Seeking Estate Settlement Advice

[Ciao Mickey]

....and if her Father wanted her to have the guns, he would have reflected that in his will. And if the money held in a joint accounts with Lottie's name as co-owner is most likely held "Joint with Rights of Survivorship" which means it is Lottie's money outside of the estate and NOT all his money. It became hers too the second he deposited it into their joint account. That is what joint means, legally.

As I said, it is pretty impossible for people to view this matters without emotion. On one hand you are recommending that she get over to that house and get "her guns" immediately even though they are a part of the estate and not hers. They are not hers though, right now they appear to belong to the estate and if they are to become hers, it needs to be through the estate settlement proceedings. But then you turn right around and insist that the life insurance be handled strictly by law alone.

All too often what I see is "Apply legalities strictly when it matches my wishes but otherwise let me tell you what my Father said to me 12 years ago........"

OP - have an impartial attorney to mediate. It is only fair to everybody.

You are correct, her father should have listed the guns in the will. But as she stated, her father told the step-mother what was to go to her unless you don't believe what the OP has stated.

That doesn't change the fact that the insurance money is hers and hers alone.

 

[RitaE]

You are correct, her father should have listed the guns in the will. But as she stated, her father told the step-mother what was to go to her unless you don't believe what the OP has stated.

That doesn't change the fact that the insurance money is hers and hers alone.

I neither believe or dis-believe her. It doesn't matter. I'm saying that if the guns are legally part of the estate, then they need to be appraised and valued and then "bought out" of the estate just like the cars, house, and other assets that are not specifically addressed. It isn't fair or legal otherwise.

 

[crashbb]

I neither believe or dis-believe her. It doesn't matter. I'm saying that if the guns are legally part of the estate, then they need to be appraised and valued and then "bought out" of the estate just like the cars, house, and other assets that are not specifically addressed. It isn't fair or legal otherwise.

I fully agree.

OP, I'm sorry you are dealing with this, but getting the advice of a lawyer (before removing any of the estate) is definitely the way to go.

 

[IDoDis]

OP, I'm so sorry for your loss and sorry you are dealing with this. You sound like a reasonable person and so does Lottie. You do need a lawyer though. Don't try to handle this on your own.

When my DH's father passed away, we went through a MESS with his will and with the 3rd wife who was married to DH's dad for 13 years. First of all, we live in a community property state, so no matter what the will said, things still had to be divided based on community property laws here which meant that the spouse gets half of everything. There was no itemization in the will with the exception of the house which was left to the 3rd wife (along with a nice pension and some life insurance). The will stated that the "rest residual, and remainder" went to my DH. Well, the 3rd wife hid and sold money and goods and put 24,000 miles on a truck that my deceased FIL said he wanted DH to have (the wife knew this and we actually had to buy the truck from her because the law said she got 1/2of everything else). We also had to split the stock money that belonged to my FIL and then had to use part of that money to pay all of the attorney fees & to buy the truck back from the 3rd wife.

There was also a HUGE copy/paste error in the will which lead to 3 years of hearings in probate court and a legal malpractice lawsuit against the attorney who wrote the will. In the end, DH didn't get anything he was supposed to get in the will except for 1/2 of the stock (after 3 years in probate court and 17K in attorney's fees).

After this we had several years dealing with the legal malpractice. DH won a huge amount after a week-long jury trial, but then the attorney he sued filed bankruptcy (she had let her malpractice insurance lapse) and DH ended up with nothing. The whole process from the time DH's dad died through probate and the civil trial took 7 years!

My FIL wanted DH to have things including money for his kids to go to college, but the 3rd wife was greedy and kept everything (over 500K) due to the copy/paste error in the will. Now bill collectors call our house from time to time looking for her so she's probably wasted all of that money.

As far as your end goes, if you are not in a community property law state, then the will can be followed as written. Just remember though that even if the will is written the way it was, it may not be able to be followed if the rules of your state say so.

As far as the guns & other collections, those need to be put back into the estate before you divide it up. It's not right to take out certain things and then say, "We'll now divide the rest." Half is half. Yes, your dad wanted you to have those things and Lottie has agreed to give them to you, but they need to be included in your half. That's the law.

Good luck with everything!

 

[CF'er]

I can see how the ins money is the OP's alone free and clear. How can you begrudge the widow getting his pension and SS? It's her right as surviving spouse and if she weren't in the picture OP wouldn't be able to get them. To say she is getting her's by listing SS and pension doesn't seem right to me.

