Say Good Bye to Maelstrom....A 'Frozen' Ride is Definite

[MarkC71]

I just wonder how much of all of this uproar over Maelstrom and Norway is more about a dislike of the movie Frozen then it is about the integrity of the theming of World Showcase. I've been going to Disney World regularly since about 2001 and we've been meeting characters and having Dining Experiences with them for the same amount of time. The very first time I was in Epcot I had my photo taken with Aladdin and Jasmine in Morocco. You can meet Belle in France, Mary Poppins in England, The Three Cabellaros are in the boat ride in Mexico ( My wife and I have also had our picture taken with them, back when you could meet all three). So whatever perceived misdirection there is in World Showcase was going on well before Frozen was in the picture. My sense is that the backlash that the Maelstrom closing is getting is more about that segment of the population that for whatever reason resents the success of the movie Frozen. Just to lay all my cards on the table I'm not exactly a die hard fan of Frozen either, I will say it exceeded my expectations the first time I saw it. But after the hundredth viewing with my daughter my excitement has waned significantly. But I'm also not going to sit back and pretend that this movie that made over $400 million dollars, has won an Oscar, inspired thousands of You Tube videos, and has dominated little girls parties for over a year is somehow not very popular. Regardless of whether the Frozen haters want to admit it or not, a lot of people are watching this movie, and a lot of people really like it. I have read many times over the years that Disney imagineers and executives felt that they made a huge mistake by not ensuring The Little Mermaid made it into the parks when the movie was still hot. I think that they have learned from that mistake and have tried to correct it recently, first by adding in the Tangled tower ( I know, I know, they are bathrooms. But give them credit for trying to do something) and now by adding a Frozen ride. I just don't get this need for everyone to complain about every change that is made at Disney World. A few months ago everyone was complaining that an outdated Maelstrom was considered a top tier ride for Fastpass+, now some of those same people are acting like this ride was some kind of holy grail.

And as for the argument that Frozen does not have any staying power and will be forgotten in five years. So what if it is? What is the loss really? An outdated ride that was only mildly entertaining and too short to begin with. So Disney puts the ride in and maybe it's only popular for 3-4 years, they can always change it out again if they need to.

I don't mean to get on a soapbox here, but I just don't get all this hand wringing over something that in my opinion is not really that big a departure from what has been going on in World Showcase for at least as long as I have been going, and if you have issues with all of this character stuff you probably should have stopped visiting World Showcase 14 years ago or so because I seriously doubt it's going to ever go back to the way it was when Epcot first opened.

 

[Lewisc]

Is this the part where I point out that little mermaid was a clone...and therefore didnt have alot of R&D or design cost...

So $100 at wal-Disney buys you an omnimover ride with some CG plaster rockwork outside and a waterfall...

Just saying

Could the 100 million dollar figure include an "internal charge" for use of the design produced for the Disneyland attraction?

I haven't read the entire thread. I have little doubt:

1. Guests will be forced to exit the ride through an extensive gift shop.
2. Video will be digital. We won't have the "issues" with fading film.
3. Guests who like the track layout of the present attraction should be pleased.

Disney could make the attraction FP+ only, reducing the space requirements for lines.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Could the 100 million dollar figure include an "internal charge" for use of the design produced for the Disneyland attraction?

I haven't read the entire thread. I have little doubt:

[*]Guests will be forced to exit the ride through an extensive gift shop.
[*]Video will be digital. We won't have the "issues" with fading film.
[*]Guests who like the track layout of the present attraction should be pleased.


Disney could make the attraction FP+ only, reducing the space requirements for lines.

Of course...on all accounts...

But you bring up something...

I actually don't like the layout or the ride system of maelstrom. It's not terrible, but seems a rather Unimagined thing.

For me...this is more mismanagement of EPCOT. This isn't some psycho outcry for maelstrom...like a certain bar at PI that fit about 50 people.

I can see the nemo overlay or soarin... I get it.

But for gods sakes, fix the damn Imagination ride or do something in place of wonders of life...

That's where the park needs it. The showcase can "age" gracefully for awhile and be a great place. The other side is semi ridiculous at this point.

This is about a giftshop... And a character meal...and photopass.

Oh...and is there ANY question that some type of "bibbiddi" shows up here?
I have none.

 

[mom2rtk]

[*]Guests will be forced to exit the ride through an extensive gift shop.

So what happens when Disney has no Frozen merchandise for said shop?

 

[lockedoutlogic]

So what happens when Disney has no Frozen merchandise for said shop?

The same thing as 3/4 of every other shop: the same stuff.

