School holidays and fines

[TinkTatoo]

This is a really interesting thread. We have two children both in special education and I wouldn't dream of letting them miss school. Plus the summer holidays here are 9 weeks long so we need our Florida trip to break this up.

I wondered if this new proposal for shorter more frequent holidays will affect your decisions. If I understand it correctly the terms will be broken up by two week breaks throughout the year.

So - would you use these holidays or still take your kids out of school??

 

[rob@rar.org.uk]

If the main reason for taking kids out of school is price, I don't think changing the pattern of the school year will not have any effect. If there were a two-week break in October instead of the current week perhaps more people would consider taking a holiday at that time of year. This would invariably lead to higher prices.

The tour operators don't charge high prices during school holidays, they charge high prices during times of peak demand. This is a simple fact - high demand equals high prices. This affects all aspects of our lives not just the holiday market.


florry wrote:

You are actually allowed 2 weeks in any school year

This isn't quite correct. Parents have no automatic entitlement to authorised absence from their children's school for family holidays. As Deb quoted below, schools (not parents) have the discretion to grant up to 10 days authorised absence for family holidays. The school is not obliged to say yes to any request from parents.

As for the £100 fine that has mentioned, this was introduced to deter the families of persistent truants. It was never intended to be used for parents who take their children out of school for a fortnight's holiday, whether that time was authorised or not. I can't imagine a situation in which a school/local authority would issue a fine against a family that apart from a couple of weeks out of school for a once-in-a-lifetime had a good attendance record.

Regards

Rob

 

[duchy]

I'm taking mine out for two weeks in January.
I've already discussed it with the SENCO at my son's school. He said "Do you want the official response or the real world one?"
The schools know why parents do it and legally cannot refuse without very good reason for up to two weeks.
My son will be in year eight and it'll probably be the last year I can justify taking him out as GCSEs will be looming after that.
I've made it clear to my son that he will be expected to make the work missed up but that isn't too daunting as he has a full week back at school and then half term so will do the catch up stuff then.
I'd certainly prefer to take him during school holidays but basic economics come into play. Two flights plus two weeks at Pop Century are costing £700 for the two of us in January (fantastic price due to some creative manipulation of a deal) . There is no way on earth I'd get even near that price in school holiday time.

 

[rob@rar.org.uk]

Originally posted by duchy
The schools know why parents do it and legally cannot refuse without very good reason for up to two weeks.

That's not right. There is no law which says that parents can demand leave of absence for family holidays. It is up to the school whether to grant permission for leave of absence or not, and normally the school has authority to grant up to 10 (school) days in any one school year although more leave can be granted in exceptional circumstances. So a school CAN refuse to grant leave of absence if it wants. Most schools don't refuse, although many discourage families from taking leave of absence during term time.

Having said all this, if a school does refuse leave of absence there is nothing they can do to enforce your child's attendance at school. If leave of absence is not granted but you still take your child out of school, it will be recorded as unauthorised absence. Quite frankly this is more of a problem for the school than the child, as one aspect of a school's performance on which they are judged is the number of unauthorised absence days recorded by all pupils. If this number is higher than schools in similar circumstances the headteacher/governors will have to answer why it is so poor at keeping its pupils in school.

Regards

Rob

 

[duchy]

According to a teacher friend (whom I would assume to know what he is talking about-but yes-it's second hand) there has never been a test case challenging the right of parents taking children out of school-nor is there likely to be. The thinking is that "good reason" is so subjective that a court would not rule in favour of a school.
I used to work in travel so I'm aware of the huge differences in term-time v school holiday prices. It's somewhat distasteful the way on transatlantic routes October seems to be drifting into a higher price band than in past years.

 

[rob@rar.org.uk]

Originally posted by duchy
According to a teacher friend (whom I would assume to know what he is talking about-but yes-it's second hand) there has never been a test case challenging the right of parents taking children out of school-nor is there likely to be.

