Rope drop for FOP is a mob be warned

[Anabelletoronto]

No I said was found liable.

You can file a lawsuit over just about anything and it doesn't mean the other party is guilty (hello how many lawsuits has Disney been involved in the last few years over stuff--I remember hearing a one in regards to a girl falling up the stairs if I remember correctly on a Disney Cruise Ship or there was one in regards to Disney Springs I think too and another one for Disney Cruise Line; I'm sure there has been one for the Parks too).

A settlement is not an admission of guilt; corporations use settlement all the time in order to not drag on the process. It's very common. The only two companies that I've seen duke it out in court more is Apple and Samsung. Most settle without the public ever knowing the details.

Your comment of "I think Disney might be liable." would not hold up if "One day somebody gets trampled" unless that is what happens everytime situations such as these occur. So in other words if everytime there was a Black Friday event (as you said it was a good example) someone was trampled, then they sued whoever the company was or didn't even sue it was just determined by police, that the company was legally liable for injury due to "hype" then your statement of "I think Disney might be liable." would make more sense. As is your thoughtprocess is not realistic in the exact situation.

I disagree. If you have an icy walkway and somebody falls because you didn't salt it, you are liable. Someone doesn't have to always fall on ice.
However, I do agree that just because a case is filed, doesn't mean anyone was found liable/guilty. In the Walmart Black Friday example, the police didn't press any charges which does demonstrate that fault wasn't obvious.

But anyway- way off topic. I still would hope that Disney could foresee a possible injury and even without the risk of lawsuit would make changes to protect the children.

 

[tlmadden73]

It's partly the "me-first" mentality of our society, just like those cars that zip along on the shoulder and cut in at the last minute during a highway lane merge. They are only thinking of saving their own time and not realizing how much they are making it worse behind them.

Also . .how much of your own time are you really saving? How early did you need to get to the park to be first in at the turnstile line at AK? How long are you basically "waiting" at the gate waiting for rope drop? So are you really saving any time? What's the difference of waiting an hour or two before the park opens and waiting an hour or two during the day? (Yes .. I know .. waiting in the morning doesn't cut into the "open" hours of the park, but still .. your own time (and sleep) are still being used getting there super early.).

Disney should come up with a better strategy though for these high demand rides at Rope Drop. Think about the sprinting that will happen for SWGE or Ratatouille or Tron when those rides open, all rides in the far back ends of those parks, that will probably be in super high demand. There will be an all out foot race in some of those cases after the rope drops.

Really just surprised that Disney, knowing demand is high, just doesn't create an Early Morning Magic at AK. Breakfast, entrance to Pandora (and the ability to explore/take in the landscape without crowds) and early rides on FOP and River Journey. Wouldn't that sell like hotcakes and maybe decrease the morning demand (a bit) for those rides?

 

[Wubar]

It's partly the "me-first" mentality of our society, just like those cars that zip along on the shoulder and cut in at the last minute during a highway lane merge. They are only thinking of saving their own time and not realizing how much they are making it worse behind them.

Don't get me started on those idiots. I always wish the cars would band together, tighten up the gaps, and not let that zippy me-first car merge into the lane. Then let it sit there for 30 minutes because no one is letting that car in.

 

[BrianL]

Disney should come up with a better strategy though for these high demand rides at Rope Drop. Think about the sprinting that will happen for SWGE or Ratatouille or Tron when those rides open, all rides in the far back ends of those parks, that will probably be in super high demand. There will be an all out foot race in some of those cases after the rope drops.

Oh, God, I know! When I was doing the FoP Rope Drop a couple weeks ago all I could think was that if Avatar is like this, what's Star Wars going to be like? Avatar is arguably a way less popular franchise than Star Wars. It's going to be nuts! They are going to have to figure out something. While I didn't witness any bad behavior on our day, I can believe it happens and see the likelihood of it getting even worse as these new attractions open up.

