School - Not sure what to do

[DebIreland]

Oh my goodness, I just want to say I really feel for you and I can imagine it's very stressful. All you're trying to do is share a wonderful holiday with your family, a very positive thing and something that brings families closer together.

We're going in October too - my boys have one week off school and I'm keeping them out of school 3 days prior to their week off and 5 days afterwards. I do feel a bit nervous about telling the principal but, other than some eye-rolling, I think we'll be ok. I kept them out for 5 days last year and he was ok about it, not too pleased, but ok. The boys' school is culturally diverse and lots of children visit relatives abroad regularly so it's certainly not unusual for children to miss school.

Over here (Ireland) I know that once a child has 20 abscences the Department of Education are notified and they initiate an investigation. However, I believe that an explained absence like a holiday would only lead to an investigation if it happened regularly.

If I'm honest, I do feel a bit bad keeping them out for 8 days especially as it will be my 11 year old's last year in primary school but it will be near the start rather than the end of the school year and also, I wouldn't keep him out in secondary school so it's our last chance to get there again without enduring crippling heat (as we also have a 2 year old that makes a difference).

I plan on telling the school on the first day of term - 30th August and I'll have a letter ready for both teachers too then. Honestly, if they say no, or if the rules have tightened up, I'll be stumped....

I hope you can work it out.

 

[jna]

If you got written permission from the school to take the children out, then I dont think they will have a leg to stand on.

Agree entirely. I think though that everyone who is expressing concerns has not been given the green light and booked on the basis of what they have done in the past, or have taken their decision in the light of the prevailing arrangements.

Here are some extracts from the 'holding letter' I received. This is from a school in Hampshire:-

1) There is a possibility that new guidelines will be issued for academic year 2006/07 from the government (DfES) regarding authorisation of holidays during school time.

2) The school reviews its attendance policy in the summer term of each year and this includes authorisation of holidays.

3) .....we cannot prevent a parent taking their child on holiday during school time. Our role is to decide whether or not the absence will be authorised. We always take into consideration the pupil's attendance........

Those expressing their views on this thread are just the tip of a massive iceberg. Should the authorities be seeking to forbid term time holidays, this issue is going to hit the headlines. Thousands of families will be involved. Even though I have little time for those currently managing U.K. PLC there must be one or two who have the common sense to appreciate that if they seek a dramatic move away from what has been the norm for many years, notice must be given. If they succeed in their goal regardless it will be a pyrrhic victory.

 

[Graeme]

We've all heard a lot about schools 'fining' parents who take children out of school but I've yet to hear about anyone actually being fined. I wonder if this is actually possible or even legal

There was a case in the papers within the last few weeks of a LEA taking a mother to court for ignoring the school rule of 'no hols in termtime'. I don't have kids so only paid it passing interest.

Ring the truancy department of your council or your local police School Liaison Officer. They'll be able to tell you what the law says as well as what the local policies are. I can't believe they would investigate and prosecute every case, they must have a cut off somewhere.

 

[Ang1e]

Just to update - I rang the head today because it's been playing on my mind so much I've given myself a headache!

She was very understanding and said if we went it would be unauthorised and we would have a £50 fine to pay. If on the other hand my husband's employer write a letter stating this as the only time he can have 2 weeks leave she would see if she could authorise it.

I have to say that the £50 is neither here nor there - I just really wanted to go with a clear conscience. As it's a catholic school they have to raise funds themselves for work to be carried out and we have always donated to this monthly. If we don't get the fine then it will be added to our donation.

I feel so much better - but still guilty no pleasing some people

Thanks again for listening.

 

[Giddy Kipper]

She was very understanding and said if we went it would be unauthorised and we would have a £50 fine to pay. If on the other hand my husband's employer write a letter stating this as the only time he can have 2 weeks leave she would see if she could authorise it.

Thats great!!!..nothing is worse than worrying

 

[Cochise]

In the letter to the school last year we advised them of the fact we would give them work to complete in the holidays. The head/teachers never even bothered to put some thought into this and provided nothing which says alot. We did however make them do a project book with a story for each day on what they did and cut out pics of the parks that day.