 

[JoiseyMom]

OP, your father didn't put the guns or coins in the will because he told you and his wife that they were YOURS. Take them all out of the house. You are doing nothing wrong. There is more then enough inthe estate to take care of your step mother. Your dad made sure she had his pension then add social security and she is fine.

 

[DMRick]

Who is begrudging her that? I didn't see the OP say that at all. The widow certainly deserves what was left her..half of the estate, as well as the pension and SS.

I can see how the ins money is the OP's alone free and clear. How can you begrudge the widow getting his pension and SS? It's her right as surviving spouse and if she weren't in the picture OP wouldn't be able to get them. To say she is getting her's by listing SS and pension doesn't seem right to me.

 

[RitaE]

OP, your father didn't put the guns or coins in the will because he told you and his wife that they were YOURS. Take them all out of the house. You are doing nothing wrong. There is more then enough inthe estate to take care of your step mother. Your dad made sure she had his pension then add social security and she is fine.

Actually if they are legally a part of the estate - and a written will nearly always takes precedence over spoken intent - then just taking them without a proper appraisal and accounting to the estate is most certainly doing something wrong. She could certainly take them and have them appraised and then keep them at her house. But if they are part of the estate then the value remains a part of the estate and the co-beneficiary of the estate is entitled to 50% of their value. Just taking them is stealing from the estate and it is a crime as well as a failure to carry out the fiduciary responsibility toward the estate. I have no idea how much the guns, coins etc are worth - but it could very well be a material amount which could come back to negatively effect the OP if she doesn't follow proper procedure.

The only way they are the OPs (as in their were YOURS) is if the Father took legal steps to transfer the ownership to his daughter's name.

 

[DebbieB]

I agree that the guns & coins have to be accounted for as part of the estate. Just like the OP would be entitled to half of the value of the house where the wife lives, the wife would be entitled to half of the value of the guns & coins even though the OP takes them.

 

[Lucky Bug]

Yoo Hoo! I am talking to a lawyer in the morning folks. I have done nothing other than bring some things to my house. The will said that I was welcome to remove what was mine from the house. The safe deposit box, where the coin collection was stored had my father's name and my name only on it because the contents of the box was largely meant for me when he passed.

The insurance polices were held in the safe deposit box. The only other things in there were a bunch of meaningless outdated paperwork, my deceased grandfather's wallet (with nothing of value in it, but obviously, Daddy couldn't let it go), a Masonic ring, a couple of shares of stock, a couple of savings bonds, his military discharge papers, and a few cards that my mother had sent to him when they were dating in the early 60's.

I plan on including the Masonic ring from the safe deposit box in the estate. The stock actually grew over time to many shares, but due to the fact that the dividend checks were never cashed, a few years ago the dividend checks started to be turned over to the state and a few years after that, the stock was turned over too. I have already requested a claim form be sent to the house there for us to fill out to get the stock back and then it will be added to the estate. I also checked the status on the bonds and they have already exceeded their value and are still actively earning interest. We will be cashing those out and adding the value to the estate.

The coin collection was stored for safety purposes in the safe deposit box. I had no idea what all was in there. I was very surprised to see the size of the collection. I had to have 2 bank employees help me out of the bank with the contents of the box because all of those coins were very heavy. I had not seen how much the collection had grown since my paternal grandfather passed he had held a large number of coins in a safe deposit box under his and Daddy's names with the instructions to use the coins for my college expenses or save them for when I was older. I have gone through the collection and sorted out the "junk coins" that are old, but not necessarily worth anything, even in melt value. After I talk with the lawyer tomorrow morning, I will know if it will be ok to go ahead and cash out the "junk" and then on Saturday morning, I have an appointment to have the rest of the collection appraised. I doubt that it's worth over $3,000 total, but there is a lot of old silver in there, so I might be surprised. I don't really want to sell it off. I would prefer to hold onto it for a while longer. If the lawyer says that, it has to go into the estate, so be it, but it was supposed to be mine. Again, most of it was gifted to me from my maternal & paternal grandfathers and my parents.

As for the guns, me getting them is not about the value of the guns, it's about finding responsible owners for the guns. If I have to turn over the proceeds from their sale to the estate, I am ok with that. I don't really need a lot of rifles and automatic weaponry. I just want to make sure that they don't end up in irresponsible hands and end up killing someone. That would break my heart.

