My argument against DVC

DVC may or may not save money. It depends on how you compare, how you use it and what you would pay for otherwise. For S-F stays, it will be as cheap or cheaper than a moderate. For weekends only, you'll likely be losing money each and every trip forever. Comparing to a value, the numbers are not as favorable as for a moderate but may be somwhat close depending on choices. If you'd stay off property, you could get a 2 BR at a resort as nice or nicer than the DVC resorts for about the same or less than a value. Financing has a major impact on the $$$ value as well. Using consistently for cash type exchange options (DCL, DC, CC) will always make DVC cost more than not owning would have and paying OOP.

Comparing to DVC rack rates is a fools comparison in all situations except where you'd pay that price if you didn't own or if you'd stay in suites at Disney resorts consistently. One of the major mistakes many makes many make is simply assuming it will save them money.

I disagree with some of your logic, and here is why.

Rack Rate - You have to use rack rates, as that is all we have to compare to, at this time. You can only not use rack rates if you are eligible for a discounted or promo room. If you can't go during promo periods, then no discount for you. If you don't have CAA/AAA, then no discount for you, not military, etc. Sure, Disney has been releasing many promos and discounts over the past few years, but just like many on here remind new DVC purchases to not count on any DVC perks or discounts, I don't think you can count on Disney discounts/promos either. If you shouldn't use DVC perks or discounts into your reasoning to purchase DVC, then you can't use it as a determining factor not to purchase either. I've called to ask MS about DVC cash rooms, and you even have to qualify for those - they've told me that when I've called, there wasn't a cash price available (not sure if this is right?). Some years, Disney discounts are few and far between, yet many of us have gone to Disney anyway, even at full price. I've already mentioned on several posts over the past few weeks, that I compared the summer discount room only rate for July (when we always go) for a moderate, to our DVC vacation, and our DVC vacation wins out - that is for 3 more nights in a 1 bed, and not a moderate room, with better ticket options (I only calculated a base ticket, but we always get APs and so our DVC discount is great, plus, we use for 2 trips). So, even with a promo, our DVC vacation this year is cheaper!

DVC weeknights vs weekdays - I totally see your point about weekend stays, but over time, this would be balance out, when the weekday stays are added, right? Also, next year that is a moot point, as the weekend stays have been lowered - have you worked those figures yet? Do you still think that weekends will cost more over cash prices?

Other options - I totally agree about other off site options, but again, many of them are drastically reduced timeshares used as marketing purposes (Hilton and Marriott) to get you to buy, so they may not be available. I have never rented a private home, but I do know from seeing posts on here, that this is a very feasible option for many too - cheaper than staying on-site, but for us, that doesn't make sense as we want to be right at the action, especially with small kids. We also would never compare to Value resorts, as we don't care for them, plus this isn't an apples to apples comparison - if people normally stay Value, then it will be pretty hard to compare that to DVC, as they are two entirely different things.

Financing - This may add to the cost of DVC, but it may not. My hubby's a banker, so we got a ridiculously low staff interest rate of like 1-2%. This gave us time to get the money together (we didn't have the large sum to pay out right away, plus CDN exchange had to be factored in), and even with some interest added on and our CDN exchange rates, we are still going to save money with our DVC over paying cash for Disney rooms.

The bottom line for us, is that we used realistic figures for moderate resorts as that is what we were used to staying in, and would be staying in for future stays, (used rack rates, and then hubby factored in some kind of formula for promos/discounts, but again, these aren't guaranteed), and we are pretty confident, depending upon maintenance fees of course, that we are going to come out ahead of staying at moderate resorts, and this is for mostly 1 beds, with some studios thrown in, but possible larger rooms as time goes on. When we factor in Deluxes/DVC Villas, which we never could have afforded anyway, we will come out even more ahead. We would never compare to Value resorts, or, to off-site, as we don't care for either of these two options, so sure there are cheaper options available to us, but since we won't partake of them, they weren't counted into our initial research. I think this is important - people should only use figures for off-site or value, if that is what they were doing before, or, would do in the future. This is the only way to get a true comparison, and if those figures are less, and the person is comfortable with that way of vacationing and it fits their family's needs, then perhaps DVC might not be that great of a purchase for them, as it will cost them more money then they had ever planned on spending, KWIM?

