My argument against DVC

[YourEveryDayAdam]

Has anyone brought up the fact that you really should make the comparison to rental rates?

If the rental pp is $11 and the MF's are $5

You save $6pp per year

If you $96pp then your breakeven is 16 years

Finance the full amount and your breakeven doubles to 32years....

This calculation isn't good as you are assuming that rental rates wouldn't increase over time. It used to be that points would rent for $10 per point. Before they rented for less than that.

Over time, as Disney raises the prices on their resorts, people will be willing to pay more money for renting DVC. I even covered this scenario in my thread that I linked to. Right now, points are renting for about 60% of what their like-valued room would cost. For example, if you used a room to book a 2 bedroom MK view, then a person renting points would pay about 60% of the rack rate on that room in renting those points.

This is pretty much the same as the "40% off" coupons that can be found for bounce-back offers. This makes the break-even point about 10 years for buying out right and about 17 years if you finance.

Over the 50 year life of the contract, the person who rents will pay about 2 and 1/2 times as much as the person who bought DVC. In my MK view studio example, that equals $210,706. And at the last year of the contract, when i've paid my last years dues of $7,300... i'll be sipping my $50 pool-side adult beverage while the guy next to me can't believe he just spent $32,000 for the same room for the same week.

Remember: DVC isn't about saving money now. It's an investment in your vacationing future. You prepay for your vacations now, and sure, it is expensive. But the REAL value of DVC will come after the first 10-20 years of the vacations when you've broken even with the cash guest and now you've got 30 more years of vacations AND an asset to show for it, while the cash guest has nothing but worry about how they are going to pay for Disney next year.

 

[tjkraz]

But this much IS clear: If you want to stay on site. DVC WILL save you money.

It probably depends on how one interprets that statement.

If you buy into DVC to duplicate your current pattern of trips (same resort, room size and frequency) as when paying cash, yes you will end up with more money in your pocket at the end of the day. Or at least the end of 50 years.

But more often what happens is people buy into DVC and end up giving The Mouse more of their hard-earned money than ever before. Larger rooms...more expensive resorts...more vacation days per year. While you may have more to show for it, Disney almost certainly gets a bigger chunk of the paycheck for years and years to come. Should any of us really be calling that "saving"???

It might be more appropriate to say that DVC allows owners to take more frequent trips or enjoy more luxurious accommodations while remaining within their budget. The number of members who are "saving" (spending less on their vacations for equal quality and quantity) is probably quite small. Instead most of us are getting more bang for our buck while using Rack Rates & other calculations to convince ourselves that buying more and more points is the wise thing to do.

 

[Modeltrf]

That's easy. Are my memories of Disney worth any more to me than baking brownies with two chocolate smeared toddlers? My son winning his baseball tournament last year? Dropping my daughter off at camp and watching her excitement as she spends her first week without Mom and Dad? Fishing with the grandparents off the dock? Snuggling with my husband on the couch in front of a movie?

I ENJOY my Disney trips, but I - myself - do not place more value on those memories than hundreds of other less expensive to produce memories......so to me, those memories are a wash.

Unlike the Visa commericial, while I find my memories priceless, I don't find that memories of Disney are more or less priceless than some of the others I treasure.

For some it may be an either/ or. For some it is not a matter of either/ or it is a matter of quality. I have enjoyed my Disney experience but I enjoy it more with DVC. And I still enjoy the less expensive things just as much.

I completely agree with you that Disney doesn't own the market on memories. But they do own the market on Disney memories. For me, the accommodations of DVC make those Disney memories better. I have good ones without DVC. It is easier/ better with DVC. IMHO DVC is good for my family.

 

[Modeltrf]

Larger rooms...more expensive resorts...more vacation days per year.


It might be more appropriate to say that DVC allows owners to take more frequent trips or enjoy more luxurious accommodations while remaining within their budget...

..Instead most of us are getting more bang for our buck ...

I agree wholeheartedly with the above.

