petition in favor of banning nativity

[#1hockeymom]

Sigh. Again, the refusal to see the issue. No one has a problem with Christians displaying a Nativity. Display a hundred of them on your lawn if you want. I've never seen anyone throw fits over that, either. The problem is displaying a Nativity on public property utilizing public funds. Is this clear for you now? Do you understand the issue or do I need to type slower?

Oh, and by the way, there are 16 different spellings of Hanukkah (which actually is a very minor holiday in the Jewish religion)

And like I've said, without being snarky, is that I don't have problem with other religions being on display on public property or money being used for Muslim footbaths at public institutions, or any item of this nature, so why do people continually think it is ok to bash Christian beliefs?

I knew that Hanukkah was a minor Jewish holiday. I also know that it has grown larger in many families as they add other secular symbols to it.

 

[Master Mason]

I went back and edited my post. Jerk.

And I have an excuse.

#1-I'm not perfect...even though I like to think I am.

#2-I'm doped up.

LMAO



But hey you have to give me credit, I do read what you write.

 

[Master Mason]

Well, in my opinion Santa's not really secular. Santa's for people that celebrate Christmas. Not for little Jewish kids who don't celebrate Christmas. So the Santa's in the mall, for instance - for kids who celebrate Christmas. Not for kids that don't.

I've never known anyone non-Christian (and by that I mean someone who adheres to another faith, other than Christianity - not someone who has no faith at all) celebrate Christmas.

Does that make sense?

I actually know many people that do, they were all from families that had mixed religions somewhere in their families.

 

[tinkerdorabelle]

Since everyone who is Christian on this thread doesn't seem to have a problem with religious symbols from other religions being represented, what, exactly is all the fuss about?

Oh yeah... its not about having representation. It seems to be about taking away our symbols only.

It was quite enlightening when I could teach by reading books about and have symbols of Ramadan and Hanukkah, along with teaching the meaning behind Kwanzaa, but I couldn't read a book about the true meaning of Christmas. I had to tip toe around Christianity in a school that was 99 percent Christian. I couldn't answer questions directed towards me but had to use the, "as your parents", answer.

That is sad.

 

[ilisao]

Then you go to your local government or town meeting, and ask to have your taxpayer money spent in other ways. If the MAJORITY want otherwise, then you respect that. As I stated earlier, I saw a government building that had a manger donated by private citizens with a sign stating such. I wonder how you would feel about that, if it were not taxpayer money, and if all symbols from all faiths were allowed. Seems to me it isn't really about the taxpayer money in some cases.

If this were a problem in my town, I would be the first person there protesting. But, it's not.

How would I feel about it if no taxpayer money were used? If it were on private property, I'd feel just dandy. However, if it were displayed on government property - even if subsidized by private funds - would not be cool in my eyes. And I don't care how many religious symbols were included. I've said time and time again none of that belongs on government property, even my own symbol. Then again, I don't need to see the symbols of my religion everywhere I go.

 

[ilisao]

And like I've said, without being snarky, is that I don't have problem with other religions being on display on public property or money being used for Muslim footbaths at public institutions, or any item of this nature, so why do people continually think it is ok to bash Christian beliefs?

I knew that Hanukkah was a minor Jewish holiday. I also know that it has grown larger in many families as they add other secular symbols to it.

No one is bashing Christian beliefs. Enough of the persecution complex already. It's old.

 

[JB111107]

Can someone just explain to me how "Winter Solstice" became a holiday? What decorations are there for that? A snowflake??

Why is it that the "tolerant of others" group has to get all up in arms over something trivial like this? If they were so tolerant of others, then they'd obviously have no problem with this....is it because they can't stand the thought of anything traditional being held sacred these days?? Did they not have anything of "tradition" to keep from their childhood? Seems when we were kids, 98% of the country celebrated Christmas. People said Merry Christmas, and it was all good. I have yet to encounter a Jewish person who threw a fit at being wished Merry Christmas. I have yet to encounter a Christian who threw a fit at being wished a Happy Hanukah. If people can get past all the semantics and realize the intent behind the actions, the world would be a generally happier place.

Goodwill towards men appears all but lost on people with too much time on their hands.

 

[tinkerdorabelle]

JB111107

 

[tinkerdorabelle]

If this were a problem in my town, I would be the first person there protesting. But, it's not.

How would I feel about it if no taxpayer money were used? If it were on private property, I'd feel just dandy. However, if it were displayed on government property - even if subsidized by private funds - would not be cool in my eyes. And I don't care how many religious symbols were included. I've said time and time again none of that belongs on government property, even my own symbol. Then again, I don't need to see the symbols of my religion everywhere I go.

This is what you say below, you clearly state using public funds. As I stated also I don't believe it really is about taxpayer money for most, they just want it gone and thats sad to me. Tolerance by its definition means to tolerate, not remove bc you don't agree. Although I do agree with your right to petition and go to your government if tax dollars fund it, I never understand the strong feelings about having it removed and intolerance, by the same people who usually promote tolerance in other areas, find tolerance so hard in religious and seems mainly Christian areas that they don't agree with.

Sigh. Again, the refusal to see the issue. No one has a problem with Christians displaying a Nativity. Display a hundred of them on your lawn if you want. I've never seen anyone throw fits over that, either. The problem is displaying a Nativity on public property utilizing public funds. Is this clear for you now? Do you understand the issue or do I need to type slower?

Oh, and by the way, there are 16 different spellings of Hanukkah (which actually is a very minor holiday in the Jewish religion)

 

[Mr Man]

And, in news from around the world........

Naples nativity scene row solved Barack Obama back in 'presepe' mecca

http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2008-12-03_103291592.html

So, I guess the question is,

How do we keep our government figures out of other countries Nativity scenes?



and why oh why do they refer to Naples famed 'presepe' street as the MECCA for 'presepe' lovers?

Presepe being Italian for Nativity Scenes.

 

[Disney Doll]

I wouldn't have signed it. But I wouldn't have signed a petition banning a menorah either.

 

[Laura]

Can someone just explain to me how "Winter Solstice" became a holiday? What decorations are there for that? A snowflake??

Why is it that the "tolerant of others" group has to get all up in arms over something trivial like this? If they were so tolerant of others, then they'd obviously have no problem with this....is it because they can't stand the thought of anything traditional being held sacred these days?? Did they not have anything of "tradition" to keep from their childhood? Seems when we were kids, 98% of the country celebrated Christmas. People said Merry Christmas, and it was all good. I have yet to encounter a Jewish person who threw a fit at being wished Merry Christmas. I have yet to encounter a Christian who threw a fit at being wished a Happy Hanukah. If people can get past all the semantics and realize the intent behind the actions, the world would be a generally happier place.

Goodwill towards men appears all but lost on people with too much time on their hands.

The Winter Solstice celebrations are a prehistoric tradition that originated in many different cultures to welcome the return of the sun and longer hours of daylight. Things like decorating trees, gift-giving, holly, mistletoe, the Yule log, etc come from solstice/Yule/Saturnalia rituals that are pagan in origin, though they have been incorporated into Christians' celebrations. People like me are trying to take back those traditions, and many Christians eschew them. This year I'll be celebrating the Solstice with the burning of a Yule log and I'll be decorating a tree with red and gold.

And no, most people don't throw fits over being wished a nice day, no matter if they celebrate that day or not.

 

[Disney Doll]

The Winter Solstice celebrations are a prehistoric tradition that originated in many different cultures to welcome the return of the sun and longer hours of daylight. Things like decorating trees, holly, mistletoe, the Yule log, etc come from solstice/Yule/ Saturnalia rituals that are pagan in origin, though they have been incorporated into Christians' celebrations.

And no, most people don't throw fits over being wished a nice day, no matter if they celebrate that day or not.

Decorating trees,holly, mistletoe etc. have been incorporated into many peoples' holiday traditions...not just Christians.

Somewhere along the way, the secular (Santa, holly, Christmas trees) trappings of Christmas got attributed to Christianity. I'm not sure why.

 

[tinkerdorabelle]

The Winter Solstice celebrations are a prehistoric tradition that originated in many different cultures to welcome the return of the sun and longer hours of daylight. Things like decorating trees, gift-giving, holly, mistletoe, the Yule log, etc come from solstice/Yule/Saturnalia rituals that are pagan in origin, though they have been incorporated into Christians' celebrations. People like me are trying to take back those traditions, and many Christians eschew them. This year I'll be celebrating the Solstice with the burning of a Yule log and I'll be decorating a tree with red and gold.

And no, most people don't throw fits over being wished a nice day, no matter if they celebrate that day or not.

I myself am aware of that and find it very interesting. I hope you can take back your traditions. Sounds beautiful to me.

 

[Laura]

Decorating trees,holly, mistletoe etc. have been incorporated into many peoples' holiday traditions...not just Christians.

True, but many folks think that Christianity originated these traditions. I know some Jews have "Hanukkah bushes" while other Jews would never have them in their homes. But the decorated tree is still referred to, typically, as a Christmas tree. I certainly don't mind if people want to hang mistletoe or decorate with evergreens, but it seems like certain Christians think they "own" these things, hence JB's snarky comment about Solstice decorations. Obviously, she doesn't realize that most of what she thinks of as "Christmas decorations" did not originate with Christmas. Certainly, a nativity/creche is Christian through and through.

 

[luvmy3]

Decorating trees,holly, mistletoe etc. have been incorporated into many peoples' holiday traditions...not just Christians.

Somewhere along the way, the secular (Santa, holly, Christmas trees) trappings of Christmas got attributed to Christianity. I'm not sure why.

I was always under the impression that those things were incorporated into the Christian Christmas celebration because it would make it easier for non Christians to convert to Christianity. I'm not exactly sure if that is correct but it makes sense to me. The celebration of the winter solstice was around long before Jesus was born. Early Christians picked Dec. 25th because of that.

 

[mirmartinez]

I was always under the impression that those things were incorporated into the Christian Christmas celebration because it would make it easier for non Christians to convert to Christianity. I'm not exactly sure if that is correct but it makes sense to me. The celebration of the winter solstice was around long before Jesus was born. Early Christians picked Dec. 25th because of that.

I read Constatine had a lot to do with the pagan/christian mix.
I went to find a source to confirm and found this "Should a Christian Celebrate Christmas?"
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/xmas/celeb.htm



Here is something I was not aware of

2. Nativity Scenes (tainted with paganism) -- Nearly every form of pagan worship descended from the Babylonian mysteries, which focus attention on the "mother-goddess" and the birth of her child. This was adapted to "Mary-Jesus" worship, which then easily accommodated the multitude of pagans "converted" to Christianity inside Constantine's Roman Catholic Church. If anyone were to erect statues (i.e., images) of Mary and Joseph by themselves, many within Protestant circles would cry "Idolatry!" But at Xmas time, an image of a little baby is placed with the images of Mary and Joseph, and it's called a "nativity scene." Somehow, the baby-idol "sanctifies" the scene, and it is no longer considered idolatry! (cf. Exo. 20:4-5a; 32:1-5a; 9-10a).

 

[Laura]

I was always under the impression that those things were incorporated into the Christian Christmas celebration because it would make it easier for non Christians to convert to Christianity. I'm not exactly sure if that is correct but it makes sense to me. The celebration of the winter solstice was around long before Jesus was born. Early Christians picked Dec. 25th because of that.

There are some instances where pagan and Christian traditions were purposely aligned, but Christianity hasn't always smiled upon inclusion of pagan rituals. The early Catholic Church wanted to ban most of the Christmas celebrations because they stemmed too much from Sol Invictus, which was what Saturnalia had turned into. Some folks just kept doing what they'd always been doing. The rebirth of the sun simply became the birth of God. And who doesn't like to brighten the dark winter with some nice lights or a roaring fire?

 

[Laura]

Here is something I was not aware of

That's interesting. I knew about mother-goddess religions, but not that a nativity scene hearkened back to that.

 

[daisax]

As long as every religion represented in a city/town/county that wants a display up can have one put up, I see no problem with spending tax dollars on that.

Why? Even if you’re completely inclusive, what is the intended purpose? I drive by 5 churches/houses of worship in my town on a daily basis. Almost all of them have some kind of nativity scene (including the one facing the town common). What purpose does putting another one in the town square accomplish that simply driving down the street and seeing the displays of the local churches AND the displays of the families who decorate their lawns accomplish? Is the purpose to make people feel good?

Abortion and war have been brought up -- whatever one's opinions on either, an argument can be made that there is a legitimate government role in defining and protecting individual rights, and military action/defense. Just what exactly is the government's role in decorating public land with explicitly religious material? Especially explicitly religious material that is in no way unexpressed dozens/hundreds of ways on private property within that government's jurisdiction?

I don’t see “it’s not inclusive/it’s taxpayer money” as the problem, I see “it’s inappropriate” as the problem. Unnecessary and inappropriate.

So, we can pick and chose where our tax dollars go now? We all know that isn't true.

The original post was about precisely that – a petition to pick and choose where tax dollars go. Which is a perfectly legitimate part of local government. Federal government, too, of course, if you get enough momentum behind it.

Not one single person on this entire 28 page thread has advocated asking stores or clubs or groups or private citizens to limit religious displays/declarations on their lawns, windows, roofs, or cars. Not one. And yet people still insist that it’s about taking THEIR rights and symbols away. I really don’t get it.