I always like to think that if you approach the Head with a reasonable structured position behind your decision and use as much of the school holidays as you can they should be reasonable in return.

 

[kristieuk]

Just to update - I rang the head today because it's been playing on my mind so much I've given myself a headache!

She was very understanding and said if we went it would be unauthorised and we would have a £50 fine to pay. If on the other hand my husband's employer write a letter stating this as the only time he can have 2 weeks leave she would see if she could authorise it.

I have to say that the £50 is neither here nor there - I just really wanted to go with a clear conscience. As it's a catholic school they have to raise funds themselves for work to be carried out and we have always donated to this monthly. If we don't get the fine then it will be added to our donation.

I feel so much better - but still guilty no pleasing some people

Thanks again for listening.

I'm really pleased it has worked out well for you. It's good to see the school is taking a sensible approach.

I think that the government / LEA's have to take a pragmatic approach here. Sometimes it's not about cost, but ability to take time out of work at particular times - imagine if, say all police / doctors / nurses (in addition to teachers) with children had to take leave only in the school holidays - it's probably unworkeable.

For a long time, DF and I have worked at the same (relatively small) firm of solicitors. It has been impossible for us to take leave during the school holidays at the same time because so many other staff want to take their leave then (and some have husbands who have shutdown etc), so we have had to stagger our time off in the holidays to spend time with dd, and take our family holiday at quieter times workwise. I'm sure there are many others in a similar position to us. Putting in place blanket bans is unfair and unrealistic imo.

 

[jna]

She was very understanding and said if we went it would be unauthorised and we would have a £50 fine to pay.

This subject is playing on our minds and quite frankly destroying the build up to the event.

This morning I found something on the Hampshire County Council website on their "Code of Conduct for issuing Penalty Notices in respect of Unauthorised Absence from School" page. An extract is as follows:-

Circumstances When A Penalty Notice May Be Issued

3.1 Penalty Notices can only be issued in cases where a pupil of compulsory school age has been absent and the absence has not been authorised by the school or where the pupil has persistently arrived late after the register has been closed. The level of absence that is necessary before a Penalty Notice can be issued is 20 or more half day sessions ie 10 school days, of unauthorised absence during any 10 week school period.

3.2 A Penalty Notice may be issued to each parent liable for the offence or offences.

3.3 Penalty Notices are intended to be used in tackling parentally condoned
absence where it is reasonable to expect that the parent can ensure the child's regular attendance but s/he is not willing to take responsibility for doing so e.g. where a parent is not cooperating with advice or support offered to help improve his or her child's attendance. Furthermore, in accordance with Department for Education and Skills (DfES) guidance, they should be used only when they are likely to secure an improvement in the child's future attendance.

So, firstly, unless you are seeking ten days absence (which we are as we are going for three weeks) the Penalty of £50 for each parent cannot be demanded. In addition, you would have to fit sub section 3.3, which I am sure you don't. Check your local authority's regulations.

The question still stands, i.e. are the rules changing? The principle still therefore stands, i.e. parents ought to be allowed prior notification of a change. I don't think our school will give us authorised leave, even though my daughter recently received recognition for good attendance. The management knows only black and white. Unless the guidelines remain unchanged my only hope of avoiding a Penalty Notice is if they take one of their five inset days on one side or the other of the autumn half term, which they have regularly done in the past.

The other option we have, (and I am currently in touch with Virgin, two hotels, Discovery Cove, and an airport car park, to see what the score is with losses of deposits) is to walk away and let the authorities run roughshod over plans going back to May last year and our booking last July. What a world we live in.

 

[mark&sue]

I read it as £50 each unauthorised absence. This will £50 for a morning absence and £50 for an afternoon absence. For our say seven days I make this £700.

I am still waiting a response from our DDs school it feels like for ever but has only been since March 24th. I hope I get a reply before the school shuts for Easter.

Good luck everyone else.