So you are saying I get a BMW at Buick prices? Sold!

IMHO that is the value of DVC.

 

[YourEveryDayAdam]

It probably depends on how one interprets that statement.

If you buy into DVC to duplicate your current pattern of trips (same resort, room size and frequency) as when paying cash, yes you will end up with more money in your pocket at the end of the day. Or at least the end of 50 years.

But more often what happens is people buy into DVC and end up giving The Mouse more of their hard-earned money than ever before. Larger rooms...more expensive resorts...more vacation days per year. While you may have more to show for it, Disney almost certainly gets a bigger chunk of the paycheck for years and years to come. Should any of us really be calling that "saving"???

It might be more appropriate to say that DVC allows owners to take more frequent trips or enjoy more luxurious accommodations while remaining within their budget. The number of members who are "saving" (spending less on their vacations for equal quality and quantity) is probably quite small. Instead most of us are getting more bang for our buck while using Rack Rates & other calculations to convince ourselves that buying more and more points is the wise thing to do.

I will agree that this is what DVC tends to do. Disney, after all, wouldn't sell DVC if it didn't make them more money.

However, for the disciplined Disney vacationer, my statement still holds true

 

[aharbin88]

Congrats! Where did you buy?

We bought at SSR. We are also interested in AKV, but I don't know enough yet to decide which is better: to buy two separate home resorts, or try to get enough points at your home resort, and pray for a open ressie at the 7 month mark. I think I'll leave that discussion for another thread, though.

 

[Tiger926]

I think you're assuming you're going to stay at DVC no matter what and that there are no discounts. Rack rate at DVC is only a valid comparison if you would have paid that otherwise. It's must like comparing MSRP on a car. Or buying something off TV late at night and actually believing the value they quote. For many, they would NOT be paying that rate otherwise. In my discussions I'm more talking $$$ when talking cost, IMO, value is a totally different discussion that includes $$$ but is not limited to it. If you want to assume no discounts you can use the rack rate at other options, that is valid IF that's where you'd say otherwise. One might chose to compare to an off property timeshare that is equally as nice as DVC.

There is still a substantial weekend differential, it's true the calculations have changed but they could change the other way in a few years as well.

Of my timeshare stays in Orlando (for myself and several of my staff) since last Oct and coming up, they were the following.

• Hilton 2 BR about $300 for a week.
• Grande Vista 3 BR about $350 for a week.
• Two different Marriott Harbour Lake 2 BR about $150 each for a week.
• two AKV 1 BR about $300 each for a week.
• OKW 1 BR about $300 for a week (T'giving).

All were exchanges, all took into account aquision costs, exchange costs, guest certificates where applicable and underlying maint fees.

If you can get financing at 1-2% without commiting your home and have the money to pay it if something happens, then I'd agree. However, even if it's free and you put your house at risk, that's not reasonable. And DVC is over 10%.

Everyone's situation is different and they should look at the factors that apply to them. Just don't fool yourself with using DVC rack rates and think you're saving money when you almost certainly are not.

I really value your opinions and knowledge, as I know you know your timeshare stuff, so I want to ask about your above mentioned numbers. I am assuming you get those rates as you own at these timeshares, correct? So, are those numbers what the week cost you with your buy-in, plus the weekly rate? I ask because last time we stayed at Hilton Grand Vacation Club on I-Drive (beautiful resort!), we got a 1bed suite, kitchen/dining/living area combined, 2 baths and balcony for 2 nights for $109.00/night. I got it as I was checking my Hilton points one day - I didn't have to take a timeshare tour either. So, if you compare this price to Disney prices, then that is good as compared to DVC rates, but I still can't imagine how you got a whole week for $300.00. Wow! That's a good rate.

In this case, if these rates are always available to you, then yes, DVC would cost more, but if not, then again, I don't think it's fair to use these rates as comparison. For me, I couldn't use these rates as comparison, as I am not eligitble for these rates.

Interesting discussion - so many different variables to the equation of DVC value!