It's a very interesting and informative discussion, that's for sure! Tiger
 
What resort studio has two beds (ie one that is not a sofa as a bed in disguise)? I thought most had a bed and a pull out sofa bed? I know only OKW has two. Which ones have you stayed at that had two beds this for future stays?

My point. And I think you also really made it. Is to determine what is right for you. I guess right back at you are you spending so much time in your room that you are cooking and needing a kitchenette because all the previous posts tell her how wonderful it is to have a full kitchen? Do you like your room cleaned? Do you like pull out sofa beds? Do you use a kitchenette? Those are the real factors in her decision whether or not to buy. You cannot compare apples to apples because there is no equivalent.

And further now your simply making the room is a room is a room argument and that really doesn't support why someone would want DVC. DVC is all about the rooms. If your just looking for a comfy bed they have those at the All Stars for much cheaper.

I am just answering the question.
 
Well if your spending more than eight hours in you room don't you want it cleaned?

Anyhow, my point to the question as she asked is you cannot automatically assume that the moderates and the studios are apples to apples. Moderates have daily housekeeping and two beds (not a pull out sofa) with no extra fee. The studios have a kitchenette. However the mods now offer a fridge and you can request microwaves. What is important to you? Most DVC's like the one bedroom.

What's important.
 
nwhitehead1214 :Well if your spending more than eight hours in you room don't you want it cleaned?
The studios have a kitchenette. However the mods now offer a fridge and you can request microwaves. What is important to you?

Personally, we view our DVC as a "vacation home". We prefer to not have housekeeping. We often leave the "Do Not Disturb" sign on the door even when we stay in non-dvc. Not a big deal for us to tidy up.

and one thing, at least for us that is very important, is the DVC studio has a BALCONY over a moderate. BIG deal for us as we love sitting out there and relaxing/reading a book/people watching/having a cocktail etc. And with the kitchenette over a mod with a frig and rented microwave, we get plates/glasses/utensils/a kitchen sink. If we need two beds, we can book OKW---there is usually always availability. But if dh and I are traveling alone (or dd and I), we prefer the one bed and the couch. Gives us alot of extra space in the room. So it's just a preference.


Maria
 


Well. That's kindda my point. I think that the poster needs to not look at square footage, space and kitchens. But look to what's important to her. I have flirted with DVC so many times but in the end I opt for my week at the Poly. I hate to cook (so its unlikely I am ever going to use my kitchen). Sleep sofa aggravate me (I never find them comfortable). I have little ones who will mess up a room in one second flat (so I love to leave messy and come back clean). And the hotel room have two beds. It just works better for my family's vacation style That's what she need to be assessing. Like a previous poster said, really DVC if your looking for big savings perhaps it not the right purchase for you. As there are incidentals (tixs, food, etc), maintenance fees and so on
 
Also, don't forget that in the moderates, you get 2 adults and 2 children included in the price. Any additional adults are extra. With DVC, there is no extra charge for four adults in the room. That can add up to a nice amount over the course of a vacation.
 
....
and one thing, at least for us that is very important, is the DVC studio has a BALCONY over a moderate. BIG deal for us as we love sitting out there and relaxing/reading a book/people watching/having a cocktail etc. And with the kitchenette over a mod with a frig and rented microwave, we get plates/glasses/utensils/a kitchen sink. If we need two beds, we can book OKW---there is usually always availability. But if dh and I are traveling alone (or dd and I), we prefer the one bed and the couch. Gives us alot of extra space in the room. So it's just a preference.


Maria

For us also, it's the balcony that makes a studio much more than just a room.
I do think that the little kitchenette area, with it's own sink is much nicer than just adding a microwave, coffee pot and refrigerator to a room. We have cabinets to put groceries in, it's a neat little area not shared with the bathroom sink. You can clean the glasses and have them drying on the counter top, not in the bathroom sink area.

Even if I'm eating breakfast inside and not on the balcony, I like the table next to the large sliding glass doors and privacy. I wouldn't be eating at Pop next to the window with the drapes opened. I would feel too much on display there.

Bobbi:goodvibes
 


With a DVC studio, you will get a queen size bed with a double sleeper sofa. Or at OKW, two queen beds. Plus, you get a balcony or patio.

I don't like staying in a moderate regular room because you only get two double beds.
 