I would have removed more stuff from the house before I left, but honestly, there is so much stuff in the house, that I could not get to the pieces of furniture that my stuff is being stored in, so I told Lottie that if she will work on making a path, I will get the stuff out on the next trip. She understood and was fine with that.

I don't begrudge Lottie the pension or the SS. I don't begrudge her 1/2 of the estate. I don't begrudge her the 3rd ins policy if it turns out that Daddy did change the beneficiary on that one policy. I am not trying to be an evil person in all of this. I do care about Lottie, but I am not thrilled with the idea of being a half-way landlord. I am not thrilled with potentially having to battle her kids for a house that they never lived in and was paid for by my father, not their mother. I don't really want this to drag on for ages. I don't want this to turn into a mega-meltdown estate settlement deal. I just want this to be settled as quickly, equitably, and peacefully as possible in accordance with his wishes.

 

[bumbershoot]

I would claim the life insurance money and leave the rest for Lottie. Much easier and I doubt your father would want his wife kicked out of their house.

He should have left the house free and clear to her, then.

Don't be stupid and give what your father wanted you to have to her and her kids. That is not what he wanted you to do or else he would have written a different will. ....

AND ignore the people who tell you to split the insurance money--that is yours and yours alone and what your father wanted to give to you or else he would have changed the policy.

I agree.


Glad you see that the gun collection might have to be sold, etc. But the other collections sound like they were yours, just being kept at his house. From what I can tell, this is how things happen in many families. Didn't happen in mine b/c my mom moved cross country 1 week after I left for college, so I didn't get to use her house as extra storage. But my husband had things that were his at his mom's place.



Gotta say I think you'll be in a better position, thanks to the way he worded his will, than I will be. When my mom and stepdad were married, they made sure all 4 kids (all grown; two kids from each person) knew that when one died all the money would go to the other spouse. Then when that spouse died, it would be split in 4.

Sounds great.

Except for when my stepdad got married after my mom died. And she has 2 kids. And he has NOT shared how that's going to play out when he dies. Will I ever get to see ANY of my mom's money (which was only from 13 years of not having to scrape by for money, but still, it was hers and I know she would have wanted us to get it)? Sadly, I simply cannot trust my stepfather in any way, shape, or form, and I trust his wife even less.

So at least you've got that half, as well as the insurance; not just a long-term wondering if *anything* of his will make it to you someday.


Regardless of money and possessions, though...having a parent die is just rotten (I learned from my friend whose dad was extremely wealthy, and none of his 6 kids *had to* work ever again after dad died, that money doesn't make grieving any easier), and I"m really really sorry for your loss.

 

[Disney Doll]

The items that the OP showed as the buy out prices (what either could buy out the other for) actually come to $156,900. So you think the op should just give all of that to Lottie, and be happy with the $75,000?

I say sell everything, keep the $75,000 her dad left to her individually, and she ends up with half of everything else..which is about $78,000 and which fulfills what her dad wrote in his will. Lottie ends up with the pension, social security and $78,000. Sounds like just about enough for Lottie to buy you out of the house. Why would it be any different, if that's what the dad put in his will? Sounds like for 18 years of marriage, Lottie makes out very well.

I was going by what the OP posted as the total of all the tiems she listed. I did not check her math. The OP posted that her list came to 78K.

OP, I agree with you that whatever you do, you need to divest yourself of the house if Lottie is to stay there.

 

[DMRick]

She clearly stated that was the buy out amount..if either wanted to buy the other out. Buy out between two people would be half the total value. There was nothing wrong with her math.

I was going by what the OP posted as the total of all the tiems she listed. I did not check her math. The OP posted that her list came to 78K.

OP, I agree with you that whatever you do, you need to divest yourself of the house if Lottie is to stay there.

 

[Disney Doll]

OK I guess I misunderstood.
Thank you for the clarification.
OP, perhaos DMRick is a better person to assist you.

 

[KingK12]

Sorry for your loss!

 

[DMRick]

Why would you say that? I read what she wrote, and gave advice based on what she wrote, as did others. I'm not a lawyer, but I am giving my opinion, just like you are, and many others are. It's my opinion, we all have one, and it doesn't make one of us better than the other LOL.

OK I guess I misunderstood.
Thank you for the clarification.
OP, perhaos DMRick is a better person to assist you.