Tiger

 

[jodifla]

That's easy. Are my memories of Disney worth any more to me than baking brownies with two chocolate smeared toddlers? My son winning his baseball tournament last year? Dropping my daughter off at camp and watching her excitement as she spends her first week without Mom and Dad? Fishing with the grandparents off the dock? Snuggling with my husband on the couch in front of a movie?

I ENJOY my Disney trips, but I - myself - do not place more value on those memories than hundreds of other less expensive to produce memories......so to me, those memories are a wash.

Unlike the Visa commericial, while I find my memories priceless, I don't find that memories of Disney are more or less priceless than some of the others I treasure.

DVC, though, allows some memories that are so special and not likely often repeated, unlike day to day life.

We frequently travel with friends and family -- it's one of the main reasons we bought DVC -- and the ability to spend that kind of time together, sitting out on the balcony with drinks long into the night while the kids play, and get reacquainted after years -- is very unique and treasured.

 

[Dean]

Actually,

If you read the full thread, I did cover almost all of those scenarios. Including investing the money you would have spent on DVC and investing it.

Later on towards the end, I did a comparison with a 2 bedroom vs. cash vs. value resorts. Doing that comparison skewed the numbers far more in favor of DVC than my studio calculation did.

Dues, by law, can't go up by more than what Disney expects it to cost to run the resort. Disney, by law, is not allowed to make a profit on the dues. If they have a surplus in one year, they have to discount the dues next year to compensate. In the past they have, historically, gone up at the price of inflation. There is no reason to believe they would go up any faster.

And you are right. There are options for time share that are MUCH cheaper than buying DVC. You could stay at an off site time share for a whole lot less than DVC. You could probably even stay at an off site hotel, over the 50 year life of the contract, for about the same cost as DVC without the commitment of a time share purchase. I agree that DVC is not for everyone.

You even mention that you can trade in to Disney. However, this is not guaranteed, and I would suspect that availability isn't as good for people trading other time shares in to DVC. DVC could at any time end their relationship with RCI just as they did with Interval. If you bought another time share with the intention of trading in to DVC every year, then I don't expect you would be happy with the results. The only way to guarantee Disney stays is to buy DVC.

But this much IS clear: If you want to stay on site. DVC WILL save you money.

I'm on vacation now at HH so don't have enough time and few enough distractions to go through the entire thread. I think we are pretty close in that if you use DVC correctly, it will at least be a good value. One of my main points was that DVC will not save money in many situations. It will not save money if you look at long weekends or cash type exchange options. It will be a good value if you do S-F and fair if you do a full week and compare 1 room to a studio or 2 to a 2 BR. Even buying DVC doesn't guarantee a specific reservation but does improve your chances in some situations. I would argue that it can be almost as easy to get certain reservations by exchange as it would be for the 7 month window if one is looking at a full week. The dues are limited to 15% increase per year but even that doesn't include taxes, if they go up that much even 1 year, all your calculations go out the window.

 

[Dean]

I really value your opinions and knowledge, as I know you know your timeshare stuff, so I want to ask about your above mentioned numbers. I am assuming you get those rates as you own at these timeshares, correct? So, are those numbers what the week cost you with your buy-in, plus the weekly rate? I ask because last time we stayed at Hilton Grand Vacation Club on I-Drive (beautiful resort!), we got a 1bed suite, kitchen/dining/living area combined, 2 baths and balcony for 2 nights for $109.00/night. I got it as I was checking my Hilton points one day - I didn't have to take a timeshare tour either. So, if you compare this price to Disney prices, then that is good as compared to DVC rates, but I still can't imagine how you got a whole week for $300.00. Wow! That's a good rate.

In this case, if these rates are always available to you, then yes, DVC would cost more, but if not, then again, I don't think it's fair to use these rates as comparison. For me, I couldn't use these rates as comparison, as I am not eligitble for these rates.

Interesting discussion - so many different variables to the equation of DVC value!