I hate to keep banging on about this, but it is a false assumption that parents have a legal right to take their children out of school for family holidays. I'm afraid your teacher friend is wrong. This is the legal basis for what I'm saying:

Education (Schools and Further Education) Regulations 1981; Regulation 12.
Contained within this regulation, there is a discretionary power for leave to be granted for the purpose of an annual family holiday or an annual holiday during term time. Such permission is granted in accordance with arrangements made by the governing body of the school. Only in exceptional circumstances may the amount of leave granted exceed (in total) more than two weeks in any year. No parent can demand leave of absence for the purposes of a holiday as of right.

The above definition is further refined and clarified by the:

Education (Pupil Registration) Regulations 1995
Section 8 (1) “Leave of absence may only be granted by a person authorised in that behalf by the proprietor of the school”

Section 8 (3) “Subject to paragraph (4), on application made by the parent with whom the pupil normally resides, a pupil may be granted leave of absence from the school to enable him/her to go away on holiday”

Section 8 (4) “Save in exceptional circumstances, a pupil shall not in pursuance of paragraph (3) be granted more than ten school days leave in any school year”

The above regulations clearly make the point that the headteacher has the final decision as to whether to authorise the holiday or not. If any parent, here on DIS or elsewhere, goes into a school and demands their right to leave of absence so their child can have a family holiday during term time they should be aware that no such right exists, and it is up to the school whether they grant leave of absence. If they do not grant leave of absence there is no appeal to a higher authority.

If leave of absence is not granted (which will only happen in a minority of schools) it is then up to the parent to decide whether to take their child on holiday anyway, with their child's absence being recorded as unauthorised. As I said previously, having up to 10 days unauthorised absence on your child's record is not a major problem.

Regards

Rob

 

[signtalker]

Thanks for that Info Rob, I too work in education myself, and I think the majority of us do go down the right channels for taking children out of school for holidays.

Its always interesting to know the facts as well

 

[Byrne family]

OK, I understand what you are all saying. My situation at the moment is that I have authorised leave for my DD's aged 8 & 10 but my son attends nursey at the first school (different headmistress). she has made it very clear at meetings and on the newsletters that more than 10 days leave will not be granted under any circumstances. We need 14 days. Do I ask her anyway knowing she will say no or do I just tell her my son will be leaving the nursery at half term but will return in sept for full time school. I feel that she is taking out her frustration with unauthorised leave on the nursery kids, as if he was attending full time he would not lose his place. Now because of this I am considering sending him to a different full time school in sept. Surely it's less disruptive to his education to have this holiday whilst at nursery than when he is in full time school.


Fiona

 

[florry]

Tricky one ! especially if, like here in St Albans, schools are very difficult to get into. You may well end up being allocated a school miles away from where you live.

I'm sure that if you tell them that it is already booked and that your DS will benefit from such an experience, they will grant you the leave.

If on the other hand they say no... send in a sick note !!!


Good Luck

 

[Beth__WDW23/6/02]

We was told by Chelsea's Headteacher, she was allowed 10days off which is correct but in her discretion she would allow 14days.
The other 14 days would have to go to "The educational welfare officer"......

So I agree it is only 10days they are legally allowed to take time off for, to go on holiday.

I'm glad that Chelsea is still 4, otherwise we wouldnt be going for 4weeks...this shall be our last holiday now, unless, we book in summer holidays...Ummm....

 

[SidB]

We've just returned from a 3 week holiday in Florida. Before going we informed the schools, one a junior, the other a secondary. the junior school has informed us that this will be kept on record as unauthorised absence. The secondary school has not commented. If I was particularly concerned about my childs education I would not have taken them out. During the time that we were away Zoe was moved to the top maths group and Hannah received a headmasters commendation, was in the top 5% and should apply to go to the local Grammar school.

Before we moved my kids went to a "multi-ethnic" school. In the latest Ofsted report it was commented that a large number of kids were taking months off to visit their families in other countries. These and regular truants should be the main target.

Oh, and we asked for homework that we could take with us, and both schools declined.