 

[wallrock]

I just wonder how much of all of this uproar over Maelstrom and Norway is more about a dislike of the movie Frozen then it is about the integrity of the theming of World Showcase. I've been going to Disney World regularly since about 2001 and we've been meeting characters and having Dining Experiences with them for the same amount of time. The very first time I was in Epcot I had my photo taken with Aladdin and Jasmine in Morocco. You can meet Belle in France, Mary Poppins in England, The Three Cabellaros are in the boat ride in Mexico ( My wife and I have also had our picture taken with them, back when you could meet all three). So whatever perceived misdirection there is in World Showcase was going on well before Frozen was in the picture. My sense is that the backlash that the Maelstrom closing is getting is more about that segment of the population that for whatever reason resents the success of the movie Frozen. Just to lay all my cards on the table I'm not exactly a die hard fan of Frozen either, I will say it exceeded my expectations the first time I saw it. But after the hundredth viewing with my daughter my excitement has waned significantly. But I'm also not going to sit back and pretend that this movie that made over $400 million dollars, has won an Oscar, inspired thousands of You Tube videos, and has dominated little girls parties for over a year is somehow not very popular. Regardless of whether the Frozen haters want to admit it or not, a lot of people are watching this movie, and a lot of people really like it. I have read many times over the years that Disney imagineers and executives felt that they made a huge mistake by not ensuring The Little Mermaid made it into the parks when the movie was still hot. I think that they have learned from that mistake and have tried to correct it recently, first by adding in the Tangled tower ( I know, I know, they are bathrooms. But give them credit for trying to do something) and now by adding a Frozen ride. I just don't get this need for everyone to complain about every change that is made at Disney World. A few months ago everyone was complaining that an outdated Maelstrom was considered a top tier ride for Fastpass+, now some of those same people are acting like this ride was some kind of holy grail.

And as for the argument that Frozen does not have any staying power and will be forgotten in five years. So what if it is? What is the loss really? An outdated ride that was only mildly entertaining and too short to begin with. So Disney puts the ride in and maybe it's only popular for 3-4 years, they can always change it out again if they need to.

I don't mean to get on a soapbox here, but I just don't get all this hand wringing over something that in my opinion is not really that big a departure from what has been going on in World Showcase for at least as long as I have been going, and if you have issues with all of this character stuff you probably should have stopped visiting World Showcase 14 years ago or so because I seriously doubt it's going to ever go back to the way it was when Epcot first opened.

The argument in the 'against' camp has never been about a like or dislike of the movie.

The argument has always been that Disney is welcome to make the ride, just place it in the appropriate park. Compared to what is being proposed here the other so-called additions in World Showcase like meet and greets are akin to window dressing while this project is a 'tear up the foundation' concept. A big difference. Going the route of ripping up existing setups and replacing them without any thought towards where the new material should reside goes against the theme park concept.

And I refuse to give them a pat on the back for building a bathroom.

 

[rteetz]

Wait - if they spent $100 million on Little Mermaid, and built an entire building from the ground up, that seems like this will be a pretty extensive re-do at 75% the cost. I was assuming all along they were going to use the same track/boat layout. There's almost no way that doesn't happen. I can't think of a ride tear-down using the same building that didn't take advantage of using the track layout (Off the top of my head: Winnie the Pooh replacing Mr Toad, Imagination re-do, Nemo replacing the original Seas ride. Buzz Lightyear Space Ranger Spin replacing If You Had Wings - all of them use the same track/room layout as the original ride.

So, I think if your numbers are right (LM @ $100 mil, Frozen @ $75 mil) that would leave it with a more expansive ride in Epcot.

Of course, I should put the caveat as to "where the heck did you get those numbers from?"

I heard that from a credible source on wdwmagic.com

 

[rteetz]

Good point, though there are definitely some significant differences between the two rides. In particular, they sunk a lot of money to building the structure and the exterior of TLM. I'm presuming there will be no (or little) exterior work involved.

I was trying to do some comparison and found this:



So, in 2014 dollars EE cost $139 million. You expect them to spend in that ballpark on an indoor ride that is in an existing show building? Can I ask this if you actually heard they were spending $150 million on this ride, would it make you happy? Or would you just be complaining about how much money they were wasting on a Frozen ride?


In the end though - we're speculating on some random post on a message board as to what the budgets are. You do realize there's probably about 25 people in the world that actually know the budget number for this job, and if you asked me I would bet $100 that $75 million is NOT the right number.

If I went over to that message board and said "I heard it was $200 million" would we then start speculating on that?

Wdwmagic has a handful of very credible sources that get things right a lot. for example frozen summer fun, maelstrom redo, potter, and more were all on there months prior to announcement. The rumor for maelstrom was posted in May and is now true no one else had the rumor prior to that. The spirit who posted that rumor has a long track record with getting things right. He has most recently said Tokyo is getting a big frozen attraction with new ride technology along with a restaurant and Im sure a meet and greet. SO this is more than just a ride its a frozen land almost that will cost 450 million.

