Pepper Spraying Students at UC-Davis

[mrodgers]

Pepper spray. Isn't it a form of non-lethal force? Sure, it looks pretty dramatic because it causes a violent reaction (which is the point). But I'm thinking pepper spray -along with its chemical cousin, mace -has saved a lot of lives over the last several years.

I think it's rough those protestors got squirted in the face with pepper spray, but it is hard to fault the cops who were just making the next logical move after having asked the crowd to disburse, and then saying that if they did not move the spray would be coming. To not have sprayed would have meant that the police's words were an empty threat.

I try to put myself in the shoes of the protestors. I just don't think I would have been surprised or outraged to have been sprayed. If I am intentionally not listening to or complying with legal orders of a police officer I should expect the officer to assist me in moving toward compliance, even if through use of non-lethal force. I would not get to pick and choose how I would like to be handled by the police. If they wanted to drag me off the sidewalk and to jail that would be up them; if they wanted to pepper spray me that would be up them as well.

And there you have it. A non-lethal force was used and used effectively. They were blocking the sidewalk and were told to move. It is a sidewalk of a state university in which they have every right to protest and set upon the public sidewalk, but everyone else whom is not involved in the protest also has the right to use said sidewalk. One person's rights (the protester's) ends when it infringes on another's rights. Thus, they were ordered to move and told what would result if they did not comply, and they chose not comply.

 

[Lucille1963]

Pepper spray. Isn't it a form of non-lethal force? Sure, it looks pretty dramatic because it causes a violent reaction (which is the point). But I'm thinking pepper spray -along with its chemical cousin, mace -has saved a lot of lives over the last several years.

I think it's rough those protestors got squirted in the face with pepper spray, but it is hard to fault the cops who were just making the next logical move after having asked the crowd to disburse, and then saying that if they did not move the spray would be coming. To not have sprayed would have meant that the police's words were an empty threat.

I try to put myself in the shoes of the protestors. I just don't think I would have been surprised or outraged to have been sprayed. If I am intentionally not listening to or complying with legal orders of a police officer I should expect the officer to assist me in moving toward compliance, even if through use of non-lethal force. I would not get to pick and choose how I would like to be handled by the police. If they wanted to drag me off the sidewalk and to jail that would be up them; if they wanted to pepper spray me that would be up them as well.

As stated a few posts up, the spraying was not "the next logical move" nor was the officer giving "legal orders". To re-quote University of California’s Universitywide Police Policies and Administrative Procedures: “Chemical agents are weapons used to minimize the potential for injury to officers, offenders, or other persons. They should only be used in situations where such force reasonably appears justified and necessary.”

Additionally, from UC's policy "“Arrestees and suspects shall be treated in a humane manner … they shall not be subject to physical force except as required to subdue violence or ensure detention. No officer shall strike an arrestee or suspect except in self-defense, to prevent an escape, or to prevent injury to another person.”

 

[Chris the CPA]

I support the right for ALL Americans to protest wherever they want about whatever they want peacefully without being pepper sprayed. Please, protest on my sidewalk-if I agree with you, I'll join you. If I don't, I'll give you a friendly wave as I pass by. I thought that would be how most Americans would feel, but maybe I'm wrong. Or, it could be more of the unique universe that is the DIS.

What if they sat in front of your driveway so you could not move your car and would not move when asked?

 

[Acklander]

What if they sat in front of your driveway so you could not move your car and would not move when asked?

What's the point of "what If's". There is no "what if". There is clear video showing exactly what happened, which is students were sitting peacefully and the campus police broke procedure.

How about asking what if the police followed procedure as required by their job instead of coming off like bullies who weren't provoked in any way.

 

[snarlingcoyote]

What if they sat in front of your driveway so you could not move your car and would not move when asked?

But they weren't sitting in a private driveway. They were sitting in a public space. That's a specious argument.

 

[cornflake]

Seems like I do vaguely remember the Phillie flak. As you said, police officers have to make these decisions all the time, and I feel sorry for them that they do. I'm guessing the pepper spray was pretty much a matter of following established procedure.
The very best plan would be to move when the police ask you to move.

No, the pepper spray is NOT established procedure for moving peaceful, non-violent protesters.

