Segways spark suit vs. Disney

[KYMickey]

Of all the places on earth that would serve as a great testing ground for a whole range of mobility devices - I would think that EPCOT would be at the very top of the list. Testing, displaying and refining new concepts is - after all - the EPCOT mission statement. Instead of flat-out refusing, would not it have made sense for Disney to actualy work with all the group involved? The Segway is not the best answer, but it's probably pretty close. All of the objections raised against it apply to ECV and more so (where people don't even have to pay attention to where they're going) or can and should be fixed (speed regulation). There is such an immediate "they hate Disney so we'll hate them even more" knee-jerk response to the whole situation. It puts Disney in a very bad light.

NO NO NO, the public areas of Epcot should definitely NOT be used as a testing ground for mobility devices or anything else for that matter. Safety should be of the up most priority in any public place and testing mobility devices (or testing of anything they could injure or harm a person in any way) should not be done here or anyplace where the general public could be subject to injury.

Yes, new technologies are one of the objectives of Epcot (at least for future world) and maybe controlled demonstrations of mobility devices could (or should) be done there, BUT members of the general public should not be let loose with any device that is unproven or unapproved for the proposed purpose.

As for the objections to Segways, maybe some do apply to ECV's but certainly to a lesser extent. Balance is not required to operate an ECV and actually the are used by some people who have balance related conditions. On a Segway the entire the entire operation is based on balance and body position so anybody movement (including rapid head moves) can cause the vehicle to move unexpectedly. Segways also are capable of much higher speeds than most ECV's which obviously causes more danger. And the fact that a person driving a Segway is elevated above the general population certainly causes more interaction issues than being down at crowd level. The biggest problem with Segways, ECVs and most other mobility devices is that people consider themselves to be the "rider" instead of "driver" of them. The only way a Segway could be considered safer is because other people could see a rider of one coming and get the **ll out of the way!

What would put Disney in a bad light would be headlines stating "Person injured by Segway rider at Disney"!

 

[Roxane]

Disney security can and should check the handicapped permits in the handicapped parking area if they feel abuse is taking place.

I don't think they check for permits at WDW. I'm recovering from a knee injury and didn't get a permit, since it's temporary. The parking attendents sent me to the handicapped parking and told me to get a GAC, so I just show my GAC now and they let me in. I would hate to get a ticket while I'm temporally disabled, the Dr bills are hard enough.

 

[Ozzie]

I have done the Segway tour and they do move at a faster pace than wheel chairs or motorized scooters. I would see them as a safety hazard in the parks when they would be crowded. I have seen people on the motorized scooters hit people and move on. You put someone on a Segway and they hit and knock someone over I can see it now it would be Disney's fault. Even the person on the Segway would end up putting the blame on Disney for allowing them in the park and Disney would be the party liable for all injuries and damages.
Can't blame them for not allowing them.................

 

[Another Voice]

I personally find ECV the most dangerous things in any Disney park. There isn't a visit that doesn't include seeing at least one child run over, one cart used to shove aside other people in the crowd, feet and toes run over, or assundry trash cans, line poles and other object smashed into.

Because those devices are given special and privileged status, I find them much more of danger than any Segway would ever be. To operate a Segway you must have some training to begin with and actually pay attention to the machine's operation. I've seen plenty of ECV plow right into a line of people becasue the operator was busy doing something else. The fact that you don't need any training or any certification to use an EVC is a serious defect in the ADA.

There is no reason why ECV should be the end all of mobility devices. There should be a constant stream of new technologies, new innoviations and new ideas throughout the entire field. In the community where I live some city departments are already using four wheel Segways - a solution that eliminates the concerns expressed on this board.

I see nothing wrong should Disney decide to allow new and better devices. In fact, the Disney I want to se would work with inventors and companies to create just such devices. The idea that ECV are "safe" is utterly wrong; the idea that everything else is dangerous is even more wrong.

