"Mothers don't stop Getting angry with stupid bigots who (mess) with their children!"

[Planogirl]

Some here can complain all they want to about sex change operations but you know what? They'll still happen. You can either accept the people that go through those or you can complain. It changes nothing.

Now, where is my rainbow sherbert colada? (Tell me that that doesn't sound good. )

 

[bumbershoot]

I love the name Chaz.

Chastity was just a few months older than me. I remember watching the show and being SO jealous that she was on it and I wasn't.

And it's amazing that, while most people lose the features they had as children, Chastity as a grownup and Chaz even through his manly face, still has that incredibly little-but-big smile he had even when bitty.


I think that there are some people whose brains forget things like the media hope...out of sight out of mind. Some of them seem to be here in the thread. I'm different; those evenings watching that show are like yesterday...I remember people from the past and present, and if I was once interested in them, I probably still am. So Chastity on the show would have been every bit as interesting to me (though I must be honest here..I'm not generally a watcher of the show, though my hard-working, serious-lawyer sister in law is, and hubby would like to watch it, too!) as Chaz on the show, and I bet that Chastity would have had just as much of a chance, simply as a child of celebrities, even as a child who warmed our hearts AS a child, and also as an adult gay child of celebrities...as Chaz-as-he-is had.

Sonny and Cher have been gone for ages...

To you, maybe. For others...perhaps a bit longer-lasting in the memory.

Isn't the ability to protest what we don't like/want the foundation of our country??

Now I would have sworn that it was the protestation of things, that we did not want, being done TO us. Not just things we have to see, not just things that are going on around us, but...things that are being done TO us.

But what do I know? My various families that I came from were just immigrants from, mainly, Ireland, so maybe I missed something in History class.

And if we become what we watch, then

I'm going to become a Hoarder, then. Aw man...

I question the sanity of just about anyone who isn't at least a little offended by Nancy Grace.

...so far down each other's throats you could swear they were going to get acid burns from their partner's stomach?
...

Augh...image BURNED into my brain, will never be able to kiss again.




The person that interests me, in the Chaz situation, is his girlfriend. Because she started the relationship with a woman. Talk about truly loving the *person*, not just the body the person is in! If DH wanted a sex change, I'm not sure I could still be around. (though he does have a prolactinoma, which is a pituitary tumor that creates prolactin, a hormone men DO NOT have, and the changes in him while that tumor percolated away unbeknownst to people b/c no one would check his hormones despite him ASKING MDs and NDs to check them, were pretty big. in a way, in several ways, he was sort of becoming female (and b/c humans are animals too, my behaviour became interestingly more male, more aggressive, less nurturing), and the fact that the prolactin was absolutely destroying his testosterone production made it even worse...so, in a way, I've almost been through that)

But my point is...I'd love to hear more about her, as well.

 

[bumbershoot]

Something else I was thinking, while reading the thread from the beginning, then from the end....was that even though I don't totally know what it's like to feel like I'm in the wrong body (though there were about 2 years there that I really really REALLY wanted to be a boy and hated that I was a girl, even though at the same time it was boys I wanted to smooch), that doesn't mean I can't imagine what it must be like for those that DO feel like that.

Imagine...you go to sleep as you are. You wake up...in a different body. With parts you didn't have, with a different voice, with a different body/face hair pattern. What on earth is THAT down there? It's all different, it's all just WRONG. I'm a woman, I am supposed to bear children, why am I a man? I'm a man, I don't have to wear a bra, why am I a woman?

Would we, waking up this way, be graceful, just go "oh gosh, how odd, well, I must be moving along, because to do otherwise would mean I'm mentally ill, tra la la!"? I highly doubt it. We'd rage and rant and try everything to ge back to the way we were, the way we thought we were, the way it feels right for us to be.

And that's just one MORNING.

I imagine it's a whole lot harder when you realize these things about yourself early on (I, for one, was madly in love with a boy from 2nd grade on...I read that Carson Pressly knew he was gay from about the same age...my brother in law knew he liked boys way more than girls, though he gave girls a good solid try, from about 9 years old, etc etc *my point is that many people know "what" they are and who they will love at a very young age*), and you're in this just flat out WRONG body for years, decades, maybe your whole life.

