Pop Century

[CDavid]

Originally posted by Eeyore2U
I feel bad for those with ressies....although their eyesight will be saved. I hope during the delay they review the design, knock this one down and build something more Disneylike.

I actually wish I would have had reservations made next summer for Pop Century. I might have had the reservation transferred to a moderate for Pop Century prices. Right now, I'm wondering if All-Stars will sell-out much earlier than usual for the busy seasons, since it will have to absorb all the off-property guests who otherwise would stay at Pop Century.

Also, in thinking about the basic Pop/All-Star design, it looks like this would be an almost simple hotel to "re-theme", should Disney ever wish (need) to do so. Take down the oversize icons and letters, change details in the rooms, and remove the stairwells at each building, and you have a nice, plain hotel building - ready for whatever new "decorations" (themeing) you wish to apply. This wouldn't be so easy at Port Orleans (iron railings, Mansion building columns) or the Polynesian (roofs, wood-design exteriors). At Pop Century, you could theoritically build something "more Disneylike" by simply redecorating.

 

[JeffJewell]

...the thread on the Resort Board called "If Money Wasn't An Object," or something like that?

I believe there is data there (or actually, the absence of certain data points) that is germaine to this thread.

Jeff

 

[d-r]

Originally posted by thedscoop
...we may disagree, but at least we both watch College Gameday!

Have a great day and Go Vols!

scoop.

Oh good lord do we ever disagree. Have a great a day and War Eagle,

DR

 

[All Aboard]

JJ, (in response to your note to the "money no object thread") I think what you are hinting at is that nobody has mentioned the All Stars. Why should that come as a surprise?

I suspect that if Disney were to build a hotel with standard guest rooms that are 1,500 square feet with giant indoor hot tubs in each room, personal massuesse/massuere (pardon my spelling) in each room, etc. etc. etc. Let's include limosuine service anywhere on site, let's include front of line access any time, any where, let's throw in reserved seating at everything for kicks. Let's call it Kingdom Suites.

Do you honestly think that anyone would respond with an answer other than "Kingdom Suites"?

I don't believe that anyone here is arguing that the All Stars are as nice as the Grand Floridian or the Boardwalk. Clearly, that's why they cost Much Much less.

That thread doesn't sway my opinion that the All Stars fill a much needed purpose at WDW and do it with Disney flair and imagination. Chalk it up to "agree to disagree" cause I ain't budgin' on this one.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

That thread doesn't sway my opinion that the All Stars fill a much needed purpose at WDW and do it with Disney flair and imagination. Chalk it up to "agree to disagree" cause I ain't budgin' on this one.

I do chalk it up to "agree to disagree". Which is why I dropped out of this thread a while ago (although I pull it up every hour or so, just to see the latest).

And I'll go along with your "ain't budgin'" point of view. But just so everyone is clear on 'personal' feeling towards 'Disney standards', I ain't budging' either. The All Stars could have and should have been done with those standards in mind. They could have and should have themed them instead of decorating them. And they certainly could have and should have upgraded some of those 'amenities' (such as a table service restaurant) and thus made the caste system they instituted a little less obvious. But as YoHo pointed out, they need some easily definable 'reasons' (differences) to justify the inappropriate costs of the moderates and especially the deluxes. Without the All Stars, in their stripped down, decorated state, they'd be hard pressed to show that difference.

They're on Disney property. That's about all they've got going for them. And with talk about EE going away, that ain't much!!

 

[JeffJewell]

JJ, (in response to your note to the "money no object thread") I think what you are hinting at is that nobody has mentioned the All Stars. Why should that come as a surprise?

...I didn't draw attention to it because of the surprise of it all; to be honest I think I could have pretty accurately predicted the approximate outcomes of both the polls and this thread I mentioned. It was more interesting to me under the heading of "how you ask the question affects the answer you'll get." YoHo's poll was skewed toward the two ends because of the nature of our underlying debate: either you see the All Stars style of theming to be of the same category as the non-Values, or you see it as a different direction entirely. Your poll was skewed in favor of the All Stars because, by putting the condition "have stayed there" on participation, your sample could not possibly include the opinions of those who feel so strongly about the All Stars that they've avoided them entirely.

When the question was phrased this way, no one, not even the folks with the kids who adore the All Stars, has thus far put forth the opinion that they'd stay at the All Stars, if they weren't considering the money.

When it comes down to it, the reason to stay at the All Stars is because it's a cheap hotel room. It will be interesting to see what happens to bookings if EE mornings are cancelled; that's a big factor in the All Stars/off-site decision.

Chalk it up to "agree to disagree" cause I ain't budgin' on this one

I can do that.