 

[mom2rtk]

Oh, God, I know! When I was doing the FoP Rope Drop a couple weeks ago all I could think was that if Avatar is like this, what's Star Wars going to be like? Avatar is arguably a way less popular franchise than Star Wars. It's going to be nuts! They are going to have to figure out something. While I didn't witness any bad behavior on our day, I can believe it happens and see the likelihood of it getting even worse as these new attractions open up.

They found a way to handle the demand at Carsland at DLR for a very long time after it opened. They can do this. They just have to want to put the manpower behind it.

 

[piccolopat]

Being first to arrive at the park is not a guarantee that you will be first on any ride. If you can't keep up with the CMs as they walk the crowd into the park, you have to expect that people will get around you. Pushing or shoving is never acceptable, nor is using a stroller, scooter or wheelchair as a battering ram. RD is not a strategy that works for everyone. Anytime RD gives someone an edge, you will have people running. It happens with every new ride. It happened in the very early days of Epcot when there were no ADRs and instead you had to run to kiosks beneath Spaceship Earth to get your reservations for the day.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I disagree. If you have an icy walkway and somebody falls because you didn't salt it, you are liable. Someone doesn't have to always fall on ice.
However, I do agree that just because a case is filed, doesn't mean anyone was found liable/guilty. In the Walmart Black Friday example, the police didn't press any charges which does demonstrate that fault wasn't obvious.

But anyway- way off topic. I still would hope that Disney could foresee a possible injury and even without the risk of lawsuit would make changes to protect the children.

I don't know where the icy walkway is coming into play....that is something that people have been found legally liable for (businesses and homeowners alike). It would realistic if you said to someone "hey if you don't de-ice your walkway and someone falls you could be legally liable for their injuries".

I said has any of the businesses been found legally liable for injury as a direct result of 'creating hype' and how they have mobs and crowds. If you don't have Walmart, or Nebraska Furniture Mart, or Toys R Us or any of the other companies being found legally liable time and time again then jumping to the conclusion that "I think Disney might be liable if one day somebody gets trampled" wouldn't be realistic. That was all my point since you said black friday was a good example and to which I agreed it was. But you and I have different reasons why we think it's a good example is all.

As for Disney forseeing a possible injury and making changes to protect the children...multiple posters have already said that was the OP experienced as far as mob crowds wasn't isolated to FOP. It happened with 7DMT and FEA and I'm sure other rides. I'm sure we're going to see large crowds in the morning for Toy Story Land and Star Wars Land (though I believe people are thinking that will likely be cut offs points for entering into the land due to the people already in the land like they did for Pandora only I believe people are thinking it will last longer than just a week or so like it did for Pandora). I'm honestly wondering how those crowds will work given the bottleneck the entrances for Toy Story and Star Wars has created.

 

[Roxyfire]

OP I think you did a great job of describing what it actually feels like. I'm sorry your mom and son got caught up in that. I always hold my son's hand as tight as possible and we keep elbows out just so no one separates us. Not that he wouldn't be able to find me, but he's so small for his age, I could see him easily getting trampled. I will say, being there early puts you in a good position, but only if you're able-bodied and fast. We often get to the park early but don't worry about being the first in line. Just being toward the front is better than being at the very back when the park opens. This allows you to ride some things (not FoP) like Toy Story Mania a couple times before the real crowds arrive.

 

[mickeyluv'r]

Interesting.

Many of the DIS regulars now saying WDW can be dangerous- just said the opposite a few days ago:

"I've never felt at risk at Disney. Resorts or parks, or in between."

"No worries. I have told people over and over Disney is the safest place on earth."

" There are far more dangerous places to go that people still go to every day. Be diligent and observant but enjoy yourself."
"
I guess I feel as safe as possible in a large space with many entrances/exits and LOTS of people.
I really don't worry at all."
"I feel safer at Disney than I do going to work everyday."
"I feel like my odds of getting hurt in a car accident are much higher than anything happening to me while I'm at Disney. I really don't worry much about security while I'm there."

and this:
"Overall, Disney, to me, is like holy ground in a sense in the apolitical nonideological appeal to goodness that anyone would aim for in the world."