So you've woken up in this WRONG body, and you never get a chance to change it...you die in this wrong body...never having felt it was right.


Maybe that way of feeling empathy won't help anyone else, maybe people will want to poke holes in it, who knows? Maybe it'll help out.

 

[tlbwriter]

Folks, one of the major arguments against gays, marriage 'n kids is a biological one rather than religious. I guess those folks never heard of invitro or adoption.

Oh, that's one of my favorites.

Why can't same sex couples get married?

Well, it's unnatural. After all, one of the main purposes of marriage is to produce and raise children, right? According to certain people.

So a marriage is invalid without children? And it's the government's responsibility to make sure all marriages are capable of producing children?

Well, putting aside how completely intrusive that argument is (especially since it tends to come from people who claim they want "less government"), if this is the case, then why doesn't the government mandate insurance coverage for infertility treatment? Why doesn't the government fund adoptions at 100%? If the government insists that a marriage MUST include children, why doesn't that apply to ALL marriages?

 

[Nancyg56]

Oh, that's one of my favorites.

Why can't same sex couples get married?

Well, it's unnatural. After all, one of the main purposes of marriage is to produce and raise children, right? According to certain people.

So a marriage is invalid without children? And it's the government's responsibility to make sure all marriages are capable of producing children?

Well, putting aside how completely intrusive that argument is (especially since it tends to come from people who claim they want "less government"), if this is the case, then why doesn't the government mandate insurance coverage for infertility treatment? Why doesn't the government fund adoptions at 100%? If the government insists that a marriage MUST include children, why doesn't that apply to ALL marriages?

Now you are just making my head hurt! If I start questioning all of this more than I already do I will never get anything done

 

[PeterPan09]

Oh, that's one of my favorites.

Why can't same sex couples get married?

Well, it's unnatural. After all, one of the main purposes of marriage is to produce and raise children, right? According to certain people.

So a marriage is invalid without children? And it's the government's responsibility to make sure all marriages are capable of producing children?

Well, putting aside how completely intrusive that argument is (especially since it tends to come from people who claim they want "less government"), if this is the case, then why doesn't the government mandate insurance coverage for infertility treatment? Why doesn't the government fund adoptions at 100%? If the government insists that a marriage MUST include children, why doesn't that apply to ALL marriages?

What about straight people who don't want kids? Should they not be allowed to get married? Or will the government force those straight couples to get married and have kids? You think public education costs are high now? Wait til all those mandatory kids show up!

Bottom line, there really is no valid argument that does not link to personal religious beliefs or the slippery slope of government intrusion we've played with here.

 

[Topper]

I completely understand where golfgirl is coming from. What worries me more is that int his small population so many attack her fro saying she is opposed to it. Hey golfgirl you are no alone, but you won't find many people post here because they don't want to be put through the ringer. I agree.

There is a moral code to life and enough is enough. Everyone wants to let people live free and die. That idea is one day going to kill us all. Everyone is not right! I wish I could really say the examples I see coming as ok lifestyles but i'm afraid it would cause an out cry,.

Needless to say eventually as a society we are going to have to figure out whether we are going to let everything slide because " we don't want to hurt people feelings" and we are going to say NO you need help, serious mental help. After all, it's one thing to dress like a guy and present yourself as such its a whole different level when you actually remove and change parts. We aren't Mr. & Mr's Potato heads with interchangeable parts, we are people. Sometimes things are just wrong and it's ok for them to be wrong.

As for my rubbed int the face, come on really the gay lifestyle is EVERYWHERE! Like i said I have no real problem with it i get it you're here, you're *, I should get used to it. I would however find it easier to get used to if you weren't so dang loud about and trying to tell me i'm wrong if i don't agree with 100% everything you say. It's everyone's business because eventually it will change laws, how programs are funded. ETC.

That is SO sweet! Maybe you and Golfie can become BFF's! You deserve each other!