And yes - my leg was crushed in an automobile accident several years ago. I know what it's like to travel Disney being mobility imparied. At this point there is nothing between using a cart for the entire day or suffering it out. There is a huge group of people that can be assisted by other devices than a ECV and that need should be filled.

And that should be the real point of this discussion - who does Disney make its park accessable to a larger number of people instead denying assistance to the people that need it.

 

[minnie61650]

......
There is no reason why ECV should be the end all of mobility devices. There should be a constant stream of new technologies, new innoviations and new ideas throughout the entire field......

I see nothing wrong should Disney decide to allow new and better devices. In fact, the Disney I want to se would work with inventors and companies to create just such devices. The idea that ECV are "safe" is utterly wrong; the idea that everything else is dangerous is even more wrong.

I agree EVC's should not be the end of all mobility devices.
I hope new and better mobility devices are made in the near future.
There are a couple of other mobility devices that Disney already does allow in the parks.
Two that I can think of right now are LEVO'S and iBOT's.

Here is a website about LEVO'S

http://www.levousa.com/

Here a photo:

Here is a website about iBOT's:

http://www.ibotnow.com/about-ibot.html

Here is a photo of an iBOT:

......
.......
And that should be the real point of this discussion - who does Disney make its park accessable to a larger number of people instead denying assistance to the people that need it.

I think Disney is making the parks accessable to a large number people and if Segways were classified as a mobility device than Disney would need to allow them in the parks.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[OneLittleSpark]

Because those devices are given special and privileged status

Sorry, I'm slightly confused here. What privileged status do ECVs get? Other than being treated, if you will, as the user's 'legs'. ECVs are recognised mobility aids, so are allowed into lines (where possible), but the user doesn't get any special benefits because of it. If I've misunderstood this point, I do apologise.

I think Disney is making the parks accessable to a large number people and if Segways were classified as a mobility device than Disney would need to allow them in the parks.

I agree with this! Disney goes above and beyond what is legally required to provide access for all, regardless of abilities. Sure the system isn't perfect, but then what is? They are trying their hardest to help those with disabilities to enjoy the parks, whilst keeping it as safe as possible for all guests. No guests are being excluded by the policy to disallow Segways, they just have to use a different assistive device, such as a wheelchair or ECV. I understand the annoyance of those who use them as a mobility aid, but Disney can't allow anything on wheels in under the name of a disability aid, otherwise people could come in in Quad bikes, trikes, handcycles etc. I doubt all other public businesses allow them in either, it's just that Disney is the 'big guy' so gets a lot of attention (and lawsuits).

Basically, Disney is not obliged to allow these in, full stop. Segways are not recognised mobility aids, nor do the manufacturers want them to be. If they help people with disabilities, great, but unless they become recognised aids, they do not have to be granted access to the parks.

 

[Another Voice]

Basically, Disney is not obliged to allow these in, full stop.

And that's my problem. Disney won't do anything until they're told by law they have to. Instead of saying "what an interesting idea, let's see if this can work" - Disney slammed the door shut on the entire concept. Granted, they make HUGE money from the ECV rentals and have interests to protect - but hiding behind the law is rather cheap and not worthy of the company.

Disney had a wonderful opportunity to be at the forefront of technology and innovation. Instead they refuse to budge - and the very people that ought to be asking for Disney to help instead seem to be the very ones throwing up more walls.

People are so unwilling to actually work through problems today. We've all got our little park and don't want to do an damn to let anyone else in.

What privileged status do ECVs get?

Well, they get in and Segways can't. That's priviledged access. The moment the law says "this machine is special and that one is not" - that's privilege.

 

[Buzz Litebeer]

And that's my problem. Disney won't do anything until they're told by law they have to. Instead of saying "what an interesting idea, let's see if this can work" - Disney slammed the door shut on the entire concept. Granted, they make HUGE money from the ECV rentals and have interests to protect - but hiding behind the law is rather cheap and not worthy of the company.

