No more Prince or Princesses

[Jonfw2]

By the way, you do realize this was the same thing they once said about women wearing pants, right?

Yep. Times change.

But pants are a practical improvement whereas tattoos are strictly an appearance change.

 

[Mrs.AMC]

Yep. Times change.

But pants are a practical improvement whereas tattoos are strictly an appearance change.

You miss the point and you dang well know it
Some back in the day fought tooth and nail to keep women in their dresses.
Practical has nothing whatsoever to do with it

 

[Jonfw2]

You miss the point and you dang well know it
Some back in the day fought tooth and nail to keep women in their dresses.
Practical has nothing whatsoever to do with it

Haha. It absolutely does, but whatever.

 

[whiteness]

You miss the point and you dang well know it
Some back in the day fought tooth and nail to keep women in their dresses.
Practical has nothing whatsoever to do with it

Practicality is subjective and culturally determined.
And if people still wore gender specific clothing (however gender was currently being defined), this whole discussion could have been avoided. Which would would have collectively given us all back a big chunk of time for more productive and pleasant pursuits.

The good news is: we can still reclaim our future time if we chose to. I know I will.

 

[Her Dotness]

Hmmmmm. I think I'm getting the gist of this back and forth.

If someone is transgendered or gender-conflicted and gets misgendered, they're obligated to laugh it off because no harm was intended.

It seems it's too much of an effort, entirely too burdensome, to show consideration that not everyone's appearance necessarily matches their gender identity and that being misgendered can be upsetting.

It's on those being misgendered to "take it as well meant, laugh it off and get over it."

Because it's not as big a deal as some people want to make it.

Isn't that what several here are insisting?

 

[Mle8308]

I noticed "Friend/Friends" a lot more on our most recent trip a few weeks ago, and I admit, I found it a bit -- off. Not only was the word kind of new in an adult context, it was how much it was being used; it seemed like CMs were going out of their way to address people by a term, when on past visits they had not done so very frequently. (Clarification here; I'm speaking of up-close interactions, not the CMs working the mic in the ride pre-shows or as MC at shows; it sounds fine when they do it.)

What struck me most was that unlike in the past *every* CM interaction suddenly seemed to include being addressed directly as "Friend". I noticed it most with cashiers. In the past, most of them said "Hi! How can I help you?" but now it's "Hi, Friend! How can I help you?" Also sometimes the CM's at the end of the queue, who used to just politely ask "How many in your party?" but are now often saying, "Hi, Friends! How many in your party?" It's usually unnecessary in those situations, so in that context it sounds rehearsed and insincere.

Honestly, if they MUST throw in some kind of extra honorific, I'd prefer "folks" or even "y'all", because to me "Friend" as a mode of address in one-to-one interaction with a total stranger reminds me of either visiting a Quaker religious service, or someone trying to break up a bar fight.

PS: FTR, I never much was a fan of CM's out in the middle of the park addressing children as Princess/Prince; not because it was gender-specific, but because it kind of put kids on the spot in terms of interacting with an adult stranger when they might not want to. My DD absolutely hated being called Princess when she was little, and she never hesitated to let the CMs know it; she would grind out "DON'T call me Princess! and leave me alone!" every time it happened. In recent years I've sometimes noticed CMs calling costumed children "Your Highness!" which seems somehow to be a little less presumptuous, and also has the bonus of being gender-nonspecific. (Kids tend to love getting to feel like a grownup is showing them extra respect, and "Your Highness" ticks that box. It also seemed to go along well with the longstanding park CM schtick that the "Disney Royal Families" were supposedly their bosses.)

You said it better than me! Legit!

 

[Disneylover99]

You said it better than me! Legit!

Awesome post! She really nailed how I feel about the use of the word friend/friends.