So which is it? WDW can't be both perfectly safe and regularly dangerous at the same time.

 

[DisneyMom74]

I never said it was ok behavior. I said it wasn't Disney that was responsible for controlling the behavior, to a point. They have some controls in place. After a point, people are responsible for their own behavior and the consequences of such. Why are the people behaving badly let off the hook? Just because no one is stopping them? Really? You need someone to tell you not to run, shove and push others?

Yes, and based on this, sounds like this is still what's happening here.



So sounds like the pushing/shoving is happening at the back, as I understand it. Which is why I put the behavior squarely on the shoulders of the people behaving badly. There are no excuses for their behavior. None whatsoever. Disney shouldn't be the one to do something to stop it. I venture to guess every last one of us learned not to do that in Kindergarten for goodness sakes. It's never ok.

We all learned many behaviors not to do. No, there is no excuse for their behavior, and the responsibility lies completely on them. Just like the responsibility for people who break the law lies completely on them. But it's not like those people are going up to the jail, saying, "Hey I broke the law, let me in!" We have to have policemen and a court system to make them be responsible. Disney needs to be the policemen in this situation. We have speed limits on our roads that most follow, but those who don't, get a ticket. Same type of thing that is happening here. Obviously they can't control people's behavior, but they can enforce consequences for that behavior. That's what society does. There are consequences for behavior out of the norm. And if it isn't up to Disney to do that, then who should? Other park-goers? I wouldn't think so. So Disney should find a way to prevent the behavior, or find a way to enforce consequences on those that behave outside of the rules.

 

[Wubar]

Interesting.

Many of the DIS regulars now saying WDW can be dangerous- just said the opposite a few days ago...

So which is it? WDW can't be both perfectly safe and regularly dangerous at the same time.

I would think the safety of WDW would be based on the type of people that are in the park on any given day, right? WDW can have all of their buildings/attractions/grounds up to code, be ADA compliant, have all restaurants pass health inspections, implement security procedures and hire people to provide protective services, etc etc etc, but at the end of the day, it's going to come down to the behavior of the guests populating the park on that day. If the park is fully functioning and populated with people mostly following the rules? You're probably going to feel safe. If a given day happens to be extra crowded and brings together an increased number of antagonistic people, people who have had too much to drink, kids/teens misbehaving, rule breakers combined with extra long lines, bad weather, ride breakdowns (increase in frustration factor), it's going to feel more chaotic and probably less safe and controlled compared to the other situation. So it really does depend on each day and on what everyone's personal interpretation of "safe" actually is.

 

[revdon64]

Interesting.

Many of the DIS regulars now saying WDW can be dangerous- just said the opposite a few days ago:

"I've never felt at risk at Disney. Resorts or parks, or in between."

"No worries. I have told people over and over Disney is the safest place on earth."

" There are far more dangerous places to go that people still go to every day. Be diligent and observant but enjoy yourself."
"
I guess I feel as safe as possible in a large space with many entrances/exits and LOTS of people.
I really don't worry at all."
"I feel safer at Disney than I do going to work everyday."
"I feel like my odds of getting hurt in a car accident are much higher than anything happening to me while I'm at Disney. I really don't worry much about security while I'm there."

and this:
"Overall, Disney, to me, is like holy ground in a sense in the apolitical nonideological appeal to goodness that anyone would aim for in the world."


So which is it? WDW can't be both perfectly safe and regularly dangerous at the same time.

Sounds to me like you're conflating two different issues here. Security at the gate and bag check is not the same as crowd control in the rush to a new ride. One can feel safe from the possibility of a terrorist shooting up the park and simultaneously feel unsafe from being trampled in a crowd of overzealous folks heading to a new/popular attraction.