 

[clsteve]

$75 million is a heck of a lot of money (Assuming it is true, it probably isn't) and implies they are not just going to slap Frozen in Maelstrom and rename it. So we may getting a decent ride and a redesign. It will be interesting to see what happens when construction starts. Some may not like it, but a great deal went into Little Mermaid.

I hope it is $75 million. They can do a lot!

It really doesn't matter what Disney does, though, Disney will always be wrong.

I don't know if the 75 mil figure is right or off by a factor of ten. But if they even spend a 100 grand on cardboard Frozen cutouts for Maelstrom and hire min wage high school princesses for the M&G - they better spend the other 74+ mil on managing the crowds.

Right now, the Norway Pavilion is narrow entrance that dead ends. What goes in must come out basically the same way while more is coming in.

Even with cardboard cutouts and the most basic M&G - that's enough to cause a daily little princess stampede of epic proportions into a blind canyon.

The have manage them getting there, once they're there and get them out -

back onto the WS walkway which doesn't have any other alternate crowd flow options - for Illuminations, F&W, and just day-to-day crowd mgt.

I'm definitely not saying they can't do it. But World Showcase isn't the most optimal logistical set up for any high demand attraction. Especially if it's the only high demand attraction and a M&G in that footprint.

Nothing else to draw that singly focused crowd away - like being the only porch light on during moth season....

 

[Lewisc]

So what happens when Disney has no Frozen merchandise for said shop?

That's why Disney is figuring 18 months. The should be able to convert the attraction in 12 months, look at how long it took Universal to open Transformers. Figure an extra 6 months to stock the gift shop

 

[Planogirl]

I don't know if the 75 mil figure is right or off by a factor of ten. But if they even spend a 100 grand on cardboard Frozen cutouts for Maelstrom and hire min wage high school princesses for the M&G - they better spend the other 74+ mil on managing the crowds.

Right now, the Norway Pavilion is narrow entrance that dead ends. What goes in must come out basically the same way while more is coming in.

Even with cardboard cutouts and the most basic M&G - that's enough to cause a daily little princess stampede of epic proportions into a blind canyon.

The have manage them getting there, once they're there and get them out -

back onto the WS walkway which doesn't have any other alternate crowd flow options - for Illuminations, F&W, and just day-to-day crowd mgt.

I'm definitely not saying they can't do it. But World Showcase isn't the most optimal logistical set up for any high demand attraction. Especially if it's the only high demand attraction and a M&G in that footprint.

Nothing else to draw that singly focused crowd away - like being the only porch light on during moth season....

Yes. Even if they expand into the lot next to Arendelle, that footprint is still pretty small for a ride, meet and greet and princess meal.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

The argument in the 'against' camp has never been about a like or dislike of the movie.

The argument has always been that Disney is welcome to make the ride, just place it in the appropriate park. Compared to what is being proposed here the other so-called additions in World Showcase like meet and greets are akin to window dressing while this project is a 'tear up the foundation' concept. A big difference. Going the route of ripping up existing setups and replacing them without any thought towards where the new material should reside goes against the theme park concept.

And I refuse to give them a pat on the back for building a bathroom.

He shoots...he scores!!

 

[shafke]

This has been the Disney MO for quite a few years.
Do not ADD new rides. Replace existing. After the fantasyland expansion was done there was a grand total of one more ride in the MK. (an additional Dumbo does not count) Snowwhite was removed and Airel was put in place. So 7DMT is it. Nothing that I can see is being done to increase ride capacity. Maelstrom still gets crowds and will ususally have a wait (especially with FP+)

Another problem I forsee is that if Epcot continues to be tiered with FP+ you are going to have to choose between Soarin', TT, and Frozen. The tier twos will still be throwaway fast passes.

 

[mom2rtk]

Another problem I forsee is that if Epcot continues to be tiered with FP+ you are going to have to choose between Soarin', TT, and Frozen. The tier twos will still be throwaway fast passes.

Absolutely. Just wait for the wails. (Oh, and I'll be one of them. )

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Absolutely. Just wait for the wails. (Oh, and I'll be one of them. )

The "tier 2's" are already borderline offensive...

I don't want to book any of them (or need to)...but, in classic internal BS web slinging fashion...they "make" you take them. Covering up a problem that they don't want exposed.

The tier system smelled like last weeks fish from the start.

In particular, EPCOT and studios, it would exposé that most of the lower tiers are skips...so they make you take them. And steer you towards doing what you wouldn't pick to do.

Ingenious...and obvious

 

[Andrew015]

Remember, there is a completely empty World Showcase "Lot" between Norway and Mexico. You want my opinion, that the Norway Building/Pavilion "expands" into that lot. You could easily make either a second entrance, or you have the entrance be through the Norway pavillion and the exit be on the other side of the Kringle Bakery. Or I could see the entrance being off to the side, and the exit feeding people into the shops.

