• Controversial Topics
    Several months ago, I added a private sub-forum to allow members to discuss these topics without fear of infractions or banning. It's opt-in, opt-out. Corey Click Here

My poor little daughter!

Status
Not open for further replies.
I don't know much about autistic kids....but I am pretty sure he meant to hit her. Her head is little, she was sitting in the cart and he hit her square on the face. So I am pretty sure it was not an accident.

I'm sure he did mean to put the basket in that spot, but what he might not have processed was that there was a person in the spot who could be hurt. Some kids who are more severely affected by ASD have great trouble recognizing the "personhood" of other people, especially younger children who are not known to them. If so, AFA he was concerned, he might have just as well have been aiming the basket at a chair or a cabinet.

You should have called security to document the incident just in case a hidden injury had happened, for insurance purposes. I agree that going off on the Dad or the boy would not have been productive, however.

If I had to guess why the Dad didn't take steps to prevent such an incident, based on the OP's description of the incident, I'd guess non-custodial parent. Unfortunately, the presence of severe ASD or ODD has a tendency to destroy marriages, and non-custodial parents in those cases are sometimes not too great at being on top of every possibility that needs to be accounted for in advance; they just don't deal with it often enough to be good at anticipating.
 
Is it possible that this incident happened and the best resolution is to just move on? What exactly would the store manager do? It isn't like the police are going to do anything with it. This is an unfortunate act that your daughter experienced, things like this happen in schools, daycares, on playgrounds, etc., everyday. OP, I would suggest moving on.
 
I would not have called security or anything.

The dad apologized and tried to get his son to apologize and tried to correct him. What more could he do?

I wouldn't be pissed at the dad either. If it was obvious to you that the son had some kind of disability, I'm sure the man tries his best to be on the look out. Sometimes parents can't see everything going on 100% of the time and that goes for parents who don't have children with disabilities as well. I would cut the guy some slack.

Hope your daughter is okay!

Now if I had a pet lion and decided to go out for a walk would you be upset if the lion decided to eat your kid? What if I was disabled would that make it alright?

Sorry but if you have a kid that has "issues" and is a danger to himself or others because he doesn't act in a rational way... well sorry but the little monster needs to be kept at home where he isn't a danger to others.

This reminds me of a girl in my high school that was retarded to the point that she might have been the equivalent of a 8 year old. Her parents didn't want her to be any different from other kids, so when she turned 16 they got her a car... And when she tried to park it between two cars in the parking lot where any normal person would have known there wasn't enough space... she simply slammed her car in between as far as it would go scraping both cars in the process... realizing that she didn't get parked as far in as she wanted she backed up and tried again... doing more damage this continued for a total of 3 times before a teacher got her to stop...

This is like the boy with the cart... imagine he's driving and your kid gets in his way, he will just run over the kid and if he has to back up and drive over again until he gets past... and some people want everyone else to just let these people have a pass because they have problems. I say no way. The world would be a better place if we still had institutions for the severely mental and kept them there for their own safety and the safety of others.
 
I never said the dad was mortified. In fact, I was surprised that he was not more shocked by it. All he said was that he was really sorry and "did not know what brought that on". He was not mortified that I could tell. That is why I was so upset with him after the fact. He seemed almost not shocked that it happened. Just sorry.

The dad never even took the basket. The kid had a hold on the basket from the moment he swung it into my daughters face, from the time I walked away. He never let go of it. So I think if anything, the dad should have removed the bakset from the kids hand before he did it again.

Whether it has happened before or not, the fact is this attack was unprovoked, therefore, a responsible parent would NEVER allow this child to hold a basket or anything else that can be used as a weapon.
 


I'm sure he did mean to put the basket in that spot, but what he might not have processed was that there was a person in the spot who could be hurt. Some kids who are more severely affected by ASD have great trouble recognizing the "personhood" of other people, especially younger children who are not known to them. If so, AFA he was concerned, he might have just as well have been aiming the basket at a chair or a cabinet.

