Overcrowded classes - can they force her out?

[NHdisneylover]

Everywhere I attended, taught and had my kids in school in the US usually kept the kids with the same teacher for a full year class, but this was never guaranteed and could be changed by the school if there was a need, without the parent or student needing to give their approval. It was not common, but if something came up (like an IEP or bullying issues as stated upthread) a change could and would be made and it was not up for debate.

I agree with whoever pointed out that they seemed to be trying to be nice by moving friends together.

 

[Couchy]

Me again. To clarify - he wants them to move beginning 2nd semester which does not start until Jan 20th so they still rightfully belong in his class. He is a very good teacher and they prefer to stay in his class if possible. The other teacher also happens to be the football coach and he is a fantastic football coach. I will leave it at that. DD has texted me further between periods and says she told him firmly but politely that she intends to stay w/his class through the end of the year. He asked if she wanted to sit on the floor and she said no. At that point he stormed out, the bell rang and she went on to her next class. I emailed the GC early this morning, and after hearing this I left her a voicemail. Almost 2 hours later still waiting for a return call. She is a good kid and he is a good teacher, I just think now something more is going on internally and I don't want her to be penalized for something that doesn't involve her in any way, shape or form. The longer it is taking for the GC to return my email/call the more ticked I am getting too. Sorry to have riled y'all up too but I do appreciate the insight from others.

A couple of things to note from a teacher's perspective...

1. she told him firmly but politely that she intends to stay w/his class through the end of the year. He asked if she wanted to sit on the floor and she said no. At that point he stormed out, the bell rang and she went on to her next class. I can see the teacher asking if she wanted to sit on the floor... I sometimes make a comment that if is taken out of the situation can look bad, but I can see the teacher ( who is probably also frustrated with this new situation) asking this to make a point that there really isn't a choice for either one of them

2. I have been asked several times to pick students to transfer out of a class to allow an IEP student or other at risk student in. I fight it every time. I don't want to pick. I want Student Service to pick. They want us to pick because they feel we might know who might be easiest to transfer out in terms of making a transition into the next class based on performance in this class or teaching styles. It is HARD. I hate it and it frustrates me to no end. I bet that teacher feels awful and is frustrated.

3. Almost 2 hours later still waiting for a return call. Lots of reasons for this. The counselor might be in a conference. They might be handling an emergency. They have to talk to the teacher first which can be difficult to coordinate while teacher is teaching and counselor is attending to appointments. The switch hasn't happened yet. So it probably is not on the highest priority list of things the counselor has to get done right now. I know it is to you and your daughter but in the big scheme the counselor may feel like they can talk to the teacher at the end of the day and get back with you tomorrow since the switch won't occur until Jan 20th


Good luck, this is a frustrating situation I know

 

[mhsjax]

It is done here. The only classes that are full year classes are state tested classes--Alg I, Eng II, US History and Biology I. Everything else is either a semester class or a 9 weeks class.

We are on a block schedule.

And the year long classes can either be with the same teacher or with two different teachers. DD has been lucky, so far and had the same teacher for both semesters, some kids haven't. Some have been moved because it was thought that they would do better with a different teacher, some because it works out better for their schedule, some just because its the way their schedule was done.

Like I said there maybe a few electives that are a semester only, but my kids haven't had these in HS. And funny you should mention "biology" This is the the class that the OP is talking about and yet people are saying that changing teachers is normal for their area. I would find this to be an interruption to education. Teachers shouldn't randomly change after a semester for the same class. I would not send my child to a school that did this on a routine bases, no continuity. I find this to be a flaw in the school system, if this is a common practice.

 

[redrosesix]

My freshman DD came home upset today because her biology teacher told her and another student that due to an overcrowded class 2nd semester he was moving the 2 of them to another teacher's class. Problem is the other teacher is not the best of teachers and DD is doing well and likes the teacher/class she is currently in. So my question - can they do this? And shouldn't they have notified the parent and NOT the 14yr old kid? And now can I insist they don't move her? The class wasn't overcrowded 1st semester. I'm not sure how to proceed with this one...

they wouldn't be able to do that here -- when my DD was younger they had to move a bunch of kids to add another class for her grade. They got in big trouble by letting the kids know before the parents (although we didn't know who was moving until a week later).