It's all a part of the same discussion we're all having continually. A certain percentage of us, for whatever reason, came to view Disney as synonymous with achingly high quality: I don't have three copies of Pinocchio (VHS, LD, and now DVD, as technology has improved) because it was the cheapest entertainment available, I have them because Pinocchio is a stunning achievement and historical landmark in animation (I do not, and will not, own any copies of The Tigger Movie for the inverse reason: it's the same kind of off-shore sweatshop produced animation I don't care to watch on tv every afternoon. It's a cheap movie, in the most malevolent sense of the word "cheap" I can muster).

The other percentage of us seems to believe that everything upon which Disney stamps a copyright notice is therefore "Disney Quality." With an "agree to disagree" attitude, I reject that position categorically.

the All Stars fill a much needed purpose at WDW and do it with Disney flair and imagination

Go ahead and call me a snob, but "cheap enough so everybody can afford it" is _not_ one of the criteria for Disney Magic. If fact, it's just silly: not everybody can afford it even now. The assertion that the All Stars fill a much needed purpose by being cheaper implies that an even larger purpose could be filled with even _cheaper_ beds. Where does it end? Wouldn't the SuperValue with the mausoleum style sleeping drawers (all with Disney Magic proudly displayed in the Mouse Ear drawer pulls) do a better job of meeting that purpose than do the Values? I'll even bet some kids would think it was cool to sleep in a drawer... You're just a Disney snob fatcat who can afford to stay at the All Stars if you think the tent city on the Walk Around the World isn't "Disney Quality." (I fully intended that to come off as thigh-slappingly hilarious... I'm quite sure it'll come back to bite my @$$ as a quote in some far-flung thread...)

I don't believe that anyone here is arguing that the All Stars are as nice as the Grand Floridian or the Boardwalk. Clearly, that's why they cost Much Much less

What's clear to me is that the All Stars don't offer the immersive vacation World that was the whole point of Disney World in the first place, and that they offer very little (even if some of the "very little" happens to itself be "very big") that is different from every other TraveLodge in the world. The All Stars are a Disney resort in the same way as the Power Rangers are a Disney television show, something cheap and easy to fill up some space.

The main attraction of the All Stars is how cheap they are. We can agree to disagree, but that simply doesn't describe a traditional Disney product to me.

Jeff

 

[YoHo]

I'll posit again, and maybe this time someone will answer.

What's clear to me is that the All Stars don't offer the immersive vacation World that was the whole point of Disney World in the first place,

You say that's a bad thing, and I admit to preferring the vacation world WDW was first buit as, BUT do the Allstars exist as some sort of dumbing down? or do they exist, because the all encompassing vacation world is not what the vast public wanted?

After all, those off-site rooms always filled up before All-stars existed, Disney is simply providing a new albeit less unique vacation expireance. One that many people still want.

Why is it wrong for them to provide this expireance?
Why is indicative of a caste system to provide something people want?


Why couldn't they be less disgustingly, offensivly, Ugly?

D Okay, I just had to throw the last bit in there )

 

[JeffJewell]

Why is it wrong for them to provide this expireance?

...I think it's wrong on two bases: first, because it is a rejection of the principles and tenets under which the company created its fan base and reputation, therefore contributing to the dilution of the brand name, and second, because to compete on the field of "what product is cheapest" is to subject yourself to untenable variability in the market.

More on the first: You got your customers by stuffing as much into the product as possible, even if was going to be expensive (this is where Landbaron and I will take hits from friendly fire: my only problem with rising prices is the quality of what they're offering is sinking while prices rise. Disney was never cheap; I was damn lucky to get to go as much as I did in the seventies [and my grandfather worked damn hard in the forties, fifties, and sixties to bestow upon me that luck]). What happens when you _stop_ stuffing the quality, but make the product cheaper? If the quality was important, you've already lost that customer. If the price was important, you've set yourself up to lose that customer to someone else's fire sale. Either way, "losing customers," sooner or later, is the ultimate result.

More on the second: Vacations are a luxury item, a likely target for customer spending cuts should tough times hit. If your rooms are all $300 a night, you're selling to a market segment that is less affected by economic ups and downs. Why is the Pop Century delayed while the Beach Club Villas are not? Because in harder times, it's the folks staying in the $80 rooms who are most likely to be affected to the point of changing vacation plans.

Putting up cheap hotels was a fine way for Disney's leadership to show an immediate surge during a booming economy. Now that the boom has busted, that market segment is staying home, and Disney has a white (or, in this case, day-glo purple) elephant on their hands.

The DVC properties are another place where Disney's short-term focus is going to end up strangling them at some future point, but I realize there is no way of convincing anyone of that for another ten or so years.

Jeff

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

You're just a Disney snob fatcat who can afford to stay at the All Stars if you think the tent city on the Walk Around the World isn't "Disney Quality." (I fully intended that to come off as thigh-slappingly hilarious...

It was. I actually laughed out loud!!