You should have called security to document the incident just in case a hidden injury had happened, for insurance purposes. I agree that going off on the Dad or the boy would not have been productive, however.

If I had to guess why the Dad didn't take steps to prevent such an incident, based on the OP's description of the incident, I'd guess non-custodial parent. Unfortunately, the presence of severe ASD or ODD has a tendency to destroy marriages, and non-custodial parents in those cases are sometimes not too great at being on top of every possibility that needs to be accounted for in advance; they just don't deal with it often enough to be good at anticipating.

Just curious, but why are you so sure this kid did not mean to do it? And why do you think that the dad was a non-custodial parent?
 
Now if I had a pet lion and decided to go out for a walk would you be upset if the lion decided to eat your kid? What if I was disabled would that make it alright?

Sorry but if you have a kid that has "issues" and is a danger to himself or others because he doesn't act in a rational way... well sorry but the little monster needs to be kept at home where he isn't a danger to others.

This reminds me of a girl in my high school that was retarded to the point that she might have been the equivalent of a 8 year old. Her parents didn't want her to be any different from other kids, so when she turned 16 they got her a car... And when she tried to park it between two cars in the parking lot where any normal person would have known there wasn't enough space... she simply slammed her car in between as far as it would go scraping both cars in the process... realizing that she didn't get parked as far in as she wanted she backed up and tried again... doing more damage this continued for a total of 3 times before a teacher got her to stop...

This is like the boy with the cart... imagine he's driving and your kid gets in his way, he will just run over the kid and if he has to back up and drive over again until he gets past... and some people want everyone else to just let these people have a pass because they have problems. I say no way. The world would be a better place if we still had institutions for the severely mental and kept them there for their own safety and the safety of others.

:scared1:.

:mad:
 
I am concerned for the safety of the service dog. If the child is this violent, he may be abusive to the dog. I hope the parents monitor his interaction with the dog closely. When I was working on a college campus next door to the disabilities office, I saw some service dogs treated horribly. :sad1:
 


Wow, I'm truly sorry this happend to your daughter!:hug: I'm so glad she is OK though. The boy obviously has something wrong w/ him, but that is NO excuse for his actions. I'm surprised the father didn't take the basket away after the incident or at least try to discipline him. You handled yourself very well; I would have been yelling at the boy.
 
Just curious, but why are you so sure this kid did not mean to do it? And why do you think that the dad was a non-custodial parent?

I didn't say that he didn't mean to do it at all; it is VERY possible, if not probable, that his action was deliberate. He might just be a brat, after all, and most ASD kids are as capable of being bratty as any other kid.

What I said was that it was also possible that *if* he is on the spectrum, that he did not understand that the little girl was a person who could be hurt. This particular concept is very hard for a lot of people to understand, but for kids on the spectrum who lack "theory of mind" it is a fairly common problem. They just don't see other people as people unless they know them very well; they perceive them rather the way that you might a doll: as a "thing" rather than a living being who has feelings. Which isn't to say that he did not deliberately hit her, or that he did not deserve to get consequences for doing so, but most parents would impose a different level of punishment for hitting a doll, as opposed to hitting a person. If the child doesn't know the difference, how do you handle such an incident in a public place?

The suspicion that the father might be a non-custodial parent comes from my experience with non-custodial parents of Autistic kids who are verbal. Sometimes they are in denial of what their kids' limitations are, and sometimes they will go off on the kids as if they should know better when the kid doesn't have a clue why he should be sorry about what he did. More commonly, however, IME they tend to be placators in public, which would explain not taking away the basket -- I'd be willing to bet that if the kid is on the spectrum, taking that basket away would have resulted in a knock-down drag-out physical tantrum. IME, non-custodial parents tend to be less likely to wade into those on purpose if they don't want to sour the time that they have with the kid by deliberately provoking a meltdown, even if they know that they probably should.

So yeah, it is entirely possible that the kid is a brat who wanted to act out a scene from TS3, and the Dad is a full-time parent who just blew it, but if there was a disability present, as the OP seemed to think that there was, what I suggested is also a plausible possibility for what happened.