Thank y'all for the info! This thread has done a whole lot for me in terms of giving a ton of different ways to look at buying DVC. I'm not sure if that was for better or for worse, but it did help us make a decision: we bought in. :banana:We got a heck of a finance rate (0.99%), and a heck of a per point rate ($67.50/point), so we felt like this was a sign for us to bite the bullet. We took so many poster's advice, though, and only bought 200 points. We are hoping to bank, borrow, beg and steal to get my family and my DH's family into a Grand Villa next year, and then be happy with our 200 points for a while after that. If, after experiencing the DVC ownership lifestyle for awhile, we see that 200 points is too little, we'll add on. Like a pp said, there's a strong chance that the price per point will be lower 5 years from now than it is at this time, so we feel comfortable adding on as needed, rather than buying it all up front. I waiver between anxiety and excitement about the purchase, but I'm sure that once I make that first DVC reservation and step foot on WDW property, all those anxieties will vanish, and I'll be sucked in to the magic of Disney. :wizard:

I am sure that I will still have TONS of questions about DVC protocol as the months pass, so I will be poking my head out of TRs to hopefully become a regular poster on the DVC threads. The DIS is so full of helpful advice, and this DVC thread has proven that for me. I really appreciate the time everyone took to respond. :worship:

Here's to 44 more years of Disney vacations! :thumbsup2
:)
There.. there it is from the emotional DVC purchaser who wishes every DVCer and DISser "happy trips" always. Sorry just thought this thread need a little joy factor.

Thank you. I agree, this thread needed a little sunshine. :cutie:

My grandmother said it best...."They don't put pockets in shrouds".

Where's the tag fairy when you need her?
 
Congratulations! I was just about to ask where did you buy as well, but crisi beat me to it!

Welcome Home! Tiger :)
 
I disagree with some of your logic, and here is why.

Rack Rate - You have to use rack rates, as that is all we have to compare to, at this time. You can only not use rack rates if you are eligible for a discounted or promo room. If you can't go during promo periods, then no discount for you. If you don't have CAA/AAA, then no discount for you, not military, etc. Sure, Disney has been releasing many promos and discounts over the past few years, but just like many on here remind new DVC purchases to not count on any DVC perks or discounts, I don't think you can count on Disney discounts/promos either. If you shouldn't use DVC perks or discounts into your reasoning to purchase DVC, then you can't use it as a determining factor not to purchase either. I've called to ask MS about DVC cash rooms, and you even have to qualify for those - they've told me that when I've called, there wasn't a cash price available (not sure if this is right?). Some years, Disney discounts are few and far between, yet many of us have gone to Disney anyway, even at full price. I've already mentioned on several posts over the past few weeks, that I compared the summer discount room only rate for July (when we always go) for a moderate, to our DVC vacation, and our DVC vacation wins out - that is for 3 more nights in a 1 bed, and not a moderate room, with better ticket options (I only calculated a base ticket, but we always get APs and so our DVC discount is great, plus, we use for 2 trips). So, even with a promo, our DVC vacation this year is cheaper!

DVC weeknights vs weekdays - I totally see your point about weekend stays, but over time, this would be balance out, when the weekday stays are added, right? Also, next year that is a moot point, as the weekend stays have been lowered - have you worked those figures yet? Do you still think that weekends will cost more over cash prices?

Other options - I totally agree about other off site options, but again, many of them are drastically reduced timeshares used as marketing purposes (Hilton and Marriott) to get you to buy, so they may not be available. I have never rented a private home, but I do know from seeing posts on here, that this is a very feasible option for many too - cheaper than staying on-site, but for us, that doesn't make sense as we want to be right at the action, especially with small kids. We also would never compare to Value resorts, as we don't care for them, plus this isn't an apples to apples comparison - if people normally stay Value, then it will be pretty hard to compare that to DVC, as they are two entirely different things.

Financing - This may add to the cost of DVC, but it may not. My hubby's a banker, so we got a ridiculously low staff interest rate of like 1-2%. This gave us time to get the money together (we didn't have the large sum to pay out right away, plus CDN exchange had to be factored in), and even with some interest added on and our CDN exchange rates, we are still going to save money with our DVC over paying cash for Disney rooms.