 

[Kallista]

I completely understand where golfgirl is coming from. What worries me more is that int his small population so many attack her fro saying she is opposed to it. Hey golfgirl you are no alone, but you won't find many people post here because they don't want to be put through the ringer. I agree.

There is a moral code to life and enough is enough. Everyone wants to let people live free and die. That idea is one day going to kill us all. Everyone is not right! I wish I could really say the examples I see coming as ok lifestyles but i'm afraid it would cause an out cry,.

Needless to say eventually as a society we are going to have to figure out whether we are going to let everything slide because " we don't want to hurt people feelings" and we are going to say NO you need help, serious mental help. After all, it's one thing to dress like a guy and present yourself as such its a whole different level when you actually remove and change parts. We aren't Mr. & Mr's Potato heads with interchangeable parts, we are people. Sometimes things are just wrong and it's ok for them to be wrong.

As for my rubbed int the face, come on really the gay lifestyle is EVERYWHERE! Like i said I have no real problem with it i get it you're here, you're *, I should get used to it. I would however find it easier to get used to if you weren't so dang loud about and trying to tell me i'm wrong if i don't agree with 100% everything you say. It's everyone's business because eventually it will change laws, how programs are funded. ETC.

You know, I'm a Catholic and Protestent Christians drive me nuts when they pray in public. They make me even more nuts when they run for public office and think their moral stance should influence the laws in this country. I think they need serious mental help. They're heretics! Some things are just wrong. I really hate having my face rubbed in their heretical lifestyles! They divorce at the drop of a hat! We have to speak out against this lifestyle. It's everyone's business because eventually it wll change laws, how programs are funded.

 

[furb & dez]

"If we just keep gays from marrying, all will be right in our heterosexual world" "they are destroying marriage". which I never understood since they can't legally marry in many places how are gays responsible for destroying it?

Well, since divorce is the only way to destroy a marriage (other than death, of course), if you want to "save" marriage, why is there not a huge movement to make divorce illegal?

(*crickets* *crickets* *crickets* from the "marriage is sacred" people)

Why can't same sex couples get married?

Well, it's unnatural. After all, one of the main purposes of marriage is to produce and raise children, right? According to certain people.

So a marriage is invalid without children? And it's the government's responsibility to make sure all marriages are capable of producing children?

Well, putting aside how completely intrusive that argument is (especially since it tends to come from people who claim they want "less government"), if this is the case, then why doesn't the government mandate insurance coverage for infertility treatment? Why doesn't the government fund adoptions at 100%? If the government insists that a marriage MUST include children, why doesn't that apply to ALL marriages?

Exactly. If children are the reason for marriage, why are women over 45 allowed to get married at all? "Sorry, Grandma, you're not popping out any more kids, so you can't get married to Tommy Joe, whom you met in the nursing home in the twilight of your life..."

It's all just feeble excuses from people who want to use THEIR beliefs to control you. Because that's all this is really about—CONTROL.

 

[KarenF]

Chaz Bono can scream to the top of the trees that she is a man now, doesn't make it so.

She can legally change her name, take male hormones, have a mastectomy, hysterectomy and try to grow man parts. Doesn't change the fact her DNA is female and will ALWAYS be female.

Yes, I teach my kids it is stupid to try to change things that can't be changed. If they asked me about Chaz Bono, I would tell them she needs sympathy and pity because she couldn't love who she was, she was trying to always change what can never be really changed.

Define female DNA.

What is your exact definition of a woman?

At birth it is almost 100% based on a visual inspection of the gonads.

Don't know if this has been posted because I didn't read 22 pages.

(can't insert link because of post count. But google Report of Fertility in a Woman with a Predominantly 46,XY Karyotype in a Family with Multiple Disorders of Sexual Development.)


How many people here have had a chromosome screening?

In science, to be a law something has to be correct 100% of the time. If you disprove it once, it's disproven.

So based on the above link either men can have babies or you don't have to have XX to be female.

Which definition of female are we going to systematically shoot down first?

The sun, BTW, does not revolve around the earth. Which is also not flat.

 

[Magpie]

Define female DNA.

What is your exact definition of a woman?