As I said upthread - you protest, the University calls the cops, you refuse to move, they tell you to move or they'll move you, you sit down and link arms, they say move or you'll be arrested, you go limp, they use plastic cuffs, pick you up and carry you to the buses, to the station, process you, desk ticket, release, voila.

There's no part of that involving weaponry! There has never, in the decades this has been the standard procedure, been weaponry.

As for the best plan being to move when the cops tell you to - I honestly can't believe the number of people who appear to for themselves or say they'd tell their kids to just do whatever a cop says, apparently under any circumstance.

They're staging a protest. Of course the cops tell you to move - of course you... don't.

As to whether the U has the right to tell them to move, it's a public school, hence there's a debate to be had as to how private their sidewalks actually are.

 

[No.17CherryTreeLane]

But they weren't sitting in a private driveway. They were sitting in a public space. That's a specious argument.

And since it is a public sidewalk, they did not have the right to obstruct it.

 

[cornflake]

I think the difference is in who is shooting the film. Abu Ghraib was soldiers exclusively. It didn't happen in a public place, so let's exclude that one. Except for the fact that the photos were taken on phones and not cameras, that one could've been set 60 years ago.

Birmingham, Rodney King, even, heck, let's go back to the Boston Massacare, those were incidents that were recorded by professionals, who are knowledge gatekeepers. People who MADE the news and decided what we knew and when we knew it.

The gates are wide open today. There are no gatekeepers. Anything that happens in a public place or where there are bystanders with phones may well get recorded and put on youtube. From there, it can go viral without touching the former gatekeepers.

I say 15 years ago, because that's when enough people had video recorders. But the availability of it in the past 6 years or so - whip out the phone in your pocket and start shooting, then post it to youtube within 3 minutes and alert your friends on Facebook within 5 minutes - that's game changing.

Wasn't Rodney King filmed by a random person with a camera? Like out their window or something? That's why I mentioned King.

 

[eliza61]

No, the pepper spray is NOT established procedure for moving peaceful, non-violent protesters.

As I said upthread - you protest, the University calls the cops, you refuse to move, they tell you to move or they'll move you, you sit down and link arms, they say move or you'll be arrested, you go limp, they use plastic cuffs, pick you up and carry you to the buses, to the station, process you, desk ticket, release, voila.

There's no part of that involving weaponry! There has never, in the decades this has been the standard procedure, been weaponry.

As for the best plan being to move when the cops tell you to - I honestly can't believe the number of people who appear to for themselves or say they'd tell their kids to just do whatever a cop says, apparently under any circumstance.

They're staging a protest. Of course the cops tell you to move - of course you... don't.

As to whether the U has the right to tell them to move, it's a public school, hence there's a debate to be had as to how private their sidewalks actually are.

And amazingly their usually the first folks who scream some one is turning us into Socialist!!! LOL. I really believe there is a reason why free speech, freedom to assemble and freedom of religion are the FIRST amendments because when you lose them, every thing else is gone.

What amazes me is why we seem to be so willing to give it away for the sake of "oh I'm going to be inconvenience"..

Please tell me what social change for the better that was effect where every one was happy and didn't have their lives inconvenience.

 

[snarlingcoyote]

Wasn't Rodney King filmed by a random person with a camera? Like out their window or something? That's why I mentioned King.

I went to Wikipedia.

The Rodney King beating occurred in 1991, so twenty one years ago.

Per Wikipedia's entry:

"Unseen by those involved, George Holliday, a private citizen, caught the lengthy beating on video from his apartment near the intersection of Foothill Blvd and Osborne St. in Lake View Terrace. He contacted the police about a videotape of the incident but was dismissed. He then went to KTLA television with his videotape, which broadcast it on air in its entirety.[19] The footage became a media sensation. Portions of it were aired hundreds, if not thousands, of times around the world, and it 'turned what would otherwise have been a violent, but soon forgotten, encounter between Los Angeles police and Rodney King into one of the most widely watched and discussed incidents of its kind'."

So yeah, twenty years ago. We're both right on this one then. It was someone with a video recorder who captured it, probably one of those old huge ginormous ones. Not something you could carry around in a pocket though. The beating occured outside of Holliday's home and Holliday had a video camera. It depended upon a confluence of events and random chance and on Holliday's persistence in getting the video out, then on the news media actually reporting the video.

In today's world it would be a foregone conclusion. Click. Record. Click. Post for the whole world to see. Of course, you'd be competing with everyone else at the scene with a smart phone. . .