FWIW, as the parent of a child on the spectrum, I would have handed it this way, while keeping a firm grip on my kid's arm: "Ma'am, I am so very sorry; is your little girl OK? Do you want me to go and get a manager to call paramedics and have her checked out?" [Assuming that victim's parent is not raising a stink at this point, I'd turn to my own child ...] "Son, you hit a little girl with that basket, do you realize that? Yes, you did. You hurt a person who is younger and smaller than you are. You need to tell the little girl and her mother that you are are sorry, and we will need to leave the store without buying anything, because you failed to follow the rule about keeping your hands to yourself." [At this point I'd expect a plaintive argument about how he didn't touch her with his hands.] "It doesn't matter, you still hit a little girl even if your hands did not touch her, because your hands are holding the basket that hit her. No, you need to say that you are sorry right now, and don't tell me, tell the girl and her mom. We are not moving until you say you are sorry." (Please note the lack of pronouns when referring to the strangers; that is important for DS, as when he is under stress he cannot keep actors straight if you use pronouns to refer to them.)

Luckily, my son has never been violent, but to this day I try to avoid taking him into hardware stores because he simply cannot resist playing with long objects like pieces of wood, pipe, or curtain rods. He twirls them, and invariably knocks over displays and even inadvertantly hits people -- most often me. He also is a foot taller than I am; I cannot manhandle him out of the store. Our rule for hardware stores (when they are unavoidable) is that his hands must go into his pockets before we enter the store and must stay there until we have left it.
 
I didn't say that he didn't mean to do it at all; it is VERY possible, if not probable, that his action was deliberate. He might just be a brat, after all, and most ASD kids are as capable of being bratty as any other kid.

What I said was that it was also possible that *if* he is on the spectrum, that he did not understand that the little girl was a person who could be hurt. This particular concept is very hard for a lot of people to understand, but for kids on the spectrum who lack "theory of mind" it is a fairly common problem. They just don't see other people as people unless they know them very well; they perceive them rather the way that you might a doll: as a "thing" rather than a living being who has feelings. Which isn't to say that he did not deliberately hit her, or that he did not deserve to get consequences for doing so, but most parents would impose a different level of punishment for hitting a doll, as opposed to hitting a person. If the child doesn't know the difference, how do you handle such an incident in a public place?

The suspicion that the father might be a non-custodial parent comes from my experience with non-custodial parents of Autistic kids who are verbal. Sometimes they are in denial of what their kids' limitations are, and sometimes they will go off on the kids as if they should know better when the kid doesn't have a clue why he should be sorry about what he did. More commonly, however, IME they tend to be placators in public, which would explain not taking away the basket -- I'd be willing to bet that if the kid is on the spectrum, taking that basket away would have resulted in a knock-down drag-out physical tantrum. IME, non-custodial parents tend to be less likely to wade into those on purpose if they don't want to sour the time that they have with the kid by deliberately provoking a meltdown, even if they know that they probably should.

So yeah, it is entirely possible that the kid is a brat who wanted to act out a scene from TS3, and the Dad is a full-time parent who just blew it, but if there was a disability present, as the OP seemed to think that there was, what I suggested is also a plausible possibility for what happened.

FWIW, as the parent of a child on the spectrum, I would have handed it this way, while keeping a firm grip on my kid's arm: "Ma'am, I am so very sorry; is your little girl OK? Do you want me to go and get a manager to call paramedics and have her checked out?" [Assuming that victim's parent is not raising a stink at this point, I'd turn to my own child ...] "Son, you hit a little girl with that basket, do you realize that? Yes, you did. You hurt a person who is younger and smaller than you are. You need to tell the little girl and her mother that you are are sorry, and we will need to leave the store without buying anything, because you failed to follow the rule about keeping your hands to yourself." [At this point I'd expect a plaintive argument about how he didn't touch her with his hands.] "It doesn't matter, you still hit a little girl even if your hands did not touch her, because your hands are holding the basket that hit her. No, you need to say that you are sorry right now, and don't tell me, tell the girl and her mom. We are not moving until you say you are sorry." (Please note the lack of pronouns when referring to the strangers; that is important for DS, as when he is under stress he cannot keep actors straight if you use pronouns to refer to them.)