Susan

 

[patdavies]

Just to update - I rang the head today because it's been playing on my mind so much I've given myself a headache!

She was very understanding and said if we went it would be unauthorised and we would have a £50 fine to pay. If on the other hand my husband's employer write a letter stating this as the only time he can have 2 weeks leave she would see if she could authorise it.

This is just bluff and bluster.

ONLY a headteacher may authorise absence. It cannot be authorised or otherwise by either the Governors or LA. They may offer advice to the Head, but ultimately the decision is hers and hers alone.


Any Head who says that "The LA won't allow it" is simply lying

 

[jna]

I read it as £50 each unauthorised absence. This will £50 for a morning absence and £50 for an afternoon absence.

I did wonder about that. The site I mentioned isn't clear on that point, but I guess you’re right.

Having said that these penalty notices are clearly aimed as a deterrent to persistent and poor time keeping and truancy. People on this forum using the authorised allowance for a holiday when their child or children are punctual and enjoy regular attendance ought not to get the same punishment. As Kristie said in a previous posting, “in 10 or 15 years time when your children go to apply for university or jobs, is it really going to make any difference?”

Anyway, I think we will all now have to wait to see what transpires over the next couple of months. I can’t see what else can be said at the moment.

Should push come to shove however, I’ve no intention of paying a fine so I will pull out. For those who do pay, are you sure you are not putting yourselves in the position of then having a criminal record? Probably not seen as such, but think about future WDW trips and how fussy the U.S.A. is about personal records. Anybody got any thoughts or knowledge on this point? I do hope I am overstating the issue.

In closing, to date I have established that if I have to cancel and do not attempt to or cannot move dates I will lose £591 in lost deposits with Virgin and a hotel, with another hotel yet to respond. Having actually handed over the money in the form of a 25% deposit I could stand to lose another £224.

Whatever happened to the freedom that this country used to enjoy?

 

[wideeyes]

I THINK it is the school who gives the fine..however if someone refused to pay would be taken to court..

 

[Ang1e]

This is what I read on our LEA site - I take it as £50 for the whole trip which was confirmed by the Head.

When will a Penalty Notice be issued?

Leicester Education Authority considers regular attendance so important that Penalty Notices may, and usually will, be issued :-

(i) to a parent whose child is of compulsory school age and has 20 or more unauthorised absences out of 120 school sessions (this is the equivalent of 10 school days in any 12 school week period)

(ii) where a parent takes their child on holiday during term time and has
- not informed the school
OR
- permission is refused by the school
OR
- the child does not return on the agreed date

What is the Penalty?

£50 if paid in full within 28 days
£100 if paid in full after 28 days but within 42 days

Note: If not fully paid within 42 days and there is no reason to withdraw the Notice the LEA has no option but to prosecute a parent in the Magistrates’ Court for failing to ensure regular school attendance.

A fine of up to £2,500 or a community penalty could be imposed together with a Parenting Order.

 

[jna]

Just been informed that the other deposit of £224 will not be refunded so if we are forced into a corner there is £815 at stake!

As I said, I refuse to pay a fine, thus the principle is the only thing at stake. Perhaps that's the wrong attitude.

This sitution has totally ruined the whole run up to this holiday. Damn the government, and damn the parents who discourage their children from attending school regularly and spoiling things for law abiding citizens.

I'm am losing rational thinking particularly when my school has knowingly used £600 of cash collected by children for a specific activity that never took place in order to balance their badly managed accounts.

I will say no more on this thread. The whole family is fed up.

 

[mark&sue]

I am still waiting for my reply. NOTHING TODAY.

I think I am becoming really obsessive about this now. This too is spoiling our trip as others have said. I know I for one will not do it again. I have told my DD she has to leave school at 16 or not come with us to WDW if she stays on at school!!!!

I have been a little re-assured about the £50 being for the whole time but wouldn't that just encourage a family to take a child for say two weeks rather than two days!!!

It seems each borough has different policies. Our boroughs is really unclear on whether £50 is for a period or each absence.

Good luck once again.


