Live Nativity at Public School Christmas Concert

[TAX GUY]

This site (and I'm not vouching for it's accuracy): http://www.theopenscroll.com/hosting/SatanicCalendar.htm lists the Winter Solstice on the 22nd, Demon Reveals & Christmas Eve on the 24th.

Well then, assuming its accurate, if their display is a representation of their holiday, then enjoy the display. No different than the nativity or menorah or anything else. To erect and display just to poke fun or irritate others would be the wrong reason and should be subject to removal.

 

[ZephyrHawk]

This singing of Christmas carols in conjunction with other "holiday" related songs, is acceptable and not an impermissible linking of church and state. Court cases permit holiday displays which incorporate multiple cultural/religious themes.

The nativity scene is less clear cut, but if presented with the other holiday items in a general celebration of the season, is similarly acceptable. Also, the OP indicated that the staff, and not the students, participate in this aspect, meaning that no child is expected to do it for a grade. I think its annoying, but probably not illegal.

As an agnostic, I would be a little annoyed by the nativity scene, but I would not make a fuss. In all honesty, it's no different from them acting out scenes from the Grinch, or Snoopy and the Red Baron.

 

[luvsJack]

I don't think they care whether someone respects their beliefs. I think they put it up to make a point, and I think they've done it well. There are people who are upset with the 'Satanist' display, but have no problem with a nativity display. If you're going to allow one, you allow them all. There are people who think THEIR religion should be the only one displayed (hint: it's not the Satanists).

My point is that their reason for the display is not to represent their religion/beliefs, that is a totally different thing than anyone of any other religion putting up a display.

And just a hint: People are a lot more open than you think. What they do not like is to be disrespected. And putting up a display next to a religious display (of ANY religion) is disrespectful.

If they truly want to represent the Winter Solstice, no problem. If they just want to prove a point, not good.

 

[Acklander]

My point is that their reason for the display is not to represent their religion/beliefs, that is a totally different thing than anyone of any other religion putting up a display.

And just a hint: People are a lot more open than you think. What they do not like is to be disrespected. And putting up a display next to a religious display (of ANY religion) is disrespectful.

If they truly want to represent the Winter Solstice, no problem. If they just want to prove a point, not good.

Proving a point may not be good enough for you, but it's good enough for the Supreme Court. And how is putting up their display next to a religious display disrespectful?

 

[sam_gordon]

My point is that their reason for the display is not to represent their religion/beliefs, that is a totally different thing than anyone of any other religion putting up a display.

While I agree with you, how do you tell the difference? If the people putting up the display say "it's representative of the holidays we're celebrating", do you say "you're lying."?

And just a hint: People are a lot more open than you think. What they do not like is to be disrespected. And putting up a display next to a religious display (of ANY religion) is disrespectful.

I've readily admitted there are plenty of "open" people. I hope you're not really trying to deny that there are people who don't want ANY other displays aside from theirs. And I'm sorry, I don't see how putting up another display is disrespecting others. The simple solution... don't allow ANY displays on the courthouse square. Problem solved, right? After all, WHY does a nativity scene (or menorah or anything else) have to be in front of the court house? Why not put it up in the front yard of a church or other privately owned building (business or home)?

 

[TAX GUY]

Proving a point may not be good enough for you, but it's good enough for the Supreme Court. And how is putting up their display next to a religious display disrespectful?

If its done out of spite and/or for reasons other than promoting their own holiday, that's how.

 

[sam_gordon]

If its done out of spite and/or for reasons other than promoting their own holiday, that's how.

Wouldn't you need to know what's in someone's head then in order to decide whether it's disrespectful? Why not give someone the benefit of the doubt?

 

[TAX GUY]

Wouldn't you need to know what's in someone's head then in order to decide whether it's disrespectful? Why not give someone the benefit of the doubt?

I would (give them the benefit of the doubt). That's why I asked if there was a holiday around this time. If there is and they have a display that is directly related to that holiday (just like the nativity scene is with Christmas) then there's the benefit of the doubt. If its a display directly mocking the other, and no other reason, then there's no doubt...

 

[SMD]

I don't have a problem with anyone being paid to be off on their holy days and I never said that I did.

I don't and wouldn't have an issue with anyone, including dd's choir, singing songs from other faiths.

They do sing other tyoes of songs but the majprity for all the schools remains the same. I don't choose the music.

I said before my son and dil are atheist. Around here they are the minority. And I have always defended their right to their beliefs and will continue to do so. And would never stand by and let someone disrespect them or their beliefs.

What I do take issue with is the idea that as a Christian, I am supposed to embrace all other belief systems but others should not be required to embrace mine.

My remark had nothing to do with whether or not you should be paid for your holy days or I should be paid for Christmas. Or whether all winter holidays should be represnted at a school program. I don't have any problem with that. But don't tell me that our students or those of the OP should be offended doing something the love to do and put so much hard work into doing. Some of these kids are not Christian and they still love what they do.