 

[undertheradar]

So I shouldn't get involved why? Once again because I live in NJ, I don't get an opinion?

May I suggest that if you are upset about the dream act or illegal immigration than you put together your own demonstration.

Seems to me those "narrow minded" students have more gumption than you do. they are at least putting their butts on the line (no matter what you think of them). What are you doing? Get your message out there if you feel that an injustice is being committed.

Got an illegal immigration problem? seems to me one way to solve that is to stop hiring Illegals. I could be terrible niave about it though. start cracking down on the people that are hiring them.



And Last but not least, the thread was about Pepper spraying some kids . So regardless to whether or not they are for or against the dream act, spoiled kids with nothing to do or all illegal aliens from the planet Zoorg, In this country there is a thing called the constitution. It pretty much covers all states including California. People get to protest without a gestapo swooping down doing bodily harm to them as long as they stay peaceful.

As someone who is overtaxed and California is wanting to increase taxes to help lessen the burden on these students by taking money from my household, yes, I believe that taxpaying residents of California have a vested interest in these actions. If research was done, you would see that households with income under $30,000.00 per year pay zero state income tax, the rest of us pay much more. Again, why shouldn't everyone in the nation or the world for that matter have a say in how California funds higher education. I know that I don't believe that anyone other than Californians should be deciding how to spend state funds. Unless of course you would like Californians helping New Jersey residents find new ways to help fund the raided pension funds, just as was done here. Exactly how do you propose to fund these discounted educations without further raiding of pension funds? You do not have an unlimited source of funding and since less than 50% of residents contribute via income taxes, how much higher do you think personal taxes can be raised before there is a revolt of the taxpayers who fund this little state known as California?

As for hiring illegals, isn't Camden's Campbells Soup one of the biggest violators of hiring illegals or has that been corrected in the past year? Surely the residents of New Jersey don't partake in hiring day labor or undocumented domestic help?

In regards to police activity, it looks as if Philadelphia is as bad as it was in the 70's. If a little pepper spray is so unsettling, what about when city of Philadelphia employees set off the incidiary device that resulted in all of the homes lost from the attempt to rid MOVE from Philadelphia?

Surely you have learned that the former Los Angeles police chief is being hired to investigate the UC-Davis pepper spray incident? This is questionable given that the federal government gained oversight for actions against minorities during his command.

You are aware that students were instructed multiple times to disburse? Ignoring the instructions of the police crosses the line with regards to peaceful demonstration. Which part of being asked to disburse were you implying violated the Constitution?

 

[Chris the CPA]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterPan09
I support the right for ALL Americans to protest wherever they want about whatever they want peacefully without being pepper sprayed. Please, protest on my sidewalk-if I agree with you, I'll join you. If I don't, I'll give you a friendly wave as I pass by. I thought that would be how most Americans would feel, but maybe I'm wrong. Or, it could be more of the unique universe that is the DIS.

What if they sat in front of your driveway so you could not move your car and would not move when asked?

That was in response to the above which was presented as a hypothetical.

 

[snarlingcoyote]

Ya' know, as fast as Roger Williams, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, Sam Adams and James Otis among others are probably spinning in their graves right now to hear the right to protest dismissed they could probably power a few small New England towns if Entergy would just hook their caskets up to a generator. . .

 

[snarlingcoyote]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterPan09
I support the right for ALL Americans to protest wherever they want about whatever they want peacefully without being pepper sprayed. Please, protest on my sidewalk-if I agree with you, I'll join you. If I don't, I'll give you a friendly wave as I pass by. I thought that would be how most Americans would feel, but maybe I'm wrong. Or, it could be more of the unique universe that is the DIS.

What if they sat in front of your driveway so you could not move your car and would not move when asked?

That was in response to the above which was presented as a hypothetical.[/QUOTE]


But protesting on private land is NOT the same as protesting in a public place. UC Davis is a public university. Your hypothetical is not an apples to apples comparison.

 

[Chris the CPA]

What if they sat in front of your driveway so you could not move your car and would not move when asked?

What's the point of "what If's". There is no "what if". There is clear video showing exactly what happened, which is students were sitting peacefully and the campus police broke procedure.

How about asking what if the police followed procedure as required by their job instead of coming off like bullies who weren't provoked in any way.