Good point, though there are definitely some significant differences between the two rides. In particular, they sunk a lot of money to building the structure and the exterior of TLM. I'm presuming there will be no (or little) exterior work involved.

These two quotes are very contradictory. In my opinion, CleSteve's point about spending significant resources on "crowd-control" measures is spot-on. I also think the existing Norway pavilion will "spill over" into the empty lot next to Mexico, as I see no other option for accommodating the massive crowds that will be flocking to this pavilion (at least for the first year, until popularity dies)...

If that turns out to be the case, and they only plan to dedicate $75M to the project, I think we'd be lucky to even get the cardboard cutouts. I do agree that it is wayyyy to early to carve any of this in stone, but if I were a bettin' man, my money would be on the following:

• Minimal budget allocation. Disney has not proven otherwise on other, recent "makeover" projects. I bet there is some merit to the $75M figure.
• The project will expand into the empty lot next door. I see precious few alternatives for accommodating the future crowd levels coming to this pavilion.
• Majority of funds will be spent on expanding into the next lot. Included in this lot expansion portion of the project will be a massive gift shop as part of the exit.
• Minimal funds will be spent on the ride itself. It will basically be the same boat ride, only Frozen themed. I'm thinking Imagination-type makeover...

Call your bookies now...

 

[mom2rtk]

The tier system smelled like last weeks fish from the start.

Let's say it smells like last week's HALF BAKED fish.

They devised this plan in an attempt to hide their capacity problems. All it did was highlight it.

 

[SteveBlues]

Norway was always my favorite showcase, partly because of Maelstrom but also because it had the best merchandise, the bakery was a wonderful place to take a break with a snack, and the stave is a beautiful landmark that you can actually go into. While the stave may remain, who knows what else will survive the frozenfication. With Epcot in need of so much help, it seems a shame to alter something that is already beloved. As a ride that Disney itself determined required a fastpass system, it seems odd to remove it. I think this will be the first of the fastpass rides to be removed in any park.

Now I understand they need to add frozen to the Parks, and I did enjoy the film, but I think everyone, frozen fans included, think there could be a more productive way. With that said, perhaps there was no choice. Frozen does not belong permanently in HS or AKP, there is no room in fantasy land, especially after the expansion, and frozen in future world or any other showcase beyond Norway would have been ridiculous. I suppose this is the best of bad options.

 

[LaidBackDad]

The argument in the 'against' camp has never been about a like or dislike of the movie.

The argument has always been that Disney is welcome to make the ride, just place it in the appropriate park. Compared to what is being proposed here the other so-called additions in World Showcase like meet and greets are akin to window dressing while this project is a 'tear up the foundation' concept. A big difference. Going the route of ripping up existing setups and replacing them without any thought towards where the new material should reside goes against the theme park concept.

And I refuse to give them a pat on the back for building a bathroom.

I admit, this is where I am having a hard time grasping the resistance from the "against" camp. To me, while very eloquently stated, sounds an awful lot like a temper tantrum of the inner child within all of us. Put in much more simplistic terms, as I understand it, the crux of this resistance boils down to: Why are they taking part of my playground away and giving it to the kids? Don't the smaller kids already have a big enough playground in the MK?

I couldn't agree more that several areas in Epcot need attention more than the WS. That said, it is impossible to argue they should have randomly dropped a Frozen attraction in another part of the park when there is such an obvious connection to the Norway pavilion. As much as I would love to see Disney do something ground breaking and original in Epcot, you can't ignore Frozen will bring a significant boost to the park and take some of the pressure off TT and Soarin (at least short term even if the ride re-do stinks).

I see no reason why Frozen and the WS can't coexist. Sure, the dynamics of the WS may shift away from a primarily adult focus to more of a family experience. The family experience is what WDW is about. Blending Frozen into the WS makes perfect sense to me just like characters making their appearances in their related countries. I can see how introducing more family oriented activities into the WS may change someones experience when they are trying to drink themselves around the world or even how it could effect the atmosphere of F&W; but, I think the family experience is why most people go to WDW in the first place. Times change and the original concept of the WS is a thing of the past. Keeping it segregated as an adults only experience isn't practical and it certainly doesn't mean it will turn into "Magic Kingdom - South".

 

[Andrew015]

Times change and the original concept of the WS is a thing of the past. Keeping it segregated as an adults only experience isn't practical and it certainly doesn't mean it will turn into "Magic Kingdom - South".

You are right. Times change. And from the inception of EPCOT until the present, the biggest thing that has changed has been the focus from Walt's vision to that of the Board's vision, which is focused solely on increasing revenues, dividends and shareholder return. If you really think that the suits give a d*** about "improving the family experience within World Showcase", then I'd really like to try some of that Kool-Aid.