kids not being taught how to write in cursive at schools, anymore?

[bicker]

Ok, yep you are right, the car is the root of all evil.

Indeed, that is my point: We're generally unwilling to blame things that we see as inevitable, but the reality that you're denying is unequivocal. Why not address the point itself, i.e., that the elements of social fabric you've touched on changed as a reflection of the ability to live out our lives anywhere in the country (and increasingly, anywhere in the world) that we'd like.

Funny, but the car didn't take away written communication for a very long time.

There are still people alive who grew up in families without cars, in families where going to the nearest big city was a big deal. Changing the social fabric takes time.

to each their own

This is the critical point, and somewhat contradicts what you said earlier.

but I think a personal card is sometimes far superior than a text or e mail. My opinion and I will stick to it.

Perhaps we're talking past each other. I am surely not saying that you shouldn't be making such decisions with regard to your own expressions of sympathy or greeting toward another. Rather, I was responding to your categorical judgment about others, who choose to have their own opinion (contrary to yours) and choose to "stick to it". The point is - well - precisely as you said in this more recent message: "to each their own". Since this is a matter of, as you pointed out, "opinion", each person's actions necessarily need to be judged against their own opinion with regard to what is appropriate.

 

[bicker]

That is only your OPINION, and not a fact. Or did I miss the official rules?

Until someone stands up and says that letter-writing is about the drawing, I don't see this is a major concern. Generally, even those who prefer letter-writing are reluctant to admit that they place a large value on drawing skills over the sentiment expressed. They're too concerned about being accused of putting form over content.

 

[mhsjax]

Indeed, that is my point: We're generally unwilling to blame things that we see as inevitable, but the reality that you're denying is unequivocal. Why not address the point itself, i.e., that the elements of social fabric you've touched on changed as a reflection of the ability to live out our lives anywhere in the country (and increasingly, anywhere in the world) that we'd like.

There are still people alive who grew up in families without cars, in families where going to the nearest big city was a big deal. Changing the social fabric takes time.

This is the critical point, and somewhat contradicts what you said earlier.

Perhaps we're talking past each other. I am surely not saying that you shouldn't be making such decisions with regard to your own expressions of sympathy or greeting toward another. Rather, I was responding to your categorical judgment about others, who choose to have their own opinion (contrary to yours) and choose to "stick to it". The point is - well - precisely as you said in this more recent message: "to each their own". Since this is a matter of, as you pointed out, "opinion", each person's actions necessarily need to be judged against their own opinion with regard to what is appropriate.

Yes to each their own. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean that I would think less of the person sending me an e mail or text. I would not do it myself and would feel tacky, but if someone where to send me something then no I wouldn't think less of them. Now if they sent a test using text lingo, then yeah, I may be upset, at least spell out your words.

Still think it is tacky as a general rule, but as rules go there are always exceptions, and yes there are plenty in this area. But still Hallmark isn't the booming business that it is just because I think it is tacky.

Also for what it's worth. I don't care if it is written in cursive or not. Thought I would through that in, this is what the thread was originally about after all.

 

[bethbuchall]

I always hear that argument. Are there any studies about that? I often wonder if that is really true. Of coruse, back when we were all forced to use cursive for most school work it would be what we were used to and therefore what most peopel could write faster in (though I was ane xception then too) but all things being equal (like equal amounts of work being done in both as practice over the years, etc., is one way truly consistently faster than the other? I print much faster than I write in cursive. I always took notes (very detailed ones too) in college in print and managed just fine with many times essays tests as an English major--printing them all (being over 30 I am far too ancient to have been around for the essay portion of the SAT).

Many people that I know (myself included) can print much faster (and more legibly) than they can write in cursive. I remember hearing this argument when I was in high school.