 

[matty624]

Originally posted by wheezie
we took our daughter out of school for 5 days so we had two weeks in feb incorperating the half term week. I wrote to the school in good time and received a letter stating that they didnt agree to any time out of school for holidays and that they would be marking her days out of school during that time as unauthorised absence.

When we went to the parents evening recently all the teachers we saw made such a big deal of it. the maths teacher said that she had missed 10 (!!!) homeworks during that time she was away (which I cannot beleive, she doesnt even have that many classes in five days!!).

I wouldnt mind but I have never taken her out of senior school at all and when I wrote the letter explaining our situation I explained that we hadnt had a holiday for nearly two years because my husband was made redundant and then did contract work which means you cant take holidays when you choose but have to do holidays between contracts. It made no difference to them. I think it was very unfair and has given her a black mark in an otherwise perfect record.

Unlike teachers, we just didnt have the luxury of taking holiday break in school holiday time.

Wheezie

You're having a laugh aren't you!
'The luxury of taking a holiday break in school holiday time!!!!!
As a deputy head (whose been acting head for the last year) this upsets me a lot. Teachers, and many other school workers, quite literally experience daylight robbery each year for the privilege of going on holiday at prescribed times of the year. Do you think I would chose to go to Florida in August if I had a choice?
That said, I have two small children who are both very bright (ds, 4yrs, starts school in September, can already read). Despite this, I would not dream of taking them out of school for more than a few days in any one year. To take children out for more than two weeks is absolute madness. I know going on holiday is very educational, particularly Disney, but come on... How can a child catch up at least 25 hours work a week when they return?
I find it amazing people are actually complaining that they can't take their own children out of school just when they like.
I personally don't think the government has gone nearly far enough. In my experience, and yes I have granted at least 15 periods of completely unnecessary absence over the last year, the children who are taken out of school during term time are almost always the children who need extra time at school! The brightest children whose parents value education, are almost never taken out...
Ian

 

[onlyholly]

I wouldn't dream of taking my son (11) out of school for any length of time. He has been top of his class since he started and extremely bright - mainly due to hard work and good attendance.

Reading this thread made me look at the other boys in his class and I now realise the ones that take extended holidays or time off during term time, are the ones who are average students or below.

I also think teachers have enough on their plates without having to give extra attention to the children who need to catch up.

If we couldn't afford a holiday to WDW during school breaks then we'd have to go when and where we could afford. My husband also has limited holidays and at odd times so we have to work round that too.

My son's education is more important to us than any holiday and it's only for a very short time in our lives.

As much as I love this site, it surprises me, the number of you who think missing school is ok - some of your excuses are quite selfish.

Holly

 

[wheezie]

I'm sorry this offended you, but if you read it properly, you would understand that I would have loved to be able to take holiday in school holiday time, but was unable to due to my husband having to do contract work.

We were unable to go on a holiday for nearly two years and both my husband and myself were exhausted. A window came up at the end of his contract where we were able to take a week in school holidays and a few days extra which were not. I do not think this is unreasonable, although I know teachers may disagree with me. I wouldn't mind paying the extra to take holiday in school holiday time but didnt have the opportunity, that was my point.

It was not a critisism of teachers but a system that left my daughter with a blemish on her perfect record of attendence because they would not take our circumstances into consideration. She is top or near the top of all her classes by the way.

Wheezie

 

[onlyholly]

(a contractor too) and we never know when/where or how long the next contract will be - but would still not take our son out during term time. Sorry, but his needs are more important than ours.

Holly

 

[duchy]

Guess I'm one of the lucky ones.........my son is in the top five percent academically regardless of the fact that he
1 Loses a week (rarely two-I try to tack them onto school holidays) for family holidays. I don't have the luxury of a husband anymore ,contractor or otherwise, so the only way to afford holidays is to go in termtime.
2 Has Aspergers Syndrome so the classroom enviroment is much harder for him than the "mainstream" kids in his class. (He's the only child in his form statemented for special needs.)