Luckily, my son has never been violent, but to this day I try to avoid taking him into hardware stores because he simply cannot resist playing with long objects like pieces of wood, pipe, or curtain rods. He twirls them, and invariably knocks over displays and even inadvertantly hits people -- most often me. He also is a foot taller than I am; I cannot manhandle him out of the store. Our rule for hardware stores (when they are unavoidable) is that his hands must go into his pockets before we enter the store and must stay there until we have left it.

I do have one question... What do you think will happen when your son is 18 and can do as he pleases?

That is a question I've always wondered about... some parents can and do control their troubled kids when they are young enough that they can legally do so... but what will happen when he is old enough to simply ignore his parents?
 
I do have one question... What do you think will happen when your son is 18 and can do as he pleases?

That is a question I've always wondered about... some parents can and do control their troubled kids when they are young enough that they can legally do so... but what will happen when he is old enough to simply ignore his parents?

Many Intellectually disabled children don't MAGICALLY gain the insight and knowledge at 18 that "I'm an adult and can do what I please!". At 18, they cannot do as they please. The continue to function at the same level they were in years past for the most part. They continue to live with their parents (or in some cases move to a group home). For those with mild disability, they learn to function in the real world. They go to college, get married, have kids of their own.

Your lack of understanding of how life works when there is an intellectually disabled person involved is STAGGERING. And there is a massive difference between "troubled" and "disabled".
 
I didn't say that he didn't mean to do it at all; it is VERY possible, if not probable, that his action was deliberate. He might just be a brat, after all, and most ASD kids are as capable of being bratty as any other kid.

What I said was that it was also possible that *if* he is on the spectrum, that he did not understand that the little girl was a person who could be hurt. This particular concept is very hard for a lot of people to understand, but for kids on the spectrum who lack "theory of mind" it is a fairly common problem. They just don't see other people as people unless they know them very well; they perceive them rather the way that you might a doll: as a "thing" rather than a living being who has feelings. Which isn't to say that he did not deliberately hit her, or that he did not deserve to get consequences for doing so, but most parents would impose a different level of punishment for hitting a doll, as opposed to hitting a person. If the child doesn't know the difference, how do you handle such an incident in a public place?

The suspicion that the father might be a non-custodial parent comes from my experience with non-custodial parents of Autistic kids who are verbal. Sometimes they are in denial of what their kids' limitations are, and sometimes they will go off on the kids as if they should know better when the kid doesn't have a clue why he should be sorry about what he did. More commonly, however, IME they tend to be placators in public, which would explain not taking away the basket -- I'd be willing to bet that if the kid is on the spectrum, taking that basket away would have resulted in a knock-down drag-out physical tantrum. IME, non-custodial parents tend to be less likely to wade into those on purpose if they don't want to sour the time that they have with the kid by deliberately provoking a meltdown, even if they know that they probably should.

So yeah, it is entirely possible that the kid is a brat who wanted to act out a scene from TS3, and the Dad is a full-time parent who just blew it, but if there was a disability present, as the OP seemed to think that there was, what I suggested is also a plausible possibility for what happened.