 

[starlite_]

I would say it works both ways though - it shouldn't be a big deal at all to just ask and/or to laugh it off - for anybody. That's sorf of my point. As long as it is not done with malice then it shouldn't be a problem. One issue is though that we are becomming conditioned to see malice behind every little thing. That's kind of a different issue though. I don't much care what a CM calls me, but I also don't think it's necessary to require and prohibit certain words either. Can't we just all use a little reason and common sense? Oh, wait, we've been losing that too.

I don't much care what CMs call me either, I'm an adult I can in fact laugh it off if it happened. But a trans child for example? misgendering them can actually hurt them. It's a mistake without malice sure (hopefully) but it doesn't erase the hurt.

I love the idea that CMs can use Friend or Your Highness for anyone they might be unsure on how to refer to them. Princess/Prince is perfectly fine for a kid they are sure of. I heard Belle this weekend refer to a lil boy as Prince and it was cute and lovely, but I don't think it's too much to ask that CMs err on the side of caution for both kids and adults they might not be sure of just in case.

TLDR: A child being called Friend/Your Highness won't be hurt by not being called Prince/Princess, but a trans or non-binary kid being misgendered will. And having a lil consideration for those kids isn't "destroying the magic" or whatever.

 

[starlite_]

That's exactly what we did when my daughter was misgendered by cast members when she was growing back her hair after beating cancer at 6 years old. She was called a boy several times not only at Disney but in every day life. Even at 6 my daughter realized that "they just didn't know" and moved on. 4 years later we still talk about how great that trip was and until this comment I had forgotten all about that. Calling kids Prince and Princesses brings more joy than harm and honestly we all could use more joy.

Good for her, I'm really glad she recovered too, congrats <3. But your child does not represent all children and not all children can laugh it off.

I do wonder if it wouldn't have been better if she was called Your Highness instead of a boy? Either way, glad she is still with you.

 

[TraderStitch]

This is exactly like Cracker Barrel introducing a meat-less sausage and everyone losing their minds and refusing to go. LOL

It doesn't do anything to you, it is just more inclusive to others. Ya gotta stop being so fragile because others might feel more included.

 

[BrianL]

Hmmmmm. I think I'm getting the gist of this back and forth.

If someone is transgendered or gender-conflicted and gets misgendered, they're obligated to laugh it off because no harm was intended.

It seems it's too much of an effort, entirely too burdensome, to show consideration that not everyone's appearance necessarily matches their gender identity and that being misgendered can be upsetting.

It's on those being misgendered to "take it as well meant, laugh it off and get over it."

Because it's not as big a deal as some people want to make it.

Isn't that what several here are insisting?

Well, that isn't at all what I am "insisting" - in fact I am not insisting on anything, but as the originator of the "laugh it off" quote, I feel that it is being extremely reductively interpreted. I do understand that for some people it is very hurtful to be misgendered, but my question is why does it have to be? I posit that it is a far greater form of empowerment to refuse to yeild power to words - to not let everything be a slight, especially when it is not intended as such - and when it is to not care what the small-minded people think. I do also understand that this approach doesn't work for anyone, but I do think it's a perfectly valid tactic.

I don't much care what CMs call me either, I'm an adult I can in fact laugh it off if it happened. But a trans child for example? misgendering them can actually hurt them. It's a mistake without malice sure (hopefully) but it doesn't erase the hurt.

I love the idea that CMs can use Friend or Your Highness for anyone they might be unsure on how to refer to them. Princess/Prince is perfectly fine for a kid they are sure of. I heard Belle this weekend refer to a lil boy as Prince and it was cute and lovely, but I don't think it's too much to ask that CMs err on the side of caution for both kids and adults they might not be sure of just in case.

TLDR: A child being called Friend/Your Highness won't be hurt by not being called Prince/Princess, but a trans or non-binary kid being misgendered will. And having a lil consideration for those kids isn't "destroying the magic" or whatever.

And again, I do ask WHY does it hurt so much? I believe that the importance we place on such things and our reactions are learned. I am offering a different way to think about it. I also absolutely agree that being more inclusive and erring on the side of caution when unsure is great, but I also think that in most cases a reasonanble person can figure it out and we don't need across-the-board rules to govern interactions.