The bottom line for us, is that we used realistic figures for moderate resorts as that is what we were used to staying in, and would be staying in for future stays, (used rack rates, and then hubby factored in some kind of formula for promos/discounts, but again, these aren't guaranteed), and we are pretty confident, depending upon maintenance fees of course, that we are going to come out ahead of staying at moderate resorts, and this is for mostly 1 beds, with some studios thrown in, but possible larger rooms as time goes on. When we factor in Deluxes/DVC Villas, which we never could have afforded anyway, we will come out even more ahead. We would never compare to Value resorts, or, to off-site, as we don't care for either of these two options, so sure there are cheaper options available to us, but since we won't partake of them, they weren't counted into our initial research. I think this is important - people should only use figures for off-site or value, if that is what they were doing before, or, would do in the future. This is the only way to get a true comparison, and if those figures are less, and the person is comfortable with that way of vacationing and it fits their family's needs, then perhaps DVC might not be that great of a purchase for them, as it will cost them more money then they had ever planned on spending, KWIM?

It's a very interesting and informative discussion, that's for sure! Tiger
I think you're assuming you're going to stay at DVC no matter what and that there are no discounts. Rack rate at DVC is only a valid comparison if you would have paid that otherwise. It's must like comparing MSRP on a car. Or buying something off TV late at night and actually believing the value they quote. For many, they would NOT be paying that rate otherwise. In my discussions I'm more talking $$$ when talking cost, IMO, value is a totally different discussion that includes $$$ but is not limited to it. If you want to assume no discounts you can use the rack rate at other options, that is valid IF that's where you'd say otherwise. One might chose to compare to an off property timeshare that is equally as nice as DVC.

There is still a substantial weekend differential, it's true the calculations have changed but they could change the other way in a few years as well.

Of my timeshare stays in Orlando (for myself and several of my staff) since last Oct and coming up, they were the following.

  • Hilton 2 BR about $300 for a week.
  • Grande Vista 3 BR about $350 for a week.
  • Two different Marriott Harbour Lake 2 BR about $150 each for a week.
  • two AKV 1 BR about $300 each for a week.
  • OKW 1 BR about $300 for a week (T'giving).
All were exchanges, all took into account aquision costs, exchange costs, guest certificates where applicable and underlying maint fees.

If you can get financing at 1-2% without commiting your home and have the money to pay it if something happens, then I'd agree. However, even if it's free and you put your house at risk, that's not reasonable. And DVC is over 10%.

Everyone's situation is different and they should look at the factors that apply to them. Just don't fool yourself with using DVC rack rates and think you're saving money when you almost certainly are not.
 
I think you're assuming you're going to stay at DVC no matter what and that there are no discounts. Rack rate at DVC is only a valid comparison if you would have paid that otherwise. It's must like comparing MSRP on a car. Or buying something off TV late at night and actually believing the value they quote. For many, they would NOT be paying that rate otherwise. In my discussions I'm more talking $$$ when talking cost, IMO, value is a totally different discussion that includes $$$ but is not limited to it. If you want to assume no discounts you can use the rack rate at other options, that is valid IF that's where you'd say otherwise. One might chose to compare to an off property timeshare that is equally as nice as DVC.

There is still a substantial weekend differential, it's true the calculations have changed but they could change the other way in a few years as well.

Of my timeshare stays in Orlando (for myself and several of my staff) since last Oct and coming up, they were the following.

  • Hilton 2 BR about $300 for a week.
  • Grande Vista 3 BR about $350 for a week.
  • Two different Marriott Harbour Lake 2 BR about $150 each for a week.
  • two AKV 1 BR about $300 each for a week.
  • OKW 1 BR about $300 for a week (T'giving).
All were exchanges, all took into account aquision costs, exchange costs, guest certificates where applicable and underlying maint fees.

If you can get financing at 1-2% without commiting your home and have the money to pay it if something happens, then I'd agree. However, even if it's free and you put your house at risk, that's not reasonable. And DVC is over 10%.

Everyone's situation is different and they should look at the factors that apply to them. Just don't fool yourself with using DVC rack rates and think you're saving money when you almost certainly are not.

Dean,

Please read http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2137102For many math comparisons of DVC. I compare a week at BLT MK view (the most expensive DVC "view") to both it's rack-rate, it's "40% off rate" (which covers pretty much all of the best Disney deals including "buy 4 get 3" and free dining), renting the points flat out, and even comparing the costs of financing to it. I also compare the costs to the Moderates and the Values.

