Limiting the size of tour groups touring a park together?

[Bill and Jen]

Here is my post from the Micro tour group thread. I think it has merit on its own.

We were at thew WDW June 28th to July 10th, the last few days there were enormouse tour groups and lots of them, Sat we saw at least 7 different groups of what looked to be 100 in each group and on Sunday we saw the similar numbers in Epcot.

First I would like to say that all groups we encountered were extremely well behaved, sad to day better than my own children behaved once in a while on our trip...

With that said, I really think Disney should not allow groups of that size to tour the parks together. I don't know the magic number groups should be allowed to tour the park together, but allowing 100+ people to walk from line to line together or get and use fast passes together totally throws off the normal distribution of wait times and is detrimental to the experience of all guests.

My opinions of the large tour groups touring the park as 1 group has nothing to do with were the group is from or even behavior of the groups, as I said, We did not have any negative dealings with any tour groups during our stay except for weird spikes in wait times.

 

[Queen2PrincessG]

I don't know as far as the Fastpasses go it's really not any different then having 100 random people in front of you.

 

[jayandstacey]

Yeah, not sure I see the issue in a park that holds 10s of thousands. In fact, to me, a group like that allows you to more precisely "avoid the bulge" which is to say to get in front of them or away from them...as they briefly take a 5 minute line and make it a 15 minute line.

As for Disney limiting this - I can't see they'd want to, and I'm not sure they practically could anyway. The people in that group might be in different resorts, under different names, etc.

 

[Bill and Jen]

Actually its very different, normally 100 people do not travel as a group and all enter a Queue at the same exact time on top of the normal ebb and flow of the smaller normal sized groups, speaking strictly from a statistical standpoint they totally throw off the normal distribution of line in a theme park.

While I do not know where a group of 100 people would fall on a distribution curve I can infer from my trips to the parks that the majority of groups would fall with 2, 3, 4, and 5 people per group, 100 would most likely change the distribution

Looking at that chart the 100 outliers would be way right of the example, but it give an idea of the change.

This will change wait times because there will be outliers that spike the crowd level beyond normal distribution.

This can be seen after a parade ends or a show lets out.

 

[Bill and Jen]

To say that a large tour group in one place would reduce the crowds in the rest of the park is a logical and mathematical fallacy. It would only make the crowds lesser by comparison.

I am not suggesting that they could not stay together or go to the parks together, just not tour the park as 1 large group, I am pretty sure it would be easy for Disney to spot 100 people wearing the same shirts and backpacks following a flag.

 

[IMGONNABE40!]

To say that a large tour group in one place would reduce the crowds in the rest of the park is a logical and mathematical fallacy. It would only make the crowds lesser by comparison.

I am not suggesting that they could not stay together or go to the parks together, just not tour the park as 1 large group, I am pretty sure it would be easy for Disney to spot 100 people wearing the same shirts and backpacks following a flag.

And then what is "Disney" supposed to do? You have said "all groups we encountered were extremely well behaved, sad to day better than my own children behaved once in a while on our trip..." Should "Disney" instead approach your group and say you can't tour together since your group isn't extremely well behaved? It is one thing when people complain about tour groups who are not behaving...but now to complain about the size of groups of folks who are acting just fine... Please...

 

[Bill and Jen]

And then what is "Disney" supposed to do? You have said "all groups we encountered were extremely well behaved, sad to day better than my own children behaved once in a while on our trip..." Should "Disney" instead approach your group and say you can't tour together since your group isn't extremely well behaved? It is one thing when people complain about tour groups who are not behaving...but now to complain about the size of groups of folks who are acting just fine... Please...

Finding a need to bring up arguments about behavior when I clearly stated that behavior had nothing to do with this (in fact you even quoted me) is nothing but a negative attack in an attempt to steer the conversation away from the point of wait time, and wait times only.

It amazes me how people will attack anything written on these boards. I had absolutely nothing negative to say about the actual tour groups, or the tour group participants.

 

[bobbyshawatl]

Do you bowl? I see this as a similar issue to bowling leagues. You as a single bowler walks into a bowling alley only to find every lane filled up with leagues, and no open bowling available. That might make you mad. BUT, look at it from the businesses perspective. That bowling league is guaranteed money. They have full usage of 4 or 5 bowlers on each lane, where you as a single bowler would only be paying for one bowler on one lane.

Same thing with Disney. These tour groups are guaranteed money. They will gladly book tour groups of 100's or even 1000's (if anything like that exists) to sell tickets, fill rooms, and fill parks. Yes, the single person or family may get inconvenienced if they get around one of these groups, but Disney has already been paid, and that's 100's of more people guaranteed to be eating food and buying souveniers in the park. I doubt they'd ever limit group sizes in the parks.

 

[jayandstacey]

I am familiar with distribution curves, standard deviations, outliers and the like.

They are a lump, but a small lump in a very big, fluid mass of people.

Take a ride like Everest, with a capacity of 1850 riders per hour with 4 trains running. (5 can run at peak times) One hundred people showing up at once would add about 4 minutes to the wait.

At the haunted mansion, with a capacity of 3200 per hour, such a group would add about 2 minutes to the wait.

Translated the opposite way...before noon, when the lines for such rides are building, more than 100 random people are showing up to those lines every 4 minutes, or every 2 minutes - otherwise the lines would not be getting longer. A group showing up really isn't much different.

The bigger issue, to me, is that the rides and park aren't designed to easily accomodate 100 people in the way 100 people tend to like to travel (in a roundish pack). So for instance, they show up at a ride and begin to enter...and take their time figuring out who goes first, who rides with who, who's staying back, etc. They can sometimes do this at the entrance, blocking others. If they do this for even 1 minute at the haunted mansion, it is a little like 150 people showed up at the same time, not just 100. So it can certainly seem worse. But of course, as they do this and you wait behind...the line inside is moving and getting shorter - so that washes out once you actually board the ride.