FWIW, as the parent of a child on the spectrum, I would have handed it this way, while keeping a firm grip on my kid's arm: "Ma'am, I am so very sorry; is your little girl OK? Do you want me to go and get a manager to call paramedics and have her checked out?" [Assuming that victim's parent is not raising a stink at this point, I'd turn to my own child ...] "Son, you hit a little girl with that basket, do you realize that? Yes, you did. You hurt a person who is younger and smaller than you are. You need to tell the little girl and her mother that you are are sorry, and we will need to leave the store without buying anything, because you failed to follow the rule about keeping your hands to yourself." [At this point I'd expect a plaintive argument about how he didn't touch her with his hands.] "It doesn't matter, you still hit a little girl even if your hands did not touch her, because your hands are holding the basket that hit her. No, you need to say that you are sorry right now, and don't tell me, tell the girl and her mom. We are not moving until you say you are sorry." (Please note the lack of pronouns when referring to the strangers; that is important for DS, as when he is under stress he cannot keep actors straight if you use pronouns to refer to them.)

Luckily, my son has never been violent, but to this day I try to avoid taking him into hardware stores because he simply cannot resist playing with long objects like pieces of wood, pipe, or curtain rods. He twirls them, and invariably knocks over displays and even inadvertantly hits people -- most often me. He also is a foot taller than I am; I cannot manhandle him out of the store. Our rule for hardware stores (when they are unavoidable) is that his hands must go into his pockets before we enter the store and must stay there until we have left it.

I am the OP (and the one that asked about him not doing it on purpose) and I would have greatly appreciated your response. This guy never asked of he could get someone to help her or anything like that. He just said he was sorry and asked if she was OK. Thank god she was OK and she never even shed one tear. But what if she HAD been hurt, or been crying hysterically? What would he have done? I am actually so surprised that I managed to remain calm. I think I was so shocked that it happened and then just really wanted to get her out of there because the kid still had the basket.

Like someone else said, I need to move on. And believe me, I have. It is just one of those things that when you think about it, you cannot believe that it even happend in the first place!
 
Unless I misread, the son told his dad "you need to apologize", so yes the child could "utter" one. He may not mean it, may not understand but he could say it. I am feeling a little for the OP, but if I thought my kid would do something like that, I wouldn't have him out where other kids are. Sorry, but that is the way I feel. You can't control him and he has outbursts, then don't put other small kids in danger.

My DD 12 was recently hit in the head, in a sporting event. She wasn't knocked out, didn't have a lump or anything else. Well turned out she did have a concussion. I am in the minority here, but I don't think I would have been as nice. The girl was 2, he was 12. He could have done some serious damage. I am not feeling the love that most here are.

Actually no..if he is indeed autistic and has expressive or receptive language delays he possibly isn't able to utter an apology and/or is not able to understand entirely what is going on or how to respond.

Children with autism (and we are all assuming here but service dog and the echolalia (parroting back what Dad said) point to autism) don't understand sometimes the consequences of their actions or how it impacts others. Children with autism are sometimes in a world of their own and aren't entirely aware of what is going on around them or how to react to it..stores can be a big sensory overload for some autistic children and they act out as a result of it.

His age doesn't negate his disability or any language (be them expressive or receptive) he might have. Asking his son to apologize doesn't mean he is entirely able to do so but Dad could be working with him and prompting him to understand how to react. Kids with autism vary greatly in regards to how it impacts them and their interactions with others. I have one friend with an autistic son who struggles with impulsivity issues and has been known to act out for what seems to be unknown reasons to others.

You don't have to feel any love but you do need to understand that not everyone is the same with the same abilities and understanding of the situation especially when dealing with a disability. It's unfortunate it happened without a doubt and it's possible the father could have reacted differently but he could have been upset, shocked and embarrassed and not responding to the best of his abilities either.
 
I do have one question... What do you think will happen when your son is 18 and can do as he pleases?

That is a question I've always wondered about... some parents can and do control their troubled kids when they are young enough that they can legally do so... but what will happen when he is old enough to simply ignore his parents?

Well, essentially he will have to take his lumps if he does something foolish and thoughtless in public. If he gets arrested then he learns a lesson. DS has thankfully never been violent, nor is he meltdown-prone, and in fact cannot deal with those on the spectrum who are; it upsets him to see grown men acting like thwarted toddlers. However, he isn't very severely affected in general, and his impulse control is improving greatly as he gets older; there is a huge difference in his public behavior now than there was 5 years ago. These days he can pass for neurotypical 90% of the time.