In the initial example, family of 4 staying in a studio each week, saves them about $400,000 over the 50 year life of the contract vs. rack rates. Saves them about $200,000 in the worst case when you consider coupons and financing. It saves them about $125,000 when you compare it to the moderates. Finally, it almost Breaks even (within $200) with the values.

I even compare this to "saving" the money instead and investing it at a very generous 10% interest rate.

In my most recent example, I compared the numbers for a family of 6 and the savings were even more dramatic and absolutely clear (i.e. hundreds of thousands of dollars) every way you compared it... coupons, moderates, values, etc.

There is no doubt: DVC WILL save you money.
 
Dean,

Please read http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2137102For many math comparisons of DVC. I compare a week at BLT MK view (the most expensive DVC "view") to both it's rack-rate, it's "40% off rate" (which covers pretty much all of the best Disney deals including "buy 4 get 3" and free dining), renting the points flat out, and even comparing the costs of financing to it. I also compare the costs to the Moderates and the Values.

In the initial example, family of 4 staying in a studio each week, saves them about $400,000 over the 50 year life of the contract vs. rack rates. Saves them about $200,000 in the worst case when you consider coupons and financing. It saves them about $125,000 when you compare it to the moderates. Finally, it almost Breaks even (within $200) with the values.

I even compare this to "saving" the money instead and investing it at a very generous 10% interest rate.

In my most recent example, I compared the numbers for a family of 6 and the savings were even more dramatic and absolutely clear (i.e. hundreds of thousands of dollars) every way you compared it... coupons, moderates, values, etc.

There is no doubt: DVC WILL save you money.
First, you're assuming a studio, likely the best comparison but still a major assumption and one that most people won't stick to. Second, if you invested the dollars up front and didn't use them at all, you'd have over a million dollars in 40 years. It's certainly reasonable to consider the dollars you'd spend minus the dues and then earnings on the difference. Very few people save money on DVC when they figure how they actually use it but many get more for a comparable amount. IMO, dues are likely to go up more than rooms over time as well. No doubt DVC can be a good choice for many but people need to look at what they would spend and how they would use it,always my main point in these type of discussions. Given my stays I outlined above, how would I ever save money on DVC? Remember there are other ways to get in to DVC besides owning including exchanging in and renting from a DVC member. Did you only buy 182 points? Do you plan to only stay in a studio?
 
Thank y'all for the info! This thread has done a whole lot for me in terms of giving a ton of different ways to look at buying DVC. I'm not sure if that was for better or for worse, but it did help us make a decision: we bought in. :banana:

CONGRATULATIONS :cool1: I hope it's everything you want it to be! I also had anxiety and excitement when we bought in, but I wouldn't trade my DVC membership for anything!
 
Has anyone brought up the fact that you really should make the comparison to rental rates?

If the rental pp is $11 and the MF's are $5

You save $6pp per year

If you $96pp then your breakeven is 16 years

Finance the full amount and your breakeven doubles to 32years....
 
Has anyone brought up the fact that you really should make the comparison to rental rates?

If the rental pp is $11 and the MF's are $5

You save $6pp per year

If you $96pp then your breakeven is 16 years

Finance the full amount and your breakeven doubles to 32years....

You are ignoring the TMV calculation.....

A LOT of this sort of exercise hinges on what rate you use for (or if you choose to ignore) TVM. And that is an assumption of the highest order that accountants can spend hours discussing.

......


The other variable is "how much is X worth to YOU" - for me, the uncertainty and risk of not renting points is worth a few hundred dollars a year to own (or to use CRO). Having the kids sleep in another room is worth at least a few hundred dollars over the course of the vacation. The washer is worth something, as is the ability to have a decent breakfast in the room with a kitchen. "Enforced" vacations adds value to DVC.

Housekeeping is something I miss, but don't value enough to pay the DVC per day rates, so its value to me is something less than the per day rates. But its a negative. Same with the fact that the kids end up on a hideabed - that's a wash - I'd rather have two beds, but wouldn't pay extra for one for the kids. Not having a lot of short notice availability is a negative, not a strong one. But DVCs cancellation policies take significant value away for me. The fact that I'm "cornered" into Disney if I want value is a big negative (and the reason we are unlikely to be long term DVCers). And while I like my home resort, the hassle of switching at seven months (we tend to travel in heavy DVC usage periods) is a minor negative.