At birth it is almost 100% based on a visual inspection of the gonads.

Don't know if this has been posted because I didn't read 22 pages.

(can't insert link because of post count. But google Report of Fertility in a Woman with a Predominantly 46,XY Karyotype in a Family with Multiple Disorders of Sexual Development.)


How many people here have had a chromosome screening?

In science, to be a law something has to be correct 100% of the time. If you disprove it once, it's disproven.

So based on the above link either men can have babies or you don't have to have XX to be female.

Which definition of female are we going to systematically shoot down first?

The sun, BTW, does not revolve around the earth. Which is also not flat.

Here's what you wanted to link: http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/93/1/182

And here's another useful page: http://www.aissg.org/21_OVERVIEW.HTM

Not quite so rare...

... is the type of intersex condition in which the sex chromosomes are either XY or XX (i.e. not a mixture) and the gonads are either testes or ovaries (i.e. not a mixture) - as in the majority of the population - but there is a mismatch or distortion in the usual alignment of these two elements (the '1' and '2' above) with the external genitalia (the '3' above).

This means that you can, for example, have an XY individual with testes but with an external appearance that is essentially female (i.e. an XY female: either completely female in appearance as in Complete AIS, or partly female in appearence as in Partial AIS) or an XX individual with ovaries but with some degree of male genital appearance (e.g. a woman with congenital adrenal hyperplasia or CAH).

Note that the term 'intersex' relates to the elements of this entire axis or alignment (the sex chromosomes, the gonads and the genitalia), and not just to the appearance of the external genitalia. A patient with the complete form of AIS (CAIS), or with Swyers Syndrome (XY gonadal dysgenesis), will always appear female externally (no ambiguity) but she is still intersexed, because she has XY chromosomes and internal testes (testicular streak gonads in the case of Swyers) that are considered at odds with her external femaleness.

Ignorance drives me crazy, especially when the information is easily accessible.

Personally I don't care whether Chaz is intersexed or not. I'd support his right to freedom of choice any which way. But NO ONE outside his family and their doctors can say with certainty whether he's an XX or an XY or anything in between.

Heck, you and I might have some chromosomal oddities of our own and never know it!

 

[snapppyd]

Didn't take long to smack down Christians.


Life really isn't that complicated. Compassion, tolerance and respect...go a long way.

Oh no, I was referring to this part of the article:


"Dancing" fans have posted both angry and supportive comments on the show's message boards. One called the casting choice "disgusting" and said "ABC should be ashamed of theirselves for harassing mainstream Americans and Christains."

I'm sorry I wasn't clear, I was not smacking down Christians, I was asking where is the love in the hearts of the Christians that are supposedly being harrassed.

 

[NickyKnack]

DWTS has had other reality tv stars do spots and Chaz has done some reality tv work (like celebrity boot camp or whatever it was called).

The only controversy that should be surrounding Chaz and DWTS's is ABC claiming Chaz is "A Star".

Being a stars child doesn't make you a star.

The TG thing? who cares?!

 

[NickyKnack]

Chaz is actually really good when it comes to buffing up when he needs to, and pulling out all the stops physically. When he was on Fit Club... Boot Camp... it's been too long, I don't remember the name clearly, he managed to impress Harvey and I didn't think ANYONE could do that.

Did not read all the rest of the responses. Good for Chaz.... Chasity or whomever he/she wishes to be. He is not doing anyone any harm. I respect his mother, Cher for standing up for her child. My only concern is his weight. I am well over weight and know how strenuous it would be to try to keep up with those dancing moves. Sure hope he is healthy enough and no harm comes his way.

 

[NickyKnack]

Hmmm then I guess that means the blue box has to make a stop by my Haven to pick me up, the Doc will have to pick me up first because I'm an Alpha, and we'll have to make a stop by Warehouse 13, but hey that's ok because I'm well on my way to being an ER Doctor...

That's how you play this game right? That was fun

And if we become what we watch, then

Eureka! I'm a Who in a Haven that has Real Housewives Flipping Out on Kardashians in a Twilight Zone populated with Suits who like Top Gear and Necessary Roughness.

agnes!