My guess is that someone from the other class didn't like the teacher/teaching style and the parent asked for their child to be placed with the better teacher. I'd tell the guidance counselor if they have to move someone, make the kid with the lowest grade move. Why should the A students be punished?
Horrible to make a kid move mid year and have to relearn the new teacher's learning style and homework/test routine. By now other kids have the hang of it. Your daughter's grade may go down if moved because this teacher may have different expectations.
I've never heard of moving mid year by force and this tiger mom would have been at the school complaining this morning. Most schools aren't going to care if a 14 year old complains but they will listen to a parent.

This is a good idea since clearly the ones with the lowest grades may benefit from a different teaching style. Sounds like they moved the ones who they thought they could get away with moving.

Thank you and I agree. However, just received a text from DD as this class is 1st period. Teacher approached both girls and said something along the lines of 'thought you were both ok with moving'. They said no, we like it here and don't want to move. He said he has no control over students placing in but can kick out. Asked them if they would like to sit on the floor. They shook their heads no. He stormed out of the room. At this point she now has sent the text. Class ends in 10 minutes and I an really miffed. Both girls are A students and have had no issues w/him prior to this. Something's up and I can't figure out what but final exams begin Monday and this is extra stress that these kids don't need.

Are you certain you want her in his class now? How can she ever forget this -- it's going to change the way she feels about him and being in his class. Seriously, they forget 14 y.o.'s are still kids sometimes -- which is why they can't drive or vote.

I'm with the moms who think you should have been informed before her. Much less drama that way if the kids don't have to be involved, esp if the move doesn't happen. Sure she is old enough to do some things on her own, but ultimately her course in life is your responsibility until she is no longer a minor. Kids left to make their own mistakes can make huge mistakes, the ramifications of which they don't understand until they are much much older and it is too late.

 

[redrosesix]

That is so strange. Has your dd said that a new student moved into the class? If so, that would shed some light since she would know if the student was a troublemaker type, or if that kid was getting bullied etc.

It seems kind of silly to me that the class if over by one kid (seems they want to move 2 just to be nice and not single out one kid )

This may be a stupid question but if they are over by one student, why not just move an extra desk into the room and have everybody stay? Surely there is room to squeeze one more desk in the room.

This. The desk's feelings won't be hurt be moving it to another class. It won't take time to adjust and will do just fine. But maybe that would involve some union or school board code ie. way more important than an actual student.

 

[kamik86]

When I was in high school the only time we had teachers change mid year was when a teacher suddenly retired (without much warning not sure if there was a health reason or anything for this though) mid year.

This left the school short on english teachers during a hiring freeze. Due to this some of the history teachers with english minors and not full schedules had to teach an english class. They moved full classes then not individuals to other teachers but it moved alot of classes because some english classes were more likely then others to get a history teacher (Such as juniors and seniors that were past taking the state testing for english that you need to pass to graduate)

 

[Mkrop]

I dont care if this is high school or not, they better not be moving my kid without a really good reason, and no too crowded is not a good reason when they had 28 other kids to pick from. I want to know why it is MY kid being moved. And I may be projecting my own situation on things bc I have found over the years that they do move the nice easygoing (although it does stress them out, they just dont show it) kids whose parents dont usually make a stink about things.

They should have asked for volunteers, maybe Johnny Simth or Suzie Jones cant stand this teacher and would love the change, or maybe like someone else mentioned, someone else could use a different teaching style. If no one volunteers, than make it a random selection.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Yes, here, even the primary core subjects are block classes that go only by Semester. It is more common now than some might realize.

And, I do feel like the teacher is kind of caught in the middle here as well. I do give him consideration for that.
But, please, find a better way to deal with it than go one-on-one and be unprofessional with a 14 year old girl...

And, OP, please take NO offense here...
But, many of us are familiar with the all too common 'teen attitude'...
I would not be too surprised if the fact that the student was all "THIS is what I will be doing... I do intend to be in this class..." could have come off as disrespectful to the adult.
No judgment... Just sayin'.

OP, I do hope you get a return call soon.
It does sound like something is really going on behind the scenes here.