 

[dreamer17555]

Honestly if you want to be called a prince/princess dress accordingly. And to be fair how often did they call young boys Prince? Because this seems to be something that rarely if ever happened.

They did however misgender my autistic son and call him princess and he did not appreciate that last year. Some kids can shake things off better than others

 

[juxtapose]

My 10 year old daughter will be very happy with this. She was not impressed with our waiter on DCL as he kept calling her princess (she was in street clothes). This was just in May this year so not very long ago.

Also my son is 6 and gets asked all the time are you a boy or girl and it annoys him, he wears pink basically daily and that's where the question comes from but he doesn't get why people he doesn't know need to know or care.

 

[buzlite]

It's a difficult situation. Sounds like a lot of people want to be addressed in certain ways.

 

[MPD]

I know lots of little kids who don't necessarily present as their gender (assigned at birth or otherwise). And I think it's unreasonable to ask children to laugh it off (and rather mean to ask adults to do it as well). In an ideal world maybe it wouldn't matter or wouldn't hurt. But we don't live there. We live in a world where anti-trans legislation is increasingly common and suicide among trans kids (and adults) is horrifyingly high.

I wish everywhere was as thoughtful as Disney on this - using inclusive language doesn't hurt anyone. No child is damaged by being called "your highness" or "friend" instead of "prince" or "princess". The converse, however, is not at all true. This reminds me of the fuss over "dreamers of all ages". I will never understand why people are upset about a language change that includes more people. And, no, neither of those changes actually excludes anyone.

 

[BrianL]

It's a difficult situation. Sounds like a lot of people want to be addressed in certain ways.

Exactly, and everyone seems to only want it their own way, which is why a hard-and-fast rule isn't very productive. It's a conversation, and it doesn't have to be an adversarial one unless we make it such.

This reminds me of the fuss over "dreamers of all ages". I will never understand why people are upset about a language change that includes more people. And, no, neither of those changes actually excludes anyone.

I actually dislike, "dreamers of all ages" because it presumes that everyone present is a "dreamer." It's kind of trite. I don't really think of myself as such. I am all for a more inclusive greeting, but it could be worded better. They could just say "Good evening, everyone."

 

[Jmljasmine]

I don't know. It feels vaguely "Soviet" for strangers to call each other "friend." It is a term that implies both parties are equal, which was the point of folks addressing each other as "comrade."

while prince or princess elevates the recipient. Calling someone a guest also elevates them. Even "sir" or "madam" is an inherently respectful way to address someone.

Changing the words we are allowed to use is somewhat Orwelean. It's Newspeak. I hope we are not all too far gone to at least acknowledge that there are elements of 1984 in all of this. George Orwell intended it to be a cautionary tale, and here we are. Sorry, but I'm not going to pretend I cannot see the obvious.

Maybe that's why I also feel uncomfortable with a stranger calling me friend. I don't know. It's hard to put my finger on it. I know people here don't like how we feel about it but as others are allowed to share how they feel so others con be more aware, I don't see what's wrong for people who don't like the term friend by a stranger to also share. It feels very uncomfortable to me, kinda like if someone I barely knew tried to hug me. Now, I wouldn't complain to Disney if someone did it, I'd just smile awkwardly and move on but it is what it is.

 

[SteveH]

Just use terms like "Hey You" or if you want to really poke the bear, "Hey Ewe"

 

[reddog21]

This is exactly like Cracker Barrel introducing a meat-less sausage and everyone losing their minds and refusing to go. LOL

Hold on Cracker Barrel has a meat-less sausage????

 

[Her Dotness]

I posit that it is a far greater form of empowerment to refuse to yeild power to words - to not let everything be a slight, especially when it is not intended as such - and when it is to not care what the small-minded people think. I do also understand that this approach doesn't work for anyone, but I do think it's a perfectly valid tactic.

Your Freudian slip is showing. [bolding added]