Tiger

The info I posted is my real costs but it is because of the situation I have put myself in. Most are trading bluegreen time or my RCI points but also include trading Marriott studios through II for up trades and bonus weeks. For example, I am currently sitting in a 2 BR unit at Marriott's Grande Ocean unit I got on exchange. Total cost about $350 for a unit that legitimately rents for over $4000 plus 12% tax. To position yourself as I have requires quite an investment of time and money. However, now is a GREAT time to do it if one is so inclined. One could get in my basic position related to the above for about $20-25K and yearly fees around $3000 a year. That give you a great Marriott to trade as a lockoff that will likely get you a bonus week, 60K bluegreen points that'll give you free cancellations, 3 free weeks to deposit yearly (including to get more RCI points) and a reasonable RCI points contract. Of course there are many variations on this theme including many other timeshare systems to consider. This would give you as many as 30 weeks a year but more realistically about 17-20. Not for everyone of course but the principles are solid.

 

[Disney Legend]

The info I posted is my real costs but it is because of the situation I have put myself in. Most are trading bluegreen time or my RCI points but also include trading Marriott studios through II for up trades and bonus weeks. For example, I am currently sitting in a 2 BR unit at Marriott's Grande Ocean unit I got on exchange. Total cost about $350 for a unit that legitimately rents for over $4000 plus 12% tax. To position yourself as I have requires quite an investment of time and money. However, now is a GREAT time to do it if one is so inclined. One could get in my basic position related to the above for about $20-25K and yearly fees around $3000 a year. That give you a great Marriott to trade as a lockoff that will likely get you a bonus week, 60K bluegreen points that'll give you free cancellations, 3 free weeks to deposit yearly (including to get more RCI points) and a reasonable RCI points contract. Of course there are many variations on this theme including many other timeshare systems to consider. This would give you as many as 30 weeks a year but more realistically about 17-20. Not for everyone of course but the principles are solid.

Any time I see a post by Dean, I make sure I read it. Dean, you should get a web site so we can learn about your knowledge. Or, let us know another way.

 

[Dean]

Any time I see a post by Dean, I make sure I read it. Dean, you should get a web site so we can learn about your knowledge. Or, let us know another way.

That is such a kind complement. I try to share what I know when I can and give people info and make every attempt to just share the info without telling people what they should do.

 

[nwhitehead1214]

That's easy. Are my memories of Disney worth any more to me than baking brownies with two chocolate smeared toddlers? My son winning his baseball tournament last year? Dropping my daughter off at camp and watching her excitement as she spends her first week without Mom and Dad? Fishing with the grandparents off the dock? Snuggling with my husband on the couch in front of a movie?

I ENJOY my Disney trips, but I - myself - do not place more value on those memories than hundreds of other less expensive to produce memories......so to me, those memories are a wash.

Unlike the Visa commericial, while I find my memories priceless, I don't find that memories of Disney are more or less priceless than some of the others I treasure.

Just on a side note, we stay at the Poly every year for one week and the memories are just as fantastic. You can have those memories at DW whether you are DVC or not. Its a nice argument but it does make me chuckle as if the Poly memories (which are fantastic) are not as good.

Again, it is what a previous poster said the X factor. When you are comparing a studio to a hotel room that is disingenious because the studios have pull out beds, no housekeeping etc. You need to see what is important to your family.

We go to Disney every year and I have flirted with DVC every year. In the end we have paid about 4000 a year but that always includes everything I need for a great vacation. The monorail, the water parade, the luau, the food, everything. However, we are a family of four. I think if you had a bigger family the DVC would make lots of sense.

If they ever have a Poly DVC-- watch out I am definately in regardless of the price!

 

[wishicouldgomoreofte]

But do include the DVC purchase costs and don't just look at maint fees. So you're not really staying 2.5 to 4 times as long for the same expense. Add interest charges if the purchase is financed.