Sorry if you think that makes me a bad parent but what we do works for our family -just as what I'm sure whatever you do works for yours but it's worth remembering all families are different onlyholly. And yes your last post DID offend me. I think to imply that others put their own needs before their children's on the very limited information you have is offensive in the extreme.

(this is the edited toned down version btw !! My original response was worded somewhat more strongly )

 

[matty624]

Originally posted by duchy

Sorry if you think that makes me a bad parent but what we do works for our family -just as what I'm sure whatever you do works for yours but it's worth remembering all families are different onlyholly. And yes your last post DID offend me. I think to imply that others put their own needs before their children's on the very limited information you have is offensive in the extreme.

(this is the edited toned down version btw !! My original response was worded somewhat more strongly )

I think the point is that LEAs and the Government realise what the situation is with regards to families and jobs etc. Which is why everyone has the opportunity to request up to 10 working days absence from school. The fact that some schools refuse to cooperate and deny parents this request, is unfortunately entirely up to them. Personally, I’ve never denied a reasonable request, but that doesn’t mean I think you’re doing the best for your child if you go ahead and take them out. Indeed, I’ve made that plain to all those parents who have requested a holiday form, insisting that before I grant a request that they meet with me and discuss it. It’s amazing how many parents changed their mind before the arranged meeting!
It's not that we think (we being teachers!) you're a bad parent Duchy, you've clearly given it some thought, it's a fact though that many parents do not consider the implications...
Lets not let this degrade into a major fight. Just as long no-one else is under the misconception that teachers have super long holidays, and aren't they lucky... (e.g. most work for 2 weeks + of the long summer break!)
Ian

 

[duchy]

My comments weren't directed to you Ian but to onlyholly. I understand perfectly what you are saying and agree with large chunks of it. However I found onlyholly's comment " Sorry, but his needs are more important than ours." offensive. I do understand that she has her own views but to imply that wheezie was uncaring and selfish because she has differing views I find to be unacceptable. To quote onlyholly again "As much as I love this site, it surprises me, the number of you who think missing school is ok - some of your excuses are quite selfish.". Well much as I love this site I find such rudeness and arrogence unacceptable onlyholly. To quote Mrs Thumper....."If you can't say nuthin' nice-don't say nuthin' at all" This is a discussion board...I believe there is a debate board somewhere on here maybe you confused the two maybeholly
To go back to your other comments Ian-Sure most parents (I realise not all -some of my best friends are teachers-I hear the horror parent stories!) realise most teachers do a great job under tremendous pressures and "holidays" are certainly not work free. I had a huge fight to get my own son into an acceptable secondary school and spent the last year of his primary education doing a round trip school run of eighty miles a day to ensure he had a school place that met both his educational needs and his other needs associated with ASD so no I'm certainly NOT a "bad parent" and choosing to take him out of school (with the full approval of his school) certainly doesn't make me so.......and the school certainly don't think so as I will be working at the school whilst teacher training myself next academic year ! I doubt they'd have approached me if they felt I didn't have the correct attitude somehow !! If I felt my son was one of those kids who even missing a week would disadvantage-I wouldn't do it-even though it would mean a holiday every other year rather than every year-but he isn't-he's bright and ahead of his peers. Some kids can do it and some can't.....it may not be fair (and very un-PC to admit it happens) but it's a fact of life.

 

[florry]

I have to agree with duchy I too found Hollys comments quite offensive.
I have always taken my children out of school for 2 weeks in a year. My eldest has 4 A* a levels 6 A* Gcse and 5 As

My fifteen year old already has grade A maths Gcse.

My DD who is 9 is also showing signs of gaining the grades that her brothers have.

They are well balanced and love family life especially our holidays to Florida.
We are all off again this year and I only hope that we don't bump into Holly oh, of course, mine are coming out of school for our trip... thank the lord ! she won't be there !

 

[KayleeUK]

There are lots of opinions here, can we please keep it on topic and have no personal attacks

Thank you