petition in favor of banning nativity

[LotsOfQuestions]

The problem with that as always is there is no seperation of church and state. It says congress shall pass no laws regarding the establishement of any religion of the free exersise there of. No where in those words does it say seperation of church and state.

Yes, but if you read the documents and statements that were discussed by our founding fathers that were eventually whittled down to the wording of the amendment, the intent of separation of church and state is clearly there.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god, [the people, in the 1st Amendment,] declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. -Thomas Jefferson

That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence, and therefore all men have an equal, natural and unalienable right to the exercise of religion according to the dictates of conscience, and that no particular sect or society ought to be favored or established by law in preference to others. - Virginia Constitution

The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext, infringed. - James Madison

That the people have an equal, natural, and unalienable right freely and peaceably to exercise their religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that no religious sect or society ought to be favored or established by law in preference to others. - New York

 

[burberryplaid]

I want to start off by saying I respect everyone's opinions. I was just wondering why the OP signed it as they did not state their reasoning in the first post. For those who gave their own explanations as to why they would or would not sign it, I respect your opinions.

With that said, I would have to say I would not sign it. The city I live in sponsors many displays and holiday festivities. We have a huge Santa and a snowman in front of city hall. There is a nativity on the other side of the building and a menorah near by. They have a "flying santa" come in via parachute every year and they have a Christmas parade. These displays and festivities have been going on for decades. I am sure the displays were paid for many years ago. If the city chooses to do these things, I have no problem with it. If they discontinued these things, I bet we'd have an uproar as I believe it's tradition, more than a statement for organized religion. I know times have changed since the city first started to do these things..I guess I just think there are more important things in life than getting in a tizzy about it all.

 

[ilisao]

But using public funds to endorse a nation-wide recognized Federal Holiday is not.......

Just saying......

I never said that was acceptable, either.

 

[Mr Man]

Many, many people work Christmas day. Heck, even 7-11 is open on Christmas now. And lets not forget all of our CM friends who will give up their holiday so guests can enjoy theirs!




There is a nativity scene at my local fire station, and I'm pretty sure they will be open on Christmas.

Sure, but these are exceptions. The vast majority of places of work/schools etc will be closed on Christmas Day (and let's be honest Christmas Eve day at work is usually pretty slack).

Those dang firemen......having viewed the "baby in a manger"......and then help people regardless of their religion (or lack thereof). I like it!

The Nativity scene is a symbol. A symbol of hope and change (hehe) for all people of all faiths (and somehow, for those who have no faith too.....still working on this one.......)

How can this be wrong?

 

[ilisao]

that may be true, but please point me to the law that congress passed that established a religion or prohibited the free exercise there of, when a city places a nativity in the public square.

The guys that wrote the constitution were pretty smart, the knew the words seperation of church and state, yet they didn't use them did they?

I suggest you read the writings of our Founding Fathers to understand their intent in writing the Constitution.

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

Technically, giving everyone the day off for Christmas could be construed as promoting it. I haven't seen anyone protesting the day off though.

I think that's when we can tell people are really serious about that separation. Having coniptions and peddling petitions over dispays is small potatoes. If one truly wants to bring about "separation" then start circulating a petition to eliminate the paid day off from work for government workers. Now that's one I'd like to see started.

 

[Sparx]

i love and believe in god with ever fiber of my being.

however, i don't think that town money should be used to set up a nativity scene.

if you really want to do god's work, wooden animals in the town square is probably not the best way to spend your money. shelter the homeless, feed the hungry, give to children.

christmas is more than a tree, its more than presents, its more than a nativity scene. christmas is a feeling, a good spirit, a giving that we should celebrate more than once a year.

 

[rgf207]

seriously, there are much more pressing issues to focus on . it's a Nativity Scene. Why do people get all worked up over it. Is it offensive to you? Did it do something to hurt you?

If you don't like it, don't look at it. Seriously, why are we, as a society, so friggin uptight.

 

[Soarin08]

I young man came by yesterday wanting me to sign a petition to ban our town's nativity display.
I asked the young man to let me think about it.
When he came back this morning I signed it.
I decided that even though I am a christian.
There is a church one block down, I figured the nativity can be moved there.