Cash stays are the most flexible of all, not a timeshare, which requires more advance planning and is subject to availability limitations more so than cash stays. If you want to enjoy a 1BR (more space, privacy and a kitchen but no daily housekeeping) for approx. the cost of a moderate hotel room and you don't mind the ongoing commitment, DVC may be for you. It's a substantial enough luxury purchase that if you must finance or if you are unsure, it's probably best to hold off, IMO. HTH.

I agree. You do have to include purchase price, and interest lost on that money in the equation, as well as memeber fees, which DO go up, and must be paid. Cash stays are the most flexible, and deals and discounts are frequent. DVC is really just another whole ball of wax.

 

[MiaSRN62]

nwwhitehead : Just on a side note, we stay at the Poly every year for one week and the memories are just as fantastic. You can have those memories at DW whether you are DVC or not. Its a nice argument but it does make me chuckle as if the Poly memories (which are fantastic) are not as good.

Absolutely you don't have to be DVC to have these memories. But for us---I feel much more compelled and motivated to plan when I know I have those points sitting there that are already paid for. With cash ressies, I sort of look at if from the perspective : well do I really want to put out hundreds/thousands of dollars in the next few months ? Having two kids in college I would probably shy away from that. But that's just me.

Crisi : Are my memories of Disney worth any more to me than baking brownies with two chocolate smeared toddlers? My son winning his baseball tournament last year? Dropping my daughter off at camp and watching her excitement as she spends her first week without Mom and Dad? Fishing with the grandparents off the dock? Snuggling with my husband on the couch in front of a movie?


I ENJOY my Disney trips, but I - myself - do not place more value on those memories than hundreds of other less expensive to produce memories......so to me, those memories are a wash.

Unlike the Visa commericial, while I find my memories priceless, I don't find that memories of Disney are more or less priceless than some of the others I treasure.

I understand what you're saying Crisi. I probably felt a little like this when my kids were little. But now that I have high school and college aged children---the things you mentioned above in your post are a rare thing for our family.

Our WDW/DVC stays are one of the few things that get us all together. It's so difficult now with kids older : part time jobs, off to college, off with friends..........it's a rare rare sighting to see all five of us together. I usually run and grab the camera to capture the moment when all three of my kids are in the same 1 mile radius ! But our WDW trips are what bring us together and I do treasure those times. Days of football, baseball, soccer are all but gone or dwindling for us. My youngest is 16. Just trying to get all five of us together for a dinner out is a major feat. My kids go off to college and I don't see them for months at a time.

So DVC is a way for me to plan a year out and know we'll all be able to spend quality time together. So I just suppose it's where one is in their life as to how important DVC can be.


Maria

 

[nwhitehead1214]

.

 

[nwhitehead1214]

: well do I really want to put out hundreds/thousands of dollars in the next few months ?

Whoa! I hope you don't think I am paying that much yearly. We average out about 4,000 with dinner and tixs. But I have priced out (tell the cows come home) the amount of point I would need to take a comparable vacation and my yearly mf's alone were 2K. Then (because I hate housekeeping that fee), park food (I hate cooking). That doesn't include my buy in price and the park hoppers, food etc. 4K includes everything (the food and tixs). The numbers just didn't add up for me. But that is great though. It works for your family. I'll just tell my kids they are going to Disney until they are out out the house I was simply just getting a chuckle about the "memories" argument in favor of purchasing. We have a blast each year and get pampered to boot! I think DW provides amazing memories for everyone was my point.

 

[arthur06]

For us it makes sense. At least now it does...I can't speak for 5,10,20 years down the road! We have been to Disney 2 times in 17 months and going again in Oct.

On our last trip we toyed with buying and didn't. We found a great deal on Airfare and Hotel. ($335 for the two of us...5 nights off property). The hotel SUCKED! Mildew on the shower curtain, drippy faucet..etc...

We just decided that we were not going to be budget travelers anymore. DW and I both have good jobs and make good money. We have 3 boys and are NOT traveling with them in those accommodations and in a regular hotel room.

The world needs all kinds! Some will love DVC others will not! Because I don't flip burgers for a living doesn't mean that I don't appreciate those who do! To each there own!