Segways are not recognized by the FDA as a medical device.

Segways are not marketed by Segway Inc. as a medical device.

It's just that simple.

 

[OneLittleSpark]

We've all got our little park and don't want to do an damn to let anyone else in.

The thing is, this isn't keeping any person out, it's just keeping a device out. I understand your point that if it helps someone, it should be allowed in, and the the person shouldn't have to compromise by using an alternative device. However, Disney does have to think about all their guests, not just the few who use Segways.

Disney won't do anything until they're told by law they have to.

Actually, this isn't true. They do go a lot further than they have to, as far as access is concerned. They can, by law, say that all wheelchair users have to transfer to go on rides, however they have tried their hardest to provide wheelchair accessible ride cars wherever possible.

The objections to Segways entering the parks is not against those who use them daily to get around, they are to stop complete novices 'learning' in the parks. If Disney suddenly said "OK, Segways can come in", how many people, who don't 'need' them for a disability, do you think would run out and rent them from an external company (which would, of course, spring up over night in response to demand).

May I please suggest an alternative scenario? What if someone used a Quad bike as a mobility device? It's not 'officially' a mobility aid, but it might really help this person, because they live in a rural area and the suspension prevents them being jolted around (hey, I'd love to have a quad bike to get around on ). If you were Disney, would you, in all honesty, let them in with it? This may seem like an off-the-wall suggestion, but it is similar, in that it's a device, that has not been intended for mobility purposes, being used in place of a wheelchair.

EDIT: To Buzz Litebeer, thank you for this point, I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Another Voice]

It's just that simple.

Which is exactly my point that people don't want to do anything these days.

I don't have to, so I won't. End of line. Period. The End. You're done. Put down your pencils. Disney is always right.

I'm not saying that Disney should let Segways in, I'm suggesting that Disney should work with these people and others to come up with solutions to the problem. There is probably a fantastic device that can be drivered from Segway that would help millions of people every year.

But no - we can't even be bothered to think about it. How magical.

Of course, all the hostility is becasue a group dared say something not fan approved about Disney. And like all such people, they must be evil. In the end, it has nothing to do with Segways or killer EVCs - it's just plain comforting to believe that Disney is always right and everyone else is always wrong.

Naturally, if Disney had offered Segway rentals for $399 a day with a 20% discount to Annual Passholders and DVC owners, these boards would be overflowing with praise about how much easier it is get around WDW with these wonderful new devices.

 

[OneLittleSpark]

I'm not saying that Disney should let Segways in, I'm suggesting that Disney should work with these people and others to come up with solutions to the problem. There is probably a fantastic device that can be drivered from Segway that would help millions of people every year.

The problem is, Segway don't want to make a mobility device. They want to make transport devices for the public, not mobility aids for those with disabilities. They have not tried to get their device classified as a disability aid, nor do they seem to be about to. This is not a slur against the company, it's just not where their business is working. Besides, as has been pointed out, there are already mobility products on the market that allow the user to "stand". These products are recognised as aids and are allowed into Disney.

Naturally, if Disney had offered Segway rentals for $399 a day with a 20% discount to Annual Passholders and DVC owners, these boards would be overflowing with praise about how much easier it is get around WDW with these wonderful new devices.

No, I honestly don't think Disney would do this. I'm sure they have looked into this carefully and have decided that the danger to all their guests far outweighs the benefits to the few who use Segways daily.

 

[Another Voice]

So then why didn't Disney just say "Segway doesn't want theuir device used for this purpose, but we'll work with the other manufactures that do". Why didn't Disney stand up for innovation and improved guest service when a large need has been brought to their attention? Instead of being helpful, Disney kicked right into being negative and that brought on the lawsuit (even if was just for pubilicity, they wouldn't have been able to get any had Disney been postive).

