just to work out the nitty gritty, what time was the original flight scheduled to arrive and what time did the later flight actually arrive?

That should determine whether you are owed 0, 200% or 400% of the original fare.

The most important part of 14 CFR 250.5 "Amount of denied boarding compensation for passengers denied boarding involuntarily." (http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/250.5) is:

(d) The requirements of this section apply to passengers with “zero fare tickets.” The fare paid by these passengers for purposes of calculating denied boarding compensation shall be the lowest cash, check, or credit card payment charged for a ticket in the same class of service on that flight.​

According to (c), the airline can *offer* you free or reduced rate transportation but they have to tell you the value of it (which must be => the cash you'd be due) and they must tell you the cash you'd be due. They must also disclose any restrictions on what the offer you. Here's the full section (c):

(c) Carriers may offer free or reduced rate air transportation in lieu of the cash or check due under paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section, if—
(1) The value of the transportation benefit offered, excluding any fees or other mandatory charges applicable for using the free or reduced rate air transportation, is equal to or greater than the cash/check payment otherwise required;
(2) The carrier fully informs the passenger of the amount of cash/check compensation that would otherwise be due and that the passenger may decline the transportation benefit and receive the cash/check payment; and
(3) The carrier fully discloses all material restrictions, including but not limited to, administrative fees, advance purchase or capacity restrictions, and blackout dates applicable to the offer, on the use of such free or reduced rate transportation before the passenger decides to give up the cash/check payment in exchange for such transportation.​

Good luck!

 

[lurkernj]

You need to file a complaint with the Department of Transportation, not the FAA.

http://www.dot.gov/airconsumer/file-consumer-complaint

Thanks for the link. Oddly enough that is the same phone number on the FAA site for Aviation consumer protection.

Just to work out the nitty gritty, what time was the original flight scheduled to arrive and what time did the later flight actually arrive?

That should determine whether you are owed 0, 200% or 400% of the original fare.

The most important part of 14 CFR 250.5 "Amount of denied boarding compensation for passengers denied boarding involuntarily." (http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/250.5) is:

(d) The requirements of this section apply to passengers with “zero fare tickets.” The fare paid by these passengers for purposes of calculating denied boarding compensation shall be the lowest cash, check, or credit card payment charged for a ticket in the same class of service on that flight.​

According to (c), the airline can *offer* you free or reduced rate transportation but they have to tell you the value of it (which must be => the cash you'd be due) and they must tell you the cash you'd be due. They must also disclose any restrictions on what the offer you. Here's the full section (c):

(c) Carriers may offer free or reduced rate air transportation in lieu of the cash or check due under paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section, if—
(1) The value of the transportation benefit offered, excluding any fees or other mandatory charges applicable for using the free or reduced rate air transportation, is equal to or greater than the cash/check payment otherwise required;
(2) The carrier fully informs the passenger of the amount of cash/check compensation that would otherwise be due and that the passenger may decline the transportation benefit and receive the cash/check payment; and
(3) The carrier fully discloses all material restrictions, including but not limited to, administrative fees, advance purchase or capacity restrictions, and blackout dates applicable to the offer, on the use of such free or reduced rate transportation before the passenger decides to give up the cash/check payment in exchange for such transportation.​

Good luck!

Thanks for the quotes. Yes, I'm curious about the % they will offer (if they finally own up to it). The guidelines under the CFR state 400% if the PLANNED arrival time is between 2 and 4 hours later, and 200% between 1-2 hrs later.

My original flight was planned to land at 9:20pm, and the flight I was bumped to was planned to land at 11:30, which is 2 hrs and 10 mins. I actually landed at 11:15, which was 1 hr 55 min, but since compensation was supposed to be made at the gate before the flights, based on the PLANNED arrival times, technically I should be entitled to the 400%. I would have been fine with the 200%, but now they are getting under my skin.

Stay tuned!

 

[robinb]

My original flight was planned to land at 9:20pm, and the flight I was bumped to was planned to land at 11:30, which is 2 hrs and 10 mins. I actually landed at 11:15, which was 1 hr 55 min, but since compensation was supposed to be made at the gate before the flights, based on the PLANNED arrival times, technically I should be entitled to the 400%. I would have been fine with the 200%, but now they are getting under my skin.

Stay tuned!

I don't blame you ONE BIT! Go get 'em girl!

 

[khaoskat]

Sometimes you have to make lemonade out of lemons. There is nothing the OP can do to change it so......therefore.....lemonade!

Get to your airport like you would for the earlier time slot, and ask to go standby....win win...you still get $200, and if standby is available, you get in at your original time.!!!