I would much rather have my son focus on the facts that he knows and how to effectively communicate his ideas than on his letter formation. As I said before, I am supporting the teachers for now. If I see that this is seriously compromising his ability to communicate or bringing down his grades, I will take action. I am not against them learning cursive. In fact, I think that it is important that they do. Once they have learned it, however, I think that they should be allowed to write in the manner that is most comfortable to them as long as it is legible.

 

[loxie]

They should do away with algebra to, I've never once in my adult life used that & there's calculators so why should they bother to teach that either?...hahah

Personally I think cursive looks WAY better then print.

 

[bethbuchall]

I am starting to understand why so many people do not bother to send thank you notes anymore. They may as well skip the work all together and be seen as rude and tacky for that if the note they send is going to be considered takcy/rude anyway. I am happy to get a not so that i know the recipient actually received their gift and that they like it (or are good at faking it and at least polite!). It has never occurred to me to criticize HOW it gets to me (email, snail mail, delivered via friend or family member) or HOW it is written (typed, cursive, print, drawn picture, in pen or maker or pencil, etc.). I think it is really sad to discount someone's expression of gratitude as "tacky" and be "mortified" to receive it just because the form is not the form you use.

I agree. I remember reading threads about how people received Christmas cards that weren't "right" (not personalized the correct way, too personal, etc) as well. Why bother?

We do send mailed thank you notes, sympathy cards, etc. but I am happy to receive the expressions in any form. I do hope that my thank you notes are not considered sub-par because I choose to print instead of write in cursive. I do put a lot of thought into them.

 

[barkley]

ds is in 7th grade-this is the first year since 1st grade that "handwriting" (cursive) is not a daily subject in his curriculum. i spoke with his teacher just a few weeks ago about reading of this movement to eliminate cursive instruction, and learned that the school system ds is in has discussed the issue, and is adamant that it will continue to be taught for what i think are a couple of valid reasons.

one being-they want their students, even if they ultimatly opt as adults to print or keyboard everything, to be able to read cursive. the thought being that if they cannot they are limited to reading only printed or typed materials (the sentimentalist in me appreciates this b/c i would like to think that someday my kids might want to read the love letters and correspondance i have of their grandparents during WW2, the names and information on the backs of photos of their great and great great relatives-all written in cursive).

the other main reasoning is because the school has a heavy emphasis on students being able to "write". by this i mean-construct written communication using proper spelling, grammar and sentance structure ABSENT spell/grammar check and other programs (they are taught to use those tools in their very comprehensive computing curriculum). they reason that in order to evaluate their students on this IN CLASS within a reasonable time frame, they need to provide instruction in what they believe is a faster means of writing than printing (not going to argue the scientific merit of this, but i have to admit that i am one of those whose cursive is much faster than my printing). this way they can do what i well remember doing as a kid in school-be given x amount of time in class to write a "theme" or "overview" of a certain length-with weighted grading on the spelling, grammer...


i know-ds's school is the "odd duck" structure wise as compared to most everyone else's i've seen on the dis. it's the literal "one room school house" (well, 2 rooms b/c they separate k-4th, and 5th-8th now). they still teach cursive, sentence diagraming (again, part of multi year curriculum) AND just bought a new math curriculum that incorporates "doing it in your head" (which they've taught all along). i am just finding it realy interesting now that dd has graduated from that school and entered public highschool to see how many of the subjects that she was taught with regularity were just lightly touched upon by her peers in the traditional schools (private and public). an issue that's causing our public highschools to look at having to add new curriculum requirements down the line because they are getting feedback from the colleges and universities that many of even the "top" scholars lack the independant (from a computer) writing skills necessary to do other than bubble tests

 

[bethbuchall]

They should do away with algebra to, I've never once in my adult life used that & there's calculators so why should they bother to teach that either?...hahah

Personally I think cursive looks WAY better then print.

Apples to oranges.

Personally, I think print looks WAY better than cursive. I certainly don't care if someone chooses to use cursive, though, and insist that they switch to my preference. Also, print is often more legible than cursive. How many times have you seen a form that asks you to print? The post office prefers that envelopes are addressed in print as well.