Again, don't get too 'riled up' until you get the full picture.
That would not work in your favor!!!!!

Again, good luck...

 

[GaSleepingBeautyFan]

it's pretty normal in our district. My son has been moved nearly every year in High School. He's easy going so I wonder if that's why.

It's never caused a problem for him but if I didn't want him to move classes I'm sure I could have contacted the school and let them know that I didn't want him to move and they'd have chosen someone else.

In 2 instances he actually did better in the new class than in the original ones. The other 2 he did the same.

 

[bananasplitkids]

When I was in high school a few years ago changing classes at semester was common. For example the first semester you had biology 1st period but the second semester you wanted to take an elective that only meets 1st period. You would then have to switch biology classes at semester. Also I've seen where after the first couple of weeks when schools know exactly how many students they have they will sometimes have to downsize teachers and shift students around to accommodate.

 

[Susiequsie60]

I work in a middle school, and have 2 kids who are out of college. From my perspective, on both sides of the issue, I would NOT have gotten involved at the h.s. level. Middle school, yes. High school, no.

Actually, in that exact situation, neither of my kids would have even wanted me to call and handle it for them. Basically, we've taught them from an early age that life is not always fair, you don't always get what you want, and you really do need to learn to adjust to changes.

And honestly, as far as it being "critical" - I really feel . . . not so much. It's a science class? I'm pretty sure there aren't many freshman classes that are going to make or break any student's ultimate educational path.

I think your daughter could have learned a couple of valuable lessons here. If she transferred to the other class, it would be a good example of how you're not always going to be able to work with or learn with the exact person you want. She might have learned that the switch wasn't such a bad thing after all. If she was really super insistent about not wanting to leave the class, she could have spoken to her Guidance Counselor directly. That would have really been an invaluable lesson on advocating for herself. If she still had to transfer to the other class, so be it.

That's just my opinion. I understand that other people feel differently on the level of parent involvement that's necessary in h.s.

 

[Mkrop]

I work in a middle school, and have 2 kids who are out of college. From my perspective, on both sides of the issue, I would NOT have gotten involved at the h.s. level. Middle school, yes. High school, no.

Actually, in that exact situation, neither of my kids would have even wanted me to call and handle it for them. Basically, we've taught them from an early age that life is not always fair, you don't always get what you want, and you really do need to learn to adjust to changes.

And honestly, as far as it being "critical" - I really feel . . . not so much. It's a science class? I'm pretty sure there aren't many freshman classes that are going to make or break any student's ultimate educational path.

I think your daughter could have learned a couple of valuable lessons here. If she transferred to the other class, it would be a good example of how you're not always going to be able to work with or learn with the exact person you want. She might have learned that the switch wasn't such a bad thing after all. If she was really super insistent about not wanting to leave the class, she could have spoken to her Guidance Counselor directly. That would have really been an invaluable lesson on advocating for herself. If she still had to transfer to the other class, so be it.That's just my opinion. I understand that other people feel differently on the level of parent involvement that's necessary in h.s.

I also think she could have learned some valuable lessons, like you dont just accept being moved without a good definitive reason. Stand your ground and dont allow yourself to be a doormat who is moved when you are thriving in a particular environment. It can spun any way you want.

I am so glad my son goes to a high school that sees the value of the school, parents and students working TOGETHER to further their education.

 

[CaliBear]

I love how many people are so quick to believe that the teacher stormed out of his own classroom- and judge him for it to boot. No other profession has as many people frothing at the mouth in judgment over every negative story, verified or not.

 

[luvsJack]

Like I said there maybe a few electives that are a semester only, but my kids haven't had these in HS. And funny you should mention "biology" This is the the class that the OP is talking about and yet people are saying that changing teachers is normal for their area. I would find this to be an interruption to education. Teachers shouldn't randomly change after a semester for the same class. I would not send my child to a school that did this on a routine bases, no continuity. I find this to be a flaw in the school system, if this is a common practice.

It isn't that its common but its not uncommon either. DD has 4 classes a term (she hasn't taken any 9 weeks classes yet). One is choir which is 2nd block and cannot change. One is her whole year class (Eng II this year). The other two are whatever she needs--this time its Alg II and Phy. Science. If Alg. II had not been offered during the two blocks that she had an opening, Eng II could have been changed to another teacher during one of those blocks to open up a time for Alg II or Phy Science.