Susan

 

[Ang1e]

Good luck Susan - i am feeling your pain

Have you thought about giving the school a ring?

Angie

 

[mark&sue]

Thanks Angie

I am too nervous to ring them at the moment. I thought I would wait until say, mid May. I was under the impression that the council had a policy to at least acknowlege correspondence but maybe schools don't come under this policy? It could be a good sign as they could be looking into Kirsty's records to check her sickness etc.

I went straight to my e:mails and nothing today and the school breaks up tomorrow and we are leaving straight after school to catch a plane to Amsterdam so will try to forget until next term.

Thanks again everyone for your support.


Susan

 

[AndRu]

My dear wife works as an attendance officer at a comprehensive school. Consequently, any future trips we make to the USA will have to be during school holidays incurring the extra cost. But hey ho, that's the price you pay for having a job where she can look after our three children instead of putting them in care during holiday periods.

In her role as attendance officer she knows who the regular truants are. She has to phone the parents and ask why the child isn't in school (again) and ask if they can be sent back ASAP. There is, as I suspect there is in most schools, a "hard core" element of truancy. Ones that bunk off on a regular basis or don't turn up at all. My wife can even reel off the phone numbers as she dials them so often. Do these parents get threatened with fines? Nope. The latest scheme is to reward the truants each time they do stay in class for a whole day.

It vexes me that parents who's children have had good, posssibly excellent, attendance are threatened with fines etc when they want to take their offspring on a holiday. I fully understand the need for a child to be educated and freely admit that we were wrong in 2003 when our kids missed the first 9 days of term after visiting Orlando. It took my youngest son a long time to catch up - and we still feel guilty about that. It just doesn't seem fair that persistant offenders are rewarded and the rest of us get clobbered

I hope and pray that any parent / guardian who is caught in this trap can find an amicable solution with their school. Each case should be dealt with on merit and as long as parents don't do this on a regular basis (if they can afford to they should go in the main holidays anyway!) and common sense prevails.

I have my fingers crossed for you.

 

[jdybnsn]

Couldn't agree more with you AndRu !!!


Being self employed, and having staff that need/want to take time off in school holidays, it is almost impossible for us to take all of OUR holidays off in the school hols.

We are very lucky never to have been refused time by the school (normally around 7 days off but this year it has been more) ....could it be that the school has a truancy rate that is better than the national average....I'm sure that this has alot to do with it....I have never even been asked for reasons for time off in the term time, and no contact has been made with the school other than hand a permission slip with our intended dates in (and we never hear another word !).

It would therefore seem that this may be something akin to a 'postcode lottery'.....how unfair !!!


I think the schools are underpressure (quite rightly) to reduce the truancy rates but refusing a few days holiday for those regular attenders is not addressing the core issue ...once again we are back to performance by statistics.....which is not always a true picture !

Hope you all get the permission you need - I have to say I'm afraid I would go regardless as long I wasn't putting my childrens' education at risk (we always take school work with us).

 

[pineapple123]

Hi having read the previous info, I would like to say that I am also in the same situation having booked 2 weeks holiday (in may 2005) for my 2 children for 2 weeks hols in orlando this Oct.
When i booked my holiday I never had any real concerns that the school would not allow autherised absence as my children have good attendence records and are doing really well in school.
Last Oct I took them out for 1 week holiday (that I won ) the schools were ok until my DD school telephoned me in March to ask about her poor attendence record because she had missed 5 days from school I asked why was it a problem I had autherised leave from school however it turns out that even though it has been autherised by the school it is still classed as unautherised according to local education dept and I would probably get turned down if I requested autherised absence for another holiday( which I havn't done yet) I also have looked at changing the holiday dates but for easter/summer 2007 price is nearly double - if even poss to get time off work.
When children go back to school will request the time off from school I am not worring about it as I do not want it to spoil the excitment of our holiday and feel we are being penalized for schools poor overall attendence record. Like everyone I want the best for my children and this does include a good education but also life experience and a happy family bond, on this bases I will still take my children out with or without autherisation.