 

[kwitcherkicken99]

DS's preschool is teaching the kids cursive letters. I thought it was weird at first, but the "syllabus" they follow has them teaching both.

 

[bicker]

I would not do it myself and would feel tacky ... Still think it is tacky as a general rule, but as rules go there are always exceptions, and yes there are plenty in this area.

It is not even a general rule. A criterion is general rule if it is generally-accepted. A criterion about which people disagree, as in this case, isn't a general rule.

I agree that it would be tacky for someone, such as yourself, to do it, since you yourself feel it would be tacky. Again, it's a matter of judging someone by their standards, on matters where people disagree.

But still Hallmark isn't the booming business that it is just because I think it is tacky.

Hallmark is in business to sell greeting cards. The industry has made up myriad occasions that suddenly need greeting cards that did not need such in the past. A single industry's vested financial interest is not a firm basis on which to set social standards.

Also for what it's worth. I don't care if it is written in cursive or not. Thought I would [throw] that in, this is what the thread was originally about after all.

Indeed. I think several of us noted that inconsistency in the OP, that the thread seemed to be about cursive, but the OP seemed to indicate that the absence of cursive meant that letters therefore could not be written. However, since it was the OP, I don't think we can say that it is off-topic; rather, we can just note that the thread subject doesn't seem to match the OP. I'm not sure it really serves much purpose, though, to discuss the discussion to that depth, though.

Many people that I know (myself included) can print much faster (and more legibly) than they can write in cursive.

Yes, this is critical imho: The point of writing, despite Big Cuddly Bear's insinuation, is to express thoughts and feelings. Therefore, respect for the reader dictates that writers use the means of communication that is best at expressing thoughts and feelings. Legible print clearly wins, over illegible cursive. Indeed, I feel that, in most cases, legible print wins, over legible cursive, since in most cases people can print more legibly than they can write cursive.

I would much rather have my son focus on the facts that he knows and how to effectively communicate his ideas than on his letter formation.

 

[mhsjax]

I don't care what people say in their cards or if they print or draw, ( i have gotten such cute cards from kids). You hit the nail on the head. You put thought into yours. That is what matters, and I guess in my mind a written card or letter even if drawn by a child had more meaning and thought than a text message. Again, my personal opinion, but I like being able to put my hands on something. I like having the actual cards that I received after my mother's passing, and not some e mail saved in a folder on my computer.

 

[mhsjax]

It is not even a general rule. A criterion is general rule if it is generally-accepted. A criterion about which people disagree, as in this case, isn't a general rule.

I agree that it would be tacky for someone, such as yourself, to do it, since you yourself feel it would be tacky. Again, it's a matter of judging someone by their standards, on matters where people disagree.

Hallmark is in business to sell greeting cards. The industry has made up myriad occasions that suddenly need greeting cards that did not need such in the past. A single industry's vested financial interest is not a firm basis on which to set social standards.

Indeed. I think several of us noted that inconsistency in the OP, that the thread seemed to be about cursive, but the OP seemed to indicate that the absence of cursive meant that letters therefore could not be written. However, since it was the OP, I don't think we can say that it is off-topic; rather, we can just note that the thread subject doesn't seem to match the OP. I'm not sure it really serves much purpose, though, to discuss the discussion to that depth, though.


Yes, this is critical imho: The point of writing, despite Big Cuddly Bear's insinuation, is to express thoughts and feelings. Therefore, respect for the reader dictates that writers use the means of communication that is best at expressing thoughts and feelings. Legible print clearly wins, over illegible cursive. Indeed, I feel that, in most cases, legible print wins, over legible cursive, since in most cases people can print more legibly than they can write cursive.

But why are such occasions made up if texting and e mail is ok. The world still loves to send written correspondence, other wise Hallmark would be out of business. Any occasion could