 

[yoopermom]

My DH is an avid gun collector, and he said to warn you to beware of who offers you what when it comes to buying them. Lots of people prey on widows/children who aren't into guns themselves, and don't understand the true worth of them. Get multiple offers, if at all possible, from reputable sources, and keep them safely locked up (and insured, if possible) in the meanwhile.

(Not looking to buy them from you, promise! Just don't want to see you get taken...)

As a child whose divorced parents are both remarried, I shudder at the thought of what you're going through, and hope for the best for you.

Terri

 

[Disney Doll]

Why would you say that? I read what she wrote, and gave advice based on what she wrote, as did others. I'm not a lawyer, but I am giving my opinion, just like you are, and many others are. It's my opinion, we all have one, and it doesn't make one of us better than the other LOL.

I wasn't being snarky, You understood what she said and meant and I didn't, so I thought you were a better person to advise her.

Geez...

 

[Lucky Bug]

So, according the the lawyer, I was totally ok to remove the coin collection, the few personal items, and the stamp collection from the house, because we (Lottie and I) agreed that they were my possesions. He also 100% said that the life insurance is mine and not part of the estate. He said that the estate value is far below what is considered taxable at the state and federal level and that there should be nothing to worry with in that respect.

He agreed that it was a waste to retitle and redeed everything right now and that was not good advice to begin with. He also said that I should have been given a copy of the will, which I wasn't. He was so sweet, didn't charge me a dime and he went the extra mile and emailed me a copy of the will, the probate paperwork, and his own personally created estate administration 101 handbook.

He presented some ideas for how Lottie can remain in the house and pay me off. I am feeling a whole lot better about this after speaking with him. He didn't understand the rush that the other lawyer was putting on us to get things done. We have 120 days, roughly, before we "have to" really do anything else. It will take that long to get any creditors to respond to the published requests for bills.

Overall, I am so very glad that I spoke with him. I am not going to retain his services just yet. He agreed that once he became officially involved this was more than likely going to turn very nasty. He encouraged me to try to reason with her as come to as many agreements as possible. He also said to get documentation before removing the guns from the home, since they are 100% Daddy's property and that I should cover myself with something signed by Lottie saying that she agreed to give them to me.

Anyway, story over, for now. Thanks again.

 

[Pixie Dust for Me!]

Dear Lucky Bug,

My deepest condolences on your loss.

I do not intend this to sound snarky or mean. Your inheritance is just that...yours. Please do not pay your partners debts with it. Please do pay yours and then care for your child in any way you deem appropriate. I say this as my husband and his brothers lost their parents a few years back. They were lucky as most everything was in joint names with Pay on Death designations or were deeded with the 3 boys names or were in a trust.

One of my BILs is going into a divorce situation and the inheritance funds that he invested in the home he owns with his wife are now joint property, even though the 3 daughters-in-law were specifically left out of the will and out of the ownership issues. Now, my BIL who has invested major $$ into the home, debt payoffs, etc., to keep my SIL in the style to which she would like to become accostomed, will leave the divorce with very, very little.

Also, while I understand what you mean about Lottie not being able to care for the home and that she should be in assisted living, respectfully, that decision is hers and not yours. Please utter nothing about this to her. Do keep your estate settlement about the division of assets in accordance with the will -- not how she should live.

She, like you, has gone through a trauma of losing her beloved husband. Her whole life is changing and that is very hard. Yes, your life has changed...but her's is changing more. Since she has been gracious in allowing you to take things that are "yours" (but have no deed or title that would evidence that they are "yours"), please show her compassion as well. Expect her children to have claws...they are protecting their mother...but recognize that everything you take out or keep (including life insurance, which is NOT part of the estate) will make their claws more pronounced. Steel yourself. Keep it business-like. I fear, no matter what, you will be cast as the "bad person" in the whole deal -- and for that I am sorry.

Maybe, if she can't buy you out of the home, you can agree to a set period in which she will move. If you go this route, please draw up papers that indicate she owns only 1/2 and that in the event she passes you have the full rights to sell the home and will disburse 1/2 of the proceeds to her estate.

Get a good lawyer...listen religiously to what he/she says. Get a financial planner to make sure you are doing the right things with what you inherit for you and your child. Your partners debts are just that -- your partner's debts. Please do not assume responsibility for them.

All the best to you,

Karen