 

[All Aboard]

But JJ,

You make it sound like the presence of the All Stars cheapens your experience at WDW! We are talking about the addition of an amenity that is great for some folks. You don't really even have to look at it or see it. I'd say it's pretty darn transparent to folks like you and Landbaron. Heck, I haven't seen the Disney Institute Resort offerings in ages. I can't even remember what they look like. Although I recall it to be pretty darn bland with the exception of the unique treehouses.

Certainly I disagree with your conjecture about lower quality "supervalue" resorts. For one, I would hate to see YoHo's unthemed (or undecorated for that matter) Day's Inn onsite resort. Even if it were $29 a night.

Here's what I think some of you are missing from me. I LIKE the All Stars. I think they are great. The first time I saw artwork for them, I thought it was a great idea. It's not just that they are inexpensive - I really enjoy staying there. I don't think they are ugly.

I do, however, think Pop Century is ugly.

 

[Eeyore2U]

Originally posted by gcurling

I do, however, think Pop Century is ugly.

Thanks for getting to my original point. Could it be that All Stars and Pop Century are over themed? Boardwalk, Yacht Club and the like are themed but not overtly or grotesquely. They are subtle. Could All Stars and Pop Century be done this way? My guess is yes. Should they build resorts like the Values. ABSOLUTELY!!!!! They serve a purpose. When we started going, there were no Values and we stayed at CBR. Made it hard to go do the lower category and once we went to Deluxe there was no going back. Disney needs something for everyone. DVC is perfect for those that choose to go often and prefer a bigger room. Magic is what WE make it. Disney just gives us the surrounding, where ever we choose to find it.

 

[YoHo]

it is a rejection of the principles and tenets under which the company created its fan base and reputation

Define this.
Its not that I completely Disagree, but I think we may have different Ideas on what those principles are.

because to compete on the field of "what product is cheapest" is to subject yourself to untenable variability in the market.

This is true, but is it relevent?



Walt Disney the man. Had a singular Genious. He knew what the public wanted before they did. In 1954 there were
NOT millions of people clamouring for a spinner using Dumbo Cars or a simple ride throough of Snow White.
Disney created these and remarkably he was right on in what the public wanted.

Walt Disney World was created so that Disney himself had complete control over what went in and Where it went. He and only He defined what the Disney expireance would be within the bounds of the property.

Lets combine these two. Disney Knows what the people want, Disney has full creative control on delivering expireances to the people.



Enter the assumption, the vast majority of the people in the World today want a Disney Vacation that consists of an inexpensive hotel room combined with reasonably convient access (defined not just by transportation, but by ticketing and EE and so forth).

I contend that it is the over-riding tenent of the Disney Franchise to provide the entertainment that people want and to do so on its own terms. Thus the Value resorts are completely within the bounds of the guiding principles of Disney.


I have previously attempted to illustrate that gate attendence was being driven up by these kinds of guests regardless of the onsite hotels.


Our good friend Landbaron talks of relaxing and enjoying the atmosphere of the park while most guests scury around like Lemmings to the ocean. Those lemmings are now Normal.

Disney has provided what its guests want.


I'll agree it pts them in a less stable position, BUT their growth would have been stagnant otherwise and THAT would have doomed the company further.

Plus, Gate receits would have been unaffected meaning they would have dropped like a rock either way.

 

[YoHo]

New Poll

http://www.disboards.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110955

 

[All Aboard]

New poll:

Do you think the Fire Engine is red?
Do you think the Fire Engine is blue?



YoHo, what do you intend to accomplish with that poll other than verify the obvious? I don't think that anyone here believes that the experience is the same at the All Stars. Again - hence the price differential.

Still, I'm really interested to see if anyone chooses that they are the same. I voted that they were different - even though it's been ages since I stayed in a Deluxe.

 

[YoHo]

Perhaps I was not clear enough, I meant the fundimental expireance. Is it the same type of vacation.
The first respondent indicated it was not.

 

[All Aboard]

Actully YoHo, so far all the respondents have indicated that it is not fundamentaly the same. But, I do think that some will expand on the definition of "fundamental." You can sit on your balcony at a deluxe, you can't do that at a Value - it's a different experience. But, no matter how someone defines "fundamentally", I'd still be shocked if anyone responds that it is the same.

YoHo, just to refresh my memory I skimmed through the Car thread. You didn't respond. Did you vote? Remind me, what car are you in?

 

[Eeyore2U]

DS,

I agree about DVC. Money better spent for a regualr deluxe environment. We may have been able to moderates about every 18 months. Now we can do one or two trips a year with above average accomodations. If I had to stay at a Value it would not be worth it to me. Never heard of discounts or annual passes until I found these boards.

 

[YoHo]

I refused to be pidgeonholed. I ridea Harley and veer around cutting you all off.

 

[hopemax]

So I posted my own poll cause I didn't like your polls

http://www.disboards.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110971

 

[YoHo]

Hopemax, I think all the polls have merit, but you got right to the bottom of the issue. Are they ugly or aren't they.