 

[crisi]

Absolutely you don't have to be DVC to have these memories. But for us---I feel much more compelled and motivated to plan when I know I have those points sitting there that are already paid for. With cash ressies, I sort of look at if from the perspective : well do I really want to put out hundreds/thousands of dollars in the next few months ? Having two kids in college I would probably shy away from that. But that's just me.






I understand what you're saying Crisi. I probably felt a little like this when my kids were little. But now that I have high school and college aged children---the things you mentioned above in your post are a rare thing for our family.

Our WDW/DVC stays are one of the few things that get us all together. It's so difficult now with kids older : part time jobs, off to college, off with friends..........it's a rare rare sighting to see all five of us together. I usually run and grab the camera to capture the moment when all three of my kids are in the same 1 mile radius ! But our WDW trips are what bring us together and I do treasure those times. Days of football, baseball, soccer are all but gone or dwindling for us. My youngest is 16. Just trying to get all five of us together for a dinner out is a major feat. My kids go off to college and I don't see them for months at a time.

So DVC is a way for me to plan a year out and know we'll all be able to spend quality time together. So I just suppose it's where one is in their life as to how important DVC can be.


Maria

Sure, but even then, it wouldn't HAVE to be WDW. My family memories with my parents and sisters since we've gone to college have more to do with getting together at Christmas, gathering at my parents house during the summer than they do with vacations.

I love my Disney vacations - and for some families it probably is a lot easier to get the family together with the inducement of Disney - but those memories aren't WORTH more to me. And in the case of my family - my sister won't join us at Disney. So its right out as a destination to get the family together at. Similar issues with my husband's family where they just can't afford to travel (and I can't afford to treat that often). If we are going to create family memories with adult children - we'd better have other tools in our toolkit than DVC.

 

[MiaSRN62]

Sorry if anyone got me wrong. DVC is just ONE of the avenues that helps bring us together. So yes Crisi, we do have other "tools" in the "toolkit" as you put it. Just that DVC is one of the bigger ones for us. Everyone knows what is right for THEIR own family. Getting us all together in one room for any length of time is a big effort on my part---can't even tell you. Everyone has different lives (work, school, friends). Wasn't like this when the kids were little....but things sure do escalate to a new level when college enters the picture. And my one daughter goes to school in FL (1,000 miles away). Things just aren't as easy anymore.

Respect everyone and the different ways they share quality time as a family. For my family, the older the kids are getting and the more active they are becoming in their own lives (making their way and all), WDW is just a really nice hub for us. FL also works because we have lots of family members who live down there and my one dd goes to college in FL. So for US, it works.

And nwwhitehead....don't want to debate or anything with you. I'm not trying to guess or assume anything about your wdw trips---honestly. Just know what it is for me. Not sure if you got what I was saying.
Just for me, doing to WDW using our DVC Membership is alot more convenient. It's more like a prepaid vacation. We would need 2 rooms at a regular disney resort so a week would easily mean hundreds/thousands out-of-pocket for us. Have no idea what your budget is but I'm sure the way you vacation works very well for you. I was just providing my reasons for preferring DVC. Sorry for any confusion.

Crisi :My family memories with my parents and sisters since we've gone to college have more to do with getting together at Christmas, gathering at my parents house during the summer than they do with vacations

Again Crisi....that's great for you---honestly. Wish we had this. I am glad this all works well for you. For us...not so much. We barely have any family left here. All relatives in FL. And my college age kids have actually spent Christmas with gf/bf and friends family. One year ds didn't even come home for Christmas----went with a group of friends to one of their hometowns. Don't have living parents on either my side or dh's.......kids have no grandparents. My dh has one brother we visit during holidays here locally (PA). I have cousins/aunts and uncles in FL. So again, it all depends on where each individual person is in THEIR life. So what works for you would never work for us. Not trying to say anyone is right or wrong....just different things work for different people.

Peace


Maria