Disney always is proclaiming how wonderful they are, and the fans are always the first to heap all kinds of praise on the company - but it really seems that Disney has been lacking in real action, in real quality for a long time. I think it's time that Disney start making "magic" more than just an overused marketing bullet point and actually do something unique, innovative and amazing. It's been too long since Disney has been in the news for doing something good.

And in terms of saftey, this is the same park that put people on 'Mission: Space' - but that's the subject for another arguement.

 

[DisOrBust]

The greater issue is the EVC should be use by those who are defined medically as disabled. The user went to a MD who determined they NEED it. The same could be applied to a segway. IMHO, it that simple. Just as HC plates are required on a car so should a permit be for every EVC/Segway. There are many guest who are cognitively impaired and have no business on an EVC.

 

[Buzz Litebeer]

I'm not saying that Disney should let Segways in, I'm suggesting that Disney should work with these people and others to come up with solutions to the problem. There is probably a fantastic device that can be drivered from Segway that would help millions of people every year.

There is. It's called the iBot, and they are approved by the FDA as medical devices. Consequently, they are allowed in the Disney theme parks.

The problem is, Segway don't want to make a mobility device. They want to make transport devices for the public, not mobility aids for those with disabilities.

See above.

 

[KYMickey]

The greater issue is the EVC should be use by those who are defined medically as disabled. The user went to a MD who determined they NEED it. The same could be applied to a segway. IMHO, it that simple. Just as HC plates are required on a car so should a permit be for every EVC/Segway. There are many guest who are cognitively impaired and have no business on an EVC.

I agree completely with your concept that everyone who uses any device for increased mobility to overcome a disability should have an MD'S statement regarding the need. Although quite often abused most states require this to obtain a handicapped parking permit. Disney you or any other place who rents or allows customers to use these devices should also require the user to provide medical proof of need. This would greatly reduce the number of visitors who use ECV's and other special modes of transportation. I would say that Segways should also be able to be used with a doctor's letter but I'm sure that many unscrupulous doctors would write a letter for a fee!

One thing that hasn't been brought up extensively is the fact that there are many lawyers chomping at the bit to file a lawsuit against Disney or any other major corporation. I'm sure they will have a heyday if Segways are ever allowed on Disney Property.

 

[Shorty82]

Disney cannot ask for proof. It is illegal for them to do so. Also, not everybody who can benefit from using a WC or ECV in the parks have proof they need it. For instance, on my last trip my SIL used a WC for our MK day because her fibre myalgia (sp?) had flared up and she was very sore and wouldn't have made it through the day without a WC even though normally she has no need for one. Due to insurance issues she hasn't seen a doctor about it yet so is technically undiagnosed and therefore couldn't have gotten a doctor's note.

Disney already goes way beyond what the law requires for disabled access. Segways in the parks would just be a danger. The operator is way above the rest of the crowd, especially children, so would have a harder time seeing the people who walk or run right in front of them. They can also go a lot faster than is safe for the parks and limiting the person to the slowest key won't work as all they have to do is either switch key caps between the faster and slower keys or carry the faster key in their pocket until they are inside the gates.

 

[SpartanMouse]

If, during your family trip to Disney, someone was using a segway (for medical purposes) you know that EVERYONE else would want to play with it. I know I would!

Plus, my parents did the segway tour around the park a few years ago, and they had to go through some intense training before they were allowed to wheel around by themselves. And this was before the park opened, it was empty!

Disney goes to great lengths to accommodate everyone, depending on the need or even mere desire. I think, though, that segways in the parks would do more damage than it would assistance.

 

[DisOrBust]

But somewhere along the line your SIL got a Dx of fibromyalgia and at that point if deemed medically necessary could get a "permit" for a medical assistive device, even on a prn basis. I know it would be huge amounts of paperwork but that what they said when HC plates came to be. Sorry it is just a pet peeve of mine, I'll get off my soapbox.