I don't care about Disney promotions (like Free Dining) which are almost never in effect when we travel.

Each person is going to weigh these variables - and more - differently to determine whether DVC is a value to them. MOST people on the DIS DVC board have been able to answer than DVC provides value to them - a few have been disappointed by changes, a few others have seen their situations change to make DVC less attractive, and a very few have been disappointed overall - but they are the exceptions. Ask this over on the resorts board - where you have a lot of people who have Disney habits and have determined DVC doesn't fit them - and their answers are different. And honestly, usually for valid reasons. Just because someone makes a different decision than you do doesn't mean they are wrong - or that they are accusing you of being wrong.
 
There is fine logic on display both for and against DVC.

Whether I lose a little money or gain a little money by being a DVC member it doesn't matter. I didn't buy it for the money. I bought it so I could spend more quality time with my children on Disney property. This is true while they are children and when they are adults. I look forward to hosting my extended family at Disney in the distant future. Watching the grandchildren's faces light up when they see the 'world' for the first time. Spending quiet time with just my wife in the interim. I bought DVC for the vacation not for the cost saving/ expense.

IMHO I believe we can at least agree it is not a bad way to spend your vacation money. I love to go to Florida when it is cold here in the Northeast. I love Florida in late March/ early April when I can't wait for spring. This is how I choose to spend my vacation money.

As most of us will not put a price tag on our memories how can you figure that into the arguement for or against DVC?
 
First, you're assuming a studio, likely the best comparison but still a major assumption and one that most people won't stick to. Second, if you invested the dollars up front and didn't use them at all, you'd have over a million dollars in 40 years. It's certainly reasonable to consider the dollars you'd spend minus the dues and then earnings on the difference. Very few people save money on DVC when they figure how they actually use it but many get more for a comparable amount. IMO, dues are likely to go up more than rooms over time as well. No doubt DVC can be a good choice for many but people need to look at what they would spend and how they would use it,always my main point in these type of discussions. Given my stays I outlined above, how would I ever save money on DVC? Remember there are other ways to get in to DVC besides owning including exchanging in and renting from a DVC member. Did you only buy 182 points? Do you plan to only stay in a studio?

Actually,

If you read the full thread, I did cover almost all of those scenarios. Including investing the money you would have spent on DVC and investing it.

Later on towards the end, I did a comparison with a 2 bedroom vs. cash vs. value resorts. Doing that comparison skewed the numbers far more in favor of DVC than my studio calculation did.

Dues, by law, can't go up by more than what Disney expects it to cost to run the resort. Disney, by law, is not allowed to make a profit on the dues. If they have a surplus in one year, they have to discount the dues next year to compensate. In the past they have, historically, gone up at the price of inflation. There is no reason to believe they would go up any faster.

And you are right. There are options for time share that are MUCH cheaper than buying DVC. You could stay at an off site time share for a whole lot less than DVC. You could probably even stay at an off site hotel, over the 50 year life of the contract, for about the same cost as DVC without the commitment of a time share purchase. I agree that DVC is not for everyone.

You even mention that you can trade in to Disney. However, this is not guaranteed, and I would suspect that availability isn't as good for people trading other time shares in to DVC. DVC could at any time end their relationship with RCI just as they did with Interval. If you bought another time share with the intention of trading in to DVC every year, then I don't expect you would be happy with the results. The only way to guarantee Disney stays is to buy DVC.

But this much IS clear: If you want to stay on site. DVC WILL save you money.
 
As most of us will not put a price tag on our memories how can you figure that into the arguement for or against DVC?

That's easy. Are my memories of Disney worth any more to me than baking brownies with two chocolate smeared toddlers? My son winning his baseball tournament last year? Dropping my daughter off at camp and watching her excitement as she spends her first week without Mom and Dad? Fishing with the grandparents off the dock? Snuggling with my husband on the couch in front of a movie?

I ENJOY my Disney trips, but I - myself - do not place more value on those memories than hundreds of other less expensive to produce memories......so to me, those memories are a wash.

Unlike the Visa commericial, while I find my memories priceless, I don't find that memories of Disney are more or less priceless than some of the others I treasure.
 

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