For students that are in, let's say, choir and basketball, they have to schedule around two fixed classes. (well, I guess they are whole year classes but they aren't academic) Those students are more likely to have a different teacher for the second term of a class. Since they are all supposed to be covering the same thing in a term, it doesn't really cause an issue.

Its not a flaw, its just the way it has to be sometimes. I would be more upset about there being 31 in a class!! Too many, imo. DD's largest class, not counting choir, is 20.

DD was in Biology last year. They had lab during the second term so there was a very definite limit to the number of students in the class. There are only x number of spots in the lab to work. Pulling in another desk would not help.

 

[Susiequsie60]

I also think she could have learned some valuable lessons, like you dont just accept being moved without a good definitive reason. Stand your ground and dont allow yourself to be a doormat who is moved when you are thriving in a particular environment. It can spun any way you want.

I am so glad my son goes to a high school that sees the value of the school, parents and students working TOGETHER to further their education.

You're right. That is also a lesson. But I personally think the advocating for herself is actually the more important aspect. And you know what: maybe there is a great definitive reason. As many have said before, it could have to do with bullying, IEP, or some other reason where the school might not be able to give all the details.

That's a lesson in life to though: Sometimes you DON'T get what you want and it's not always fair.

If this is a big enough issue to the student that they want to really fight it and see it through, she should go ahead and knock herself out. Me? I would have a serious discussion with my kid(s) to see if this is really the battle they want to fight. Believe me, my children have had some wonderful teachers and they've had some not so wonderful teachers. Have I mentioned that I think it's important that they learn that it's all part of life?

Maybe I've got a little bit of a different perspective on it because my 2 are older. They do wonderfully in advocating for themselves. They're definitely not doormats. Nor are they dependent on me to either do it for them or teach them how to do it at this point in life. I did it for them when they were very young, and I guided them and taught them how to do it and had them do it on their own in h.s. It's a great practicing field for college!!

 

[LilyWDW]

This. The desk's feelings won't be hurt be moving it to another class. It won't take time to adjust and will do just fine. But maybe that would involve some union or school board code ie. way more important than an actual student.

Or maybe there is not room for another desk? As in actual, physical, room. Some classrooms are already as full as can be allowed based off of space requirements. It is not always just easy to "add a desk". I had a friend who was a teacher and she asked my help in setting up her room so that it met ADA requirements (I am a designer who has worked with ADA space planning before). It wasn't easy.

I love how many people are so quick to believe that the teacher stormed out of his own classroom- and judge him for it to boot. No other profession has as many people frothing at the mouth in judgment over every negative story, verified or not.

I agree. I know a few 14 year olds and "stormed out of the room" could be anything from the teacher actually storming out to the teacher leaving the room normally to the teacher doing a ballet dance as they left.

 

[unbeknownst]

Me again. To clarify - he wants them to move beginning 2nd semester which does not start until Jan 20th so they still rightfully belong in his class. He is a very good teacher and they prefer to stay in his class if possible. The other teacher also happens to be the football coach and he is a fantastic football coach. I will leave it at that. DD has texted me further between periods and says she told him firmly but politely that she intends to stay w/his class through the end of the year. He asked if she wanted to sit on the floor and she said no. At that point he stormed out, the bell rang and she went on to her next class. I emailed the GC early this morning, and after hearing this I left her a voicemail. Almost 2 hours later still waiting for a return call. She is a good kid and he is a good teacher, I just think now something more is going on internally and I don't want her to be penalized for something that doesn't involve her in any way, shape or form. The longer it is taking for the GC to return my email/call the more ticked I am getting too. Sorry to have riled y'all up too but I do appreciate the insight from others.

I am a school counselor and I can take up to 24 hours to call a parent back (depending on what on is going, obviously if my schedule is not super busy, you'll get a more immediate response) - 2 hours is nothing in the grand scheme of things. I am currently in the process of scheduling ALL of my underclassmen for 2014-2015 school year and I didn't even check my messages until 4 today. Plus, even if the counselor got your message, he or she would have to wait to call you back until after they'd spoken with the teacher. I wouldn't get too worked up over a lack of response.