What procedure was that? Do you have access to the policy and procedures manual of the UC-Davis campus police.

 

[Chris the CPA]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterPan09
I support the right for ALL Americans to protest wherever they want about whatever they want peacefully without being pepper sprayed. Please, protest on my sidewalk-if I agree with you, I'll join you. If I don't, I'll give you a friendly wave as I pass by. I thought that would be how most Americans would feel, but maybe I'm wrong. Or, it could be more of the unique universe that is the DIS.

What if they sat in front of your driveway so you could not move your car and would not move when asked?

That was in response to the above which was presented as a hypothetical.[/QUOTE]


But protesting on private land is NOT the same as protesting in a public place. UC Davis is a public university. Your hypothetical is not an apples to apples comparison.

That does not make the land public. It is indeed private and if you don't believe me try and go into any building on the UC-Davis campus whenever you want and see what happens. Under your reasoning we could just go into the Whitehouse and take a nap in the Lincoln bedroom. The public does not own UC-Davis.

 

[LuvsDragonflies]

As someone who is overtaxed and California is wanting to increase taxes to help lessen the burden on these students by taking money from my household, yes, I believe that taxpaying residents of California have a vested interest in these actions. If research was done, you would see that households with income under $30,000.00 per year pay zero state income tax, the rest of us pay much more. Again, why shouldn't everyone in the nation or the world for that matter have a say in how California funds higher education. I know that I don't believe that anyone other than Californians should be deciding how to spend state funds. Unless of course you would like Californians helping New Jersey residents find new ways to help fund the raided pension funds, just as was done here. Exactly how do you propose to fund these discounted educations without further raiding of pension funds? You do not have an unlimited source of funding and since less than 50% of residents contribute via income taxes, how much higher do you think personal taxes can be raised before there is a revolt of the taxpayers who fund this little state known as California?

As for hiring illegals, isn't Camden's Campbells Soup one of the biggest violators of hiring illegals or has that been corrected in the past year? Surely the residents of New Jersey don't partake in hiring day labor or undocumented domestic help?

In regards to police activity, it looks as if Philadelphia is as bad as it was in the 70's. If a little pepper spray is so unsettling, what about when city of Philadelphia employees set off the incidiary device that resulted in all of the homes lost from the attempt to rid MOVE from Philadelphia?

Surely you have learned that the former Los Angeles police chief is being hired to investigate the UC-Davis pepper spray incident? This is questionable given that the federal government gained oversight for actions against minorities during his command.

You are aware that students were instructed multiple times to disburse? Ignoring the instructions of the police crosses the line with regards to peaceful demonstration. Which part of being asked to disburse were you implying violated the Constitution?

Can someone tell me what the heck she is talking about? Is it just NJ people that aren't supposed to comment on CA incidents or is there a booklet somewhere? I don't want to insult anyone (well, not usually ) but I'm getting a persecuted feeling here...

 

[undertheradar]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterPan09
I support the right for ALL Americans to protest wherever they want about whatever they want peacefully without being pepper sprayed. Please, protest on my sidewalk-if I agree with you, I'll join you. If I don't, I'll give you a friendly wave as I pass by. I thought that would be how most Americans would feel, but maybe I'm wrong. Or, it could be more of the unique universe that is the DIS.

What if they sat in front of your driveway so you could not move your car and would not move when asked?

That was in response to the above which was presented as a hypothetical.[/QUOTE]


But protesting on private land is NOT the same as protesting in a public place. UC Davis is a public university. Your hypothetical is not an apples to apples comparison.

Though funded by the state, the property would still be considered private, would it not?

 

[undertheradar]

Can someone tell me what the heck she is talking about? Is it just NJ people that aren't supposed to comment on CA incidents or is there a booklet somewhere? I don't want to insult anyone (well, not usually ) but I'm getting a persecuted feeling here...

What's your question? For the record, I was born and raised in New Jersey.

 

[LuvsDragonflies]

That does not make the land public. It is indeed private and if you don't believe me try and go into any building on the UC-Davis campus whenever you want and see what happens. Under your reasoning we could just go into the Whitehouse and take a nap in the Lincoln bedroom. The public does not own UC-Davis.

But, what about the students that pay to go there and live there? Are they allowed to sit on their own sidewalks? You know, the ones they sorta rent when they pay tuition for the time the attend the school.