I could see where a segway could be a great assistive device for specific cases. I also can see the herd of lawsuits with it.

 

[DisOrBust]

But somewhere along the line your SIL got a Dx of fibromyalgia and at that point if deemed medically necessary could get a "permit" for a medical assistive device, even on a prn basis. I know it would be huge amounts of paperwork but that what they said when HC plates came to be. Sorry it is just a pet peeve of mine, I'll get off my soapbox.

I could see where a segway could be a great assistive device for specific cases. I also can see the herd of lawsuits with it.

 

[minnie61650]

The greater issue is the EVC should be use by those who are defined medically as disabled. The user went to a MD who determined they NEED it. ...

If someone is using a EVC at Disney just because they are "lazy" I think they would find out after the first day the EVC's are very inconvenient especially at Disney.
Those of us using an EVC seem to become "invisible" since able bodied guests seem to be crossing in front of us, stopping in front of us and never seem to see us until it is time for us to load onto a bus. When we are loading onto a bus that is when we become very visible.
It is very hard to drive an EVC in the crowds in the parks.
It is not easy backing up an EVC onto the bus lift and maneuvering the EVC into the tie down is very difficult. Add to that the stares we recieve and the rude comments we overhear can be heartbreaking. I highly doubt "lazy" people would submit themselves to that for very long.
Also EVC rental is quite expensive. My EVC cost over $200 to rent for one week. Most "lazy" people would rather spend the money on other things.
The EVC's that are loaded onto the buses are either privately owned or are rented from an offsite company.
I doubt that "lazy" people would think ahead enough to preorder an EVC from an offsite company.

Sure there may be a few people who use EVC's because they are lazy but I am betting they learn quickly it not easy or fun to use an EVC at WDW.
I know I wish I did not need to use one but without an EVC WDW would be inaccessible to me.

----------------------------------------------------------

I honstly do not see any advantage to renting a mobility scooter/EVC at WDW other than the fact that the user will be able to sit while touring the parks.

There is no front of the line advantage.
In fact our waits are often longer than the waits for able bodied guests.

Here is a Quote from SueM in MN who is a Moderator of the disABILITIES board.

From this thread:
http://disboards.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=22106520

......
People using wheelchairs or ECVs don't get out of waiting in line.
Most of the lines at WDW are wheelchair accessible, so there are very few situations where someone actually goes thru a wheelchair entrance. In most cases, they wait in the same line with everyone else. For a very few attractions, there is an alternate entrace because the regular one isn't accessible and was not able to be made accessible (most in MK or Epcot since they were built before accessibility was thought of). There are some others, where the boarding area is not accessible and wheelchair/ECV users wait in the regular or Fastpass line and then are pulled into a different area for loading (Buzz Lightyear, Haunted Mansion and Splash Mountain are examples).

One of the other things that people who don't use wheelchairs don't know is where people with wheelchairs go when they are taken out of the line. They assume those people who 'disappear' from the line are boarding right away, but that is not usually the case.
If they can't board at the regular boarding spot, they are pulled out of the line - usually just before the regular line gets to the boarding area (so they have already waited as long as everyone that got in the line the same time as they did).
For example, at Buzz Lightyear, the 'pull off point' is after you have gone thru the room with the large Buzz Lightyear, near the point where regular line is beginning to enter the actual boarding area. Guests with wheelchairs/ ECVs are pulled out of line at that point and sent to the exit - not to board right away, but to wait. If there are too many people with disabilities already on the attraction, you have to wait for some to get off (for fire safetly and evacuation reasons). Because our DD can't get out of her wheelchair easily, we have to wait extra for a special car that the wheelchair can be loaded on. We usually see the people who were right ahead of us in line getting off after riding while we are still waiting to board. In some rides, boarding at the accessible area means you miss part of the attraction; for example, at Haunted Mansion, you miss the entire 'stretching room' part of the attraction.