 

[mickeyluv'r]

I'm sorry OP, that you were treated rudely. I've posted on this subject many times over my many years on the DIS. I've even had several DISers accuse me of lying. And so it goes.

I don't often do exact RD. We find it much more relaxing to arrive 5 minutes after the me-fist crowd has passed.

Though....

WDW hosts many folks. Self-centered folks come in many stripes.

Many folks do random weird stuff, as if we can read their mind. They randomly STOP in the middle of pathways unconcerned/oblivious that there are folks behind them.

IMO, those folks are also dangerous.

They give no warning, make no effort to 'pull to the side,' block the way for everyone else (i.e. the majority), and even get indignant when other folks ask to pass them. Plenty of folks also make no effort to walk on the right side of the path. Others seem oblivious to the size of their backpacks; swinging them unpredictably, while in line, not thinking someone is behind them.

 

[bladiator]

I'm honestly curious, at what point is it Disney's responsibility and at what point is it the guest?
How can Disney control the actions of every guest in their parks at all times?
Seriously asking how they can do this.
I know they have to put certain actions in to place but once they do that, isn't it up to the guest to be responsible too? Does the guest loose all responsibility here?

At some point, you just have to hit someone with a crazy bad consequence so that people learn the lesson. Like below ....

A simpler version of this would be multiple ropes to separate groups of guests as they move forward. Pass ahead of your rope, you're out.

This was my thought. You explain the rules loudly, succinctly, and 5 or more times while waiting at the entrance, and when people break those rules ... sorry, you're out. Out of the park. Do something that will really mean business. But again ... Disney will never do that. Those people could buy a $200 meal later. Did you get trampled and bloodied on the way to FOP? Sorry, here's a Mickey bar. Have a nice day.

 

[CeruleanMoon]

Your experience sounds awful, OP! I would have been upset as well.

The lesson I'm taking away from the story is this:

I don't often do exact RD. We find it much more relaxing to arrive 5 minutes after the me-fist crowd has passed.

I'm wondering if there is a "sweet spot" to doing RP. Time it so that you are there early, approx. when the park opens, but not so early that you are infighting the initial entry mob that's been building up for the hour previous. Something to think about for sure.

Lesson number 2 might be: get out of the path of the mob as soon as possible and go find something less popular ride! Save the super popular rides for FP or the end of the day.

 

[bladiator]

Think about the sprinting that will happen for SWGE or Ratatouille or Tron when those rides open, all rides in the far back ends of those parks,

Oh man, didn't even think about Ratatouille. But then again, that will make the IG a new hot opening spot.

 

[MaryLovesPoohBear]

We were there to see it in September. As I have said in other threads, there were women literally running with double strollers, trying to pass people to get closer to the front of the crowd. It was amazing to watch.

People are crazy.

 

[ilovetotravel1977]

I can honestly say if someone tries to mow over any of my family members it won't be pretty. I have zero patience for rude and inconsiderate people of any age or gender.

 

[mickeyluv'r]

Sounds to me like you're conflating two different issues here. Security at the gate and bag check is not the same as crowd control in the rush to a new ride. One can feel safe from the possibility of a terrorist shooting up the park and simultaneously feel unsafe from being trampled in a crowd of overzealous folks heading to a new/popular attraction.

I don't see it that way, because that isn't what people posted.

Most people make decisions based on irrational emotions, not actual facts. (see: Richard Thaler)

We want to believe WDW's hidden security will keep us safe, even though we know it doesn't protect us from ordinary rope drop crowds. That's a bit nutty.

Either we're safe at WDW or we aren't.

 

[mickeyluv'r]

I can honestly say if someone tries to mow over any of my family members it won't be pretty. I have zero patience for rude and inconsiderate people of any age or gender.

But what would come after that?

I'd love to see our society go in the opposite direction for a change, but maybe I'm just being irrational.