Ultimately, it sounds like some one is going to have to move out of the class. It may or may not end up being your daughter, but you'll get more flies with honey than with vinegar. Ex. if you go in saying your daughter will absolutely NOT be moving, you'll probably run head first into a road block. If it truly was a RANDOM selection, it is unlikely the counselor can change it unless someone else volunteers. Otherwise, we'd just be dealing with the next unhappy random selection parent/student and we'd never get anything done.

And, at least in my building, it also normally ends up being an administration decision...

 

[acebatonfan]

I know how you feel about HS scheduling. At my old school, particularly last year, I noticed how hypocritical the GC's are.

First, I understand the need for rescheduling, but I do not like their double standards. During the beginning of last year, my friend and I were active members of the school's performing orchestra. The upper administration mandated an event for us to perform at (local grocery store opening). Prior to this event, she and I had issues with our math teacher who was more donkey-like than anything else. We went up to him with our field trip permission forms and asked if he could sign the forms. He declined, and we were both placed between a rock and a hard place; we could not go to the event and get a zero for that assignment in our orchestra class, or we could go to the event, be declared as unexcused for that teacher, and get a zero for that day's work. We both decided that it would be best to get a schedule change, especially when we were expected to have more events during the school year.

Seeking our GC's advice, we had our parents write letters to the principal expressing our wishes for a schedule change. I was lucky and was able to have my schedule changed, whereas my friend had to sacrifice dropping a few classes in order to make that change (the other classes were full). She decided to stick with the teacher, and she commented later in the year that it is really obvious he is obviously "on his toes" and trying to not receive any more complaints from administration. Rumors were that other students were complaining about him, but, because he is the coach of the state-winning football team, there would be an uproar if he was fired.

On the other hand, I noticed that the GC's will overfill a class if one of their "favorites" want to get in. I had a pottery class during the spring semester the same year, and we originally started out with more students than throwing wheels provided. Less than a week after the semester began, four to five more students joined the class, even though it was overly full.

With the GC's, they seem to also make compromises to these "favorites." My friend was in a tough situation when scheduling for last year's classes (note that this was during the previous spring; no classes were actually "filled"). She wanted to take both AP US History and Honors German. She talked to her GC, and he said that there is no way she could fit both. The class president and his friend were in the same situation, but the GC's compromised and scheduled him to take Honors German every other day (originally an all-year everyday class) in order to fit in APUSH.

There needs to be communication between you, the teacher, the GC, and possibly the principal. Especially if it is this far in the school year, there should not be that many dramatic scheduling changes. If there is someone that needs to be away from the other teacher's class, that person is the one that needs to compromise, even if it means getting rid of an elective or non-required class.

 

[Beachbumpirates]

Situation is resolved and both girls are staying put. Turns out current teacher has had 31 students all along and other teacher (football coach) has had 22. Now that football season is over they must be trying to even the loads or current teacher has complained maybe? But this is all according to GC who said she was not capable of handling such a situation and passed it along to asst principal. She also said they use 'overcrowding' as code speak when ever they need to move students (ie bully, IEP, etc). Surprised she said as much as she did. I asked her if the other student would be staying put as well. She hesitated at first, I told her she was at my house (which she is). She said well I should not be discussing this with you but yes she is too. Good thing this was not HIPAA. Asst principal apologized and said teacher should not have handled as did, we should have received a letter prior to him talking to the students. Moving forward I am a bit skeptical about my HS after this situation and the entire staff.

 

[Skywalker]

I also think she could have learned some valuable lessons, like you dont just accept being moved without a good definitive reason. Stand your ground and dont allow yourself to be a doormat who is moved when you are thriving in a particular environment. It can spun any way you want.

Well it doesn't always work that way in life. If they do some restructuring at work and you are moved to a different dept. for example, try insisting that you're staying put because you want to and see how far you get lol.

I also don't understand being upset. Every year since kindergarten our school sends out a letter to the parents saying that things may change, due to enrollment, staffing or whatever issues, and that IF you're child is effected, it would be better if the parents would please help them deal with change to and realize that change is a part of life. This makes more sense to me than running to the school