I was not born into a miority but my kids have very dear friends that were and as such have been subjected to the same judgemental remarks and actions. Not something I let go silently. I have had gatherings in my home that included different races, Christians, Wiccans, Atheist and even a lone guy who claims to be a vampire. I have had the pleasure of hearing some interesting conversations on all of their beliefs or cultures. All of these folks went to the same high school that dd goes to now and none of them chose to be offended by music sung at a program.

My remark meant music and only music.

What I objected to was your 2 blanket statements about the music. That choir music comes from church and all schools only sing it. To just shrug and say those things and think that doesn't perpetuate the problem of kids being left out of activities is naive. I think there is a vast difference between saying Christians must embrace all other beliefs vs. it is not ok not to be open minded to being inclusive or respectful of others beliefs, or at the very least the fact that they don't share your beliefs. Just explaining it away as "choir music simply comes from the church" and "it is what every single school choir does" does not make the practice not exclusionary. I posted the other statements from this thread as an example of the things that the minority deal with on a daily basis, because the minor things, like the attitude that one should sing Christian music or exclude themselves from choir, does not end up being that different than the more egregious statements, like implying that Jews are doing something wrong by taking holiday pay when the majority don't get a paid day off for Yom Kippur or my favorite insensitive statement in this thread, that observing Christmas is a "traditional belief." I'm using being Jewish as an example because that's the experience I have, but it's probably the same for many others.

 

[luvsJack]

While I agree with you, how do you tell the difference? If the people putting up the display say "it's representative of the holidays we're celebrating", do you say "you're lying."?

I've readily admitted there are plenty of "open" people. I hope you're not really trying to deny that there are people who don't want ANY other displays aside from theirs. And I'm sorry, I don't see how putting up another display is disrespecting others. The simple solution... don't allow ANY displays on the courthouse square. Problem solved, right? After all, WHY does a nativity scene (or menorah or anything else) have to be in front of the court house? Why not put it up in the front yard of a church or other privately owned building (business or home)?

Oh, I admit that there are people that think that way. But the vast majority are just tired of being told that their celebrations, displays and any mention of their beliefs should be hid away and never shown but they should be accepting and respectful of other beliefs or non-beliefs.

The act of putting up a display is not disrespectful. Its the "lets make a point" reasoning in doing so that is.

How do you tell the difference? If we went to the "display them all" rather than taking down the Christian displays, they would back away and not be so interested.

You say that they are not the ones that only think their displays should be up but yet they are the ones raising heck every chance they get about any kind of display. I don't know that their actions prove your words.

Proving a point may not be good enough for you, but it's good enough for the Supreme Court. And how is putting up their display next to a religious display disrespectful?

Putting it up isn't. The reasons Sam stated they have for doing so are.

 

[sam_gordon]

Oh, I admit that there are people that think that way. But the vast majority are just tired of being told that their celebrations, displays and any mention of their beliefs should be hid away and never shown but they should be accepting and respectful of other beliefs or non-beliefs.

The act of putting up a display is not disrespectful. Its the "lets make a point" reasoning in doing so that is.

How do you tell the difference? If we went to the "display them all" rather than taking down the Christian displays, they would back away and not be so interested.

You say that they are not the ones that only think their displays should be up but yet they are the ones raising heck every chance they get about any kind of display. I don't know that their actions prove your words.



Putting it up isn't. The reasons Sam stated they have for doing so are.

Sorry, I call 'BS' on the bolded. Can you find someone saying Christian can't put up any displays? Christians own building and land, no one is trying to stop them from putting up whatever display they want there.

 

[Tarheel girl 1975]

The OP said "high school". That to me, says (and OP, please correct me if I am wrong) that this is a high school choir. Most high school choirs are a volunteer thing. They sign up, they audition, they are chosen. At any time in this process they can change their mind. Believe me, no one is being bullied because they are not in the choir. For the boys, it is usually quite the opposite.

When I was in school, choir was a class. It was an elective, but it was still a class that resulted in a grade. As a Jew, I am very upset by the suggestion that I or my children should just pass up the opportunity to do something enjoyable. While I don't find the idea of holiday songs in a concert which includes many types of music a problem, a nativity scene which acts out a major tenet of another religion does cross a line for me. They have churches for that.

Exactly and bring back the Merry Christmas too!

People always say this? But I don't get it. Where did it go? I hear more people complaining that they were wished a Happy Holiday than I do complaining about being wished a Merry Christmas.

 

[luvsJack]

What I objected to was your 2 blanket statements about the music. That choir music comes from church and all schools only sing it. To just shrug and say those things and think that doesn't perpetuate the problem of kids being left out of activities is naive. I think there is a vast difference between saying Christians must embrace all other beliefs vs. it is not ok not to be open minded to being inclusive or respectful of others beliefs, or at the very least the fact that they don't share your beliefs. Just explaining it away as "choir music simply comes from the church" and "it is what every single school choir does" does not make the practice not exclusionary. I posted the other statements from this thread as an example of the things that the minority deal with on a daily basis, because the minor things, like the attitude that one should sing Christian music or exclude themselves from choir, does not end up being that different than the more egregious statements, like implying that Jews are doing something wrong by taking holiday pay when the majority don't get a paid day off for Yom Kippur or my favorite insensitive statement in this thread, that observing Christmas is a "traditional belief." I'm using being Jewish as an example because that's the experience I have, but it's probably the same for many others.