Groups can magnify their mpact if/when they go after things like dumbo, with a much smaller ride capacity. Groups can also be annoying when you're left standing for the next show (in a theater-like attraction) when you clearly would have made it had the group not been ahead of you.

But that's all just putting a single face on the reality that you could have made it had you showed up 5 minutes earlier - group or no group - and that's not the group's fault.

Yes of course large groups don't follow the center of the bell curve - but thats why it is a bell curve and not a box curve...there are outliers, lumps, high and low numbers... Even at peak times there may be 4 minute periods where no one gets on line for Everest, and that's at the other end of the bell curve. They are outliers but don't change the overall averages that are seen within an hour, day, week, month, etc...

 

[jayandstacey]

A few other thoughts:

1. I just don't know how Disney would enforce this. How together is too much? How coordinated does a group have to be to be broken up?

2. I'd also say that there's a huge, almost unspoken draw of people to...more people. We like to be in groups, we like to be around other people. For Disney to try something like this at all would be contrary to inate human nature to some degree. World Showcase is a perfect example, where the real draw is to be amongst others in a very social setting, with a bunch of town squares around the lake.

Now...having said that....of course Disney needs to keep an eye on them to assure their behavior stays in line (the family of 4 is their bread and butter, not the groups of 100) and that they don't collectively begin to impede on others even if indirectly through things like commercial or religious messages that are unsolicited.

 

[jayandstacey]

This will change wait times because there will be outliers that spike the crowd level beyond normal distribution.

This can be seen after a parade ends or a show lets out.

To your point, parades and shows have much higher numbers - a few hundered to a few thousand for a show, and maybe 10 thousand or more for a parade. These kinds of numbers will impact the entire system...both during the parade/show as that many people are taken out of the "stream" and then again after the parade or show when those people suddenly reenter the stream at the same time.

A group of 100 can only impact one place/ride at a time, and I still believe the impact is very nearly negligible unless the ride is a very low capacity ride like Dumbo. In the aggregate, a number of groups in the park will effectively cancel each other out, as some will be riding while others are eating, etc. Over the course of a day, the groups will simply wash out to the averages, even while continuing to have 2, 4, 6 minute impacts on the rides they choose.

Interesting topic, though I believe Disney wouldn't ever turn away groups, even if they really gummed up the rides - for the other reasons we've already mentioned.

 

[maxiesmom]

I guess I don't see the problem. The tour group or groups you saw were well behaved. They didn't negatively impact your day. And yet you find something to complain about?

I don't think Disney should tell people how many can be in their group at any given time. No way around it, it would come off as rude and condescending. And 100 people in a park that holds thousands really doesn't have that much of an impact anyway.

Nothing needs to be fixed here.

 

[TDC Nala]

Not gonna happen. To Disney, large groups = big $$$. Not to mention it's practically unenforceable (would they have "groups spotters" on the entry plazas who go up to a big group with a flag and say "You're too big, you'll have to break up, half of you go to another park"), so they'd have to say "no groups of more than a certain number" which they will probably never do.

 

[caaraa]

Good opinions.

 

[whacked]

As a family travelling in a group of 4, I love large tour groups.

It is impossible to tour the parks in a rapid manner with a large group. They're alway waiting for each other to get on rides, get off rides, go to the bathroom, eat, etc. Anyone who's tried to tour the park with more than about 6 people has probably experienced this.

That means that while I'm touring the park in an efficient manner, they're waiting for their group.

The bigger, the better as far as I'm concerned. I can work around them.

 

[dudelydude]

This is ponderous. Who cares? The way I see it, spotting such a big group tells me where they are at, so I know to run the other way if I need to. Now I gotta head over to the other ponderous thread of the day comparing the monorail to the ferry trip from TTC to MK. That thread may just be worse.

 

[WTDing]

The only difference between a random group of 100 people and 100 people in a tour group is that the tour group are wearing the same shirt. You wouldn't take any notice of them if they were dressed differently.

On a busy day in the MK look in any direction and I guarantee that you will see a mass of at least 100 people. They will be getting in line, standing in the way and meandering around the park.

For statistics purposes the individuals and more important than the group they are standing in. The normal distirbution curve does not apply here. And even if it did don't forget that the 100 people in a tour group aren't all there "together"; they came on the same bus and wear the same shirt but this group is made up of small groups like your own that just happen to have a guide. This comes into play when getting in lines; its not like all 100 people have to randomly figure out who they will be riding with. Each family or sub group in the larger group will do this just like the random groups of 1 -10 people who are also touring the park.

 

[FireDancer]

It is more likely that I will levitate out of my seat and fly myself home than Disney would limit the size of a tour group.

As long as they all paid to get in and don't break any park rules that would get them removed from the parks I don't think there is any good (read: economic) reason to limit them.

 

[peachygreen]

The only time I could see this as a big issue would be if you were unfortunate enough to get behind the fast pass volunteer with 100 tickets in their hands to get FP for their entire group at one time. I could see some sort of limit like each person can only collect X # of fast pass tickets at one time but I'm not even sure how that could reasonably be enforced.

 

[WTDing]

The only time I could see this as a big issue would be if you were unfortunate enough to get behind the fast pass volunteer with 100 tickets in their hands to get FP for their entire group at one time. I could see some sort of limit like each person can only collect X # of fast pass tickets at one time but I'm not even sure how that could reasonably be enforced.

Yes, this.