I'm not really sure what I would do if he was so severely affected that he could not be trusted not to strike people out of the blue, as I've never had to really deal with that, though as I recounted it above, I'm well-versed in the recommended way to handle such incidents when they happen by accident. With families who are in this predicament with adult kids, IME the answer is that they simply never let the autistic person go out alone without someone to help them; which often means hiring an aide or having them live in a group home for disabled adults. Unfortunately they also sometimes have to medicate folks who have these kinds of impulse problems. I have a good friend who manages a sheltered workshop for the disabled, and he has several autistic adults there who are prone to lashing out; they have to have an aide at all times, someone who is big enough to restrain them if necessary.
 
But what if she HAD been hurt, or been crying hysterically? What would he have done? I am actually so surprised that I managed to remain calm. I think I was so shocked that it happened and then just really wanted to get her out of there because the kid still had the basket.

At that point, I know that you would have informed the store and had her medically checked and he would have had to deal with any and all of the consequences.

He really should have taken the basket away. Maybe it was the first time he swung it at someone, maybe it wasn't. When the dad saw what happened, it should have been taken away immediately for the safety of himself, other shoppers, his dad, the service dog, even store products - regardless of whether or not it would have disolved into a public temper tantrum. If it happened once it could happen again.

Good for you to remain calm. :thumbsup2
 
I do have one question... What do you think will happen when your son is 18 and can do as he pleases?

That is a question I've always wondered about... some parents can and do control their troubled kids when they are young enough that they can legally do so... but what will happen when he is old enough to simply ignore his parents?

This is a huge question. Personally, I pray dh and I outlive our younger dd. Judging from other parents of children with autism, this is a common concern. For society at large, the good news is, law enforcement and public safety officers have received increased training on approaching individuals with autism, and interacting with them. Our dd is very passive and far more likely to be a victim than the person wielding a weapon. Still, her social skills, and ability to read people or situations are weak. She might react very inappropriately when commanded to "stop and put up your hands" for instance.
 
Any chance dad took the basket away AFTER you left OP? He may not have wanted to dole out any correction in front of strangers, whether it was a stern "don't you EVER do that again" or a swat on the butt or taking the kid out of the store.

ETA, his "lack" of a stronger reaction also may have been because the 2 year old didn't freak out and seemed, for the most part, okay. If OP's DD had been hit my guess is he probably would've been more concerned or acted differently.
 
Any chance dad took the basket away AFTER you left OP? He may not have wanted to dole out any correction in front of strangers, whether it was a stern "don't you EVER do that again" or a swat on the butt or taking the kid out of the store.

Absolutely. I can certainly see that happening. Perhaps the dad wanted to remove the child from the flurry of the situation first then deal with the consequences in private.
 
Absolutely. I can certainly see that happening. Perhaps the dad wanted to remove the child from the flurry of the situation first then deal with the consequences in private.

I agree..entirely possible (and while he didn't take the basic immediately he was "on alert" while standing there regarding what happened/could happen) and if the child struggles with sensory issues as some autistic children do it might be necessary for him to deal with it outside of actual situation as the child might be unable to process at that point what is being said or what happened. It's different for each child and even parents with autistic children can't say how this parent should have handled this child as it is not their child and what needs to be done, the issues that child struggles with..etc are entirely unknown and what works for your kid isn't necessarily the right approach for this one..3 friends with 3 autistic children and all of them are different in regards to their needs and their struggles and how the parent needs to react to them...one has big struggles with expressive/receptive language, one has impulsivity issues (will run, lashes out and hits when overloaded..etc and the other has a seizure disorder as well as autism)..they are all around the 5-7ish age range
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

GET A DISNEY VACATION QUOTE

Dreams Unlimited Travel is committed to providing you with the very best vacation planning experience possible. Our Vacation Planners are experts and will share their honest advice to help you have a magical vacation.

Let us help you with your next Disney Vacation!











facebook twitter
Top