Again, there are non-Christian students in the choir so obviously they are not feeling left out. He has had many times more to audition than he can possibly take and this is a small school. I don't see how any are feeling excluded.

I never said that Christmas is a traditional belief. It isn't for you. I never said that Jews should not get holiday pay for Yom Kippur.

I said if one doesn't want to sing the music that the choir sings, no one is forcing them to do anything. It is a choice.

If someone's beliefs did not allow their child to sing Pop music should the ensemble completely change the whole make up of the group? (Pop music is all that group does except for two selections during the school year)

If someone's beliefs did not allow a girl to take part in cheer dances, wear a cheer uniform or be touched by the male cheerleaders in lifts, should they completely change the way that the squad performs for this one student or start wearing sweatshirts and sweatpants to cheer?

If someone's beliefs did not allow a boy to take part in a sport that could be seen as "violence", should the school then go to flag football and do away with their team?

There is no possible way for every single solitary person's belief system to always be represented. That doesn't mean we can't value other beliefs and be respectful of them and allow them their time to be represented but it does mean that we should not have to change every single thing we do to make sure that no one ever has their toes stepped on.

 

[luvsJack]

Sorry, I call 'BS' on the bolded. Can you find someone saying Christian can't put up any displays? Christians own building and land, no one is trying to stop them from putting up whatever display they want there.

And that isn't what we were talking about now is it?

 

[luvsJack]

When I was in school, choir was a class. It was an elective, but it was still a class that resulted in a grade. As a Jew, I am very upset by the suggestion that I or my children should just pass up the opportunity to do something enjoyable. While I don't find the idea of holiday songs in a concert which includes many types of music a problem, a nativity scene which acts out a major tenet of another religion does cross a line for me. They have churches for that.





People always say this? But I don't get it. Where did it go? I hear more people complaining that they were wished a Happy Holiday than I do complaining about being wished a Merry Christmas.

The nativity scene isn't something our school does.

Choir is a class here too. But you have to audition and be selected to take the class. And yes, you get a grade. So do our basketball players, football players, and cheerleaders. They try out, if they make it, they are in the class.

 

[Hrhpd]

My point is that their reason for the display is not to represent their religion/beliefs, that is a totally different thing than anyone of any other religion putting up a display.

And just a hint: People are a lot more open than you think. What they do not like is to be disrespected. And putting up a display next to a religious display (of ANY religion) is disrespectful.

If they truly want to represent the Winter Solstice, no problem. If they just want to prove a point, not good.

So, you are saying your religion is more valid than another. Sorry, you do not get to make that choice.

IF one religion is allowed, then all religions are allowed, no matter what their reason. Nobody has the right to decide which religion has more validity than another.

 

[luvsJack]

So, you are saying your religion is more valid than another. Sorry, you do not get to make that choice.

IF one religion is allowed, then all religions are allowed, no matter what their reason. Nobody has the right to decide which religion has more validity than another.

Apparently there is a comprehension problem here. Do not put words in my mouth. I have not once said that my religion is more valid than another. Not once.

I meant that putting up a display beside a religious display of ANY KIND, of ANY RELIGION; out of just trying to prove a point is disrespectful.

 

[sam_gordon]

And that isn't what we were talking about now is it?

But you brought it up? Did I misunderstand you? Here's what I'm referring to...

But the vast majority are just tired of being told that their celebrations, displays and any mention of their beliefs should be hid away and never shown but they should be accepting and respectful of other beliefs or non-beliefs.

It sounds like you believe Christians (I assume that's what you mean by "vast majority") are being told they're not allowed any displays anywhere (I assume that's what you mean when you say "displays and any mention of their beliefs should be hid away and never shown")

If I misunderstood you, I apologize. Can you put that into simpler terms so I can understand?

 

[JanaDee]

My point is that their reason for the display is not to represent their religion/beliefs, that is a totally different thing than anyone of any other religion putting up a display.

And just a hint: People are a lot more open than you think. What they do not like is to be disrespected. And putting up a display next to a religious display (of ANY religion) is disrespectful.

If they truly want to represent the Winter Solstice, no problem. If they just want to prove a point, not good.

Who are you to say it isn't a display to represent their religion or beliefs?

Their display has nothing to do with your display and takes nothing away from your display, yet you keep insisting it somehow does? I wonder why.

 

[JanaDee]

Oh, I admit that there are people that think that way. But the vast majority are just tired of being told that their celebrations, displays and any mention of their beliefs should be hid away and never shown but they should be accepting and respectful of other beliefs or non-beliefs.

The act of putting up a display is not disrespectful. Its the "lets make a point" reasoning in doing so that is.

How do you tell the difference? If we went to the "display them all" rather than taking down the Christian displays, they would back away and not be so interested.

You say that they are not the ones that only think their displays should be up but yet they are the ones raising heck every chance they get about any kind of display. I don't know that their actions prove your words.



Putting it up isn't. The reasons Sam stated they have for doing so are.

Yet that is exactly what you are doing to others.