The Safari at AK is notorious for extra waits for people with disabilities. Our longest wait there was an EXTRA 40 minutes at a time when the regular line was walk on and Safari Trams were pulling out partially loaded because people were not walking up fast enough to fill them.

Spaceship Earth is a ride with a handicapped entrance, but during times when other passengers are able to walk right on, our wait is usually 20-30 minutes. From what I have seen, the boarding and unload area has not been changed in the rehab that is going on, so I see no reason to think this will change.

AK and the Studio were built with what are called 'Mainstream Lines'. These are lines where the regular line is wheelchair/ECV accessible and a person using a wheelchair or ECV waits in the same line with everyone else. MK and Epcot have been updated with Mainstream lines as attractions were added or renovated as much as possible.

Here's what it says in the official WDW Guidebook for Guests with Disabilities about Mainstream Lines and the list of attractions with Mainstream Queues:
As you can see, most of the lines are Mainstream Queues:

Magic Kingdom® Park
Ariel's Grotto
Astro Orbiter
Buzz Lightyear's Space Ranger Spin
Donald's Boat
Judge's Tent
Mickey's Country House
Mickey's PhilharMagic
Mike Fink Keelboats (seasonal)
Minnie's Country House
Pirates of the Caribbean
Space Mountain®
Splash Mountain®
Stitch's Great Escape!™
The Barnstormer at Goofy's Wiseacres Farm
"The Enchanted Tiki Room Under New Management"
The Hall of Presidents
The Magic Carpets of Aladdin
The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh
The Laugh Floor
Tomorrowland® Indy Speedway
Toontown Hall of Fame
Walt Disney's Carousel of Progress (seasonal)

Epcot®
FUTURE WORLD
Imagination!: All Attractions
Innoventions East
Innoventions West
Mission: SPACE
Test Track
The Living Seas: All Attractions
The Land: All Attractions (including Soarin')
Universe of Energy: "Ellen's Energy Adventure"

WORLD SHOWCASE
China: "Reflections of China"
France: "Impressions de France"
FriendShip Boats
Norway: Maelstrom
The American Adventure: "The American Adventure"

Disney-MGM Studios
Disney-MGM Studios Backlot Tour
Fantasmic!
Lights, Motors, Action!™ Extreme Stunt Show
Muppet*Vision 3D
Playhouse Disney - Live On Stage!
Rock 'n' Roller Coaster® Starring Aerosmith
Sounds Dangerous - Starring Drew Carey
Star Tours
The Great Movie Ride
The Magic of Disney Animation
"The Twilight Zone Tower of Terror™"
Voyage of the Little Mermaid
Walt Disney: One Man's Dream

Disney's Animal Kingdom® Theme Park
Caravan Stage: "Flights of Wonder"
DINOSAUR
Grandmother Willow's Grove: "Pocahontas and Her forest friends"
It's Tough To Be A Bug
Kali River Rapids
Expedition Everest
Kilimanjaro Safaris
Lion King Theater: "Festival of the Lion King"
Maharajah Jungle Trek
Primeval Whirl
Finding Nemo
The Boneyard
TriceraTop Spin


And, some attractions have limited number of spots for wheelchairs. We have already shown up for shows where there was still room for ambulatory people, but the wheelchair spots were already filled for that show and we had to wait for the next one. These are some we've had that problem with in the last 2 trips:

• Voyage of the Little Mermaid, where we had Fastpasses, but still had to wait for the next show
• Tiki Birds, which we could not see on our last trip
• ITTBAB, where the CMs were practically begging people to come into the queue because there was no wait in the standby line.
• American Adventure

I'd invite anyone who thinks it's so easy and there is so much special treatment to spend a day using a wheelchair or ECV and then see what you think.
Or, you could follow us on our next trip. Be prepared for up to 45 minutes for a simple bathroom stop though. We usually have to wait for the handicapped stall or Companion Restroom and then I have to lift DD in and out of her wheelchair.