( I do not believe he will get enough signatures, started kinda late if you ask me. )

I'm sorry, but as a Christian I would NEVER sign something that bans a display that shows what Christmas is all about. I would feel like I was betraying God in doing so.

 

[Slapstick]

seriously, there are much more pressing issues to focus on . it's a Nativity Scene. Why do people get all worked up over it. Is it offensive to you? Did it do something to hurt you?

If you don't like it, don't look at it. Seriously, why are we, as a society, so friggin uptight.

Because in Christianity Jesus is God. Non Christians believe in different God's or non at all. There has been such a campaign by the Religious right stating that people who do not "know" Jesus are never going to enter the gates of Heaven. It is very offensive to non believers. It's offensive to me!

 

[Master Mason]

Gregg..

In this case, it appears there were no other secular images included in the display besides the Nativity itself...and therefore...this particular scene, clearly rooted in Christianity ONLY...would not be allowed. And if someone were to sue the city, the city would lose based on these grounds. You know it...I know it...the ACLU knows it (as there have been many such cases)...and the city knows it. Their knees would buckle as soon as the lawsuit was slapped in their hands.

Your problably right that based on the way things are being done, however just because something is done or can be done doesn't make it right now does it??? I can think of a few things right off the bat that are currently legal and acceptable and the way things are that you completely disagree with as well.

Yes, but if you read the documents and statements that were discussed by our founding fathers that were eventually whittled down to the wording of the amendment, the intent of separation of church and state is clearly there.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god, [the people, in the 1st Amendment,] declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. -Thomas Jefferson

That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence, and therefore all men have an equal, natural and unalienable right to the exercise of religion according to the dictates of conscience, and that no particular sect or society ought to be favored or established by law in preference to others. - Virginia Constitution

The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext, infringed. - James Madison

That the people have an equal, natural, and unalienable right freely and peaceably to exercise their religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that no religious sect or society ought to be favored or established by law in preference to others. - New York

There are some major problems with your arguement. First of all the letter of Jefferson's you quoted was writen well after the Bill of rights was discussed and passed and if you read the whole letter it does not mean what you take it to mean when taken out of context.

And Madison's letter talks about establishement, which is a specific thing, where the state has said the state religion is xyz such as the church of england. As do the others.

There are many things to show you that seperation of church and state were not the intent of the founders. They opened their congressional sessions with prayer, they swore oaths with the words, so help me god, there has been a congressional chaplin since day one. In 1782 the Congress endorced the first US printing of the Bible in the printing with the words, "Resolved, that the United States in Congress assmebled recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States.".

The Mass constitution of the day required anyone elected to swear they were christian as did many others.

Their actions show that seperation of church and state was not what they meant, it wasn't until a 1948 Supreme Court Decision was made that that fraze was used in the lexicon.

 

[Master Mason]

I suggest you read the writings of our Founding Fathers to understand their intent in writing the Constitution.

I have, which is what I base my opinon on that the way it is currently "interpreted" is NOT what they meant, they didn't show it in their words or deeds. It wasn't until 1948 that the current "interpretation" came into being.

 

[daisax]

The Nativity scene is a symbol. A symbol of hope and change (hehe) for all people of all faiths

Even people who don't believe in Jesus? Why would they consider it a symbol of hope and change?

I'm sorry, but as a Christian I would NEVER sign something that bans a display that shows what Christmas is all about. I would feel like I was betraying God in doing so.

The decision to not spend public funding on something targeted to ONE segment of the population is very different from a decision to BAN people from doing it in their homes, places of worship, and private businesses.

This would merely be a decision by the people of a community to not spend public funds in a specific way.

 

[Slapstick]

I'm sorry, but as a Christian I would NEVER sign something that bans a display that shows what Christmas is all about. I would feel like I was betraying God in doing so.

Do you think God cares about a plaster of paris figurine?

Stay true to the commandments, love thy neighbor, and "do unto others as you would do unto yourself" and you will never betray God!

 

[rgf207]

Because in Christianity Jesus is God. Non Christians believe in different God's or non at all. There has been such a campaign by the Religious right stating that people who do not "know" Jesus are never going to enter the gates of Heaven. It is very offensive to non believers. It's offensive to me!

But if you don't believe in Christianity than why does it matter. That's Christian belief. If you don't believe in Christianity than whatever it says should mean nothing.

Shall we remove all Christmas Trees from public sinc that symbolizes Christmas, which not all believe in?

 

[Master Mason]

I never said that was acceptable, either.

Actually when Christmas was made a federal holiday it was done so with strictly secular wording,

By the way we also have a national day of prayer which was enacted by congress in 1952.

 

[mirmartinez]

I want to start off by saying I respect everyone's opinions. I was just wondering why the OP signed it as they did not state their reasoning in the first post. For those who gave their own explanations as to why they would or would not sign it, I respect your opinions.

With that said, I would have to say I would not sign it. The city I live in sponsors many displays and holiday festivities. We have a huge Santa and a snowman in front of city hall. There is a nativity on the other side of the building and a menorah near by. They have a "flying santa" come in via parachute every year and they have a Christmas parade. These displays and festivities have been going on for decades. I am sure the displays were paid for many years ago. If the city chooses to do these things, I have no problem with it. If they discontinued these things, I bet we'd have an uproar as I believe it's tradition, more than a statement for organized religion. I know times have changed since the city first started to do these things..I guess I just think there are more important things in life than getting in a tizzy about it all.

Main reason
Only christian beliefs are represented in my town.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Because in Christianity Jesus is God. Non Christians believe in different God's or non at all. There has been such a campaign by the Religious right stating that It is very offensive to non believers. It's offensive to me!

Well, we ARE celebrating Jesus's birthday so, I would except him to be a part of Christmas.

Not all Christins believe "people who do not "know" Jesus are never going to enter the gates of Heaven." Uh,...I've always been taught this IS GOD'S DECISION....NOT OURS.

BTW. I would bet the government workers constructing the Nativity are salaried employees. They will be paid whether or not they are sitting on their hands or putting up decorations.

 

[Goofyluver]

Your problably right that based on the way things are being done, however just because something is done or can be done doesn't make it right now does it??? I can think of a few things right off the bat that are currently legal and acceptable and the way things are that you completely disagree with as well.




There are some major problems with your arguement. First of all the letter of Jefferson's you quoted was writen well after the Bill of rights was discussed and passed and if you read the whole letter it does not mean what you take it to mean when taken out of context.

And Madison's letter talks about establishement, which is a specific thing, where the state has said the state religion is xyz such as the church of england. As do the others.

There are many things to show you that seperation of church and state were not the intent of the founders. They opened their congressional sessions with prayer, they swore oaths with the words, so help me god, there has been a congressional chaplin since day one. In 1782 the Congress endorced the first US printing of the Bible in the printing with the words, "Resolved, that the United States in Congress assmebled recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States.".

The Mass constitution of the day required anyone elected to swear they were christian as did many others.

Their actions show that seperation of church and state was not what they meant, it wasn't until a 1948 Supreme Court Decision was made that that fraze was used in the lexicon.

Your claim that the First Amendment and the Constitution doesn't provide for the separation of church and state is wrong. The SCOTUS is the body charged with the intrepetation of the Constitution and the First Amendment and has held that it is clear that the First Amendment mandates that there be a wall of separation. In the case of Everson v. Board of Education where the SCOTUS held the following:

The "establishment of religion" clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect "a wall of separation between church and State."

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/everson.html

This intrepretation has been followed by the Courts for the last 70 years and there are numerous decisions that make if very clear that the wall of separation of church and state is both real and is part of the Constitution.

 

[Soarin08]

But if you don't believe in Christianity than why does it matter. That's Christian belief. If you don't believe in Christianity than whatever it says should mean nothing.

Shall we remove all Christmas Trees from public sinc that symbolizes Christmas, which not all believe in?

And I suppose, to just make everyone who isn't religious in any way happy, we should also remove all references to Hanukkah and Kwanzaa, two holidays that are also celebrated this time of year.

According to Wikipedia, nearly 80% of Americans identify with Christian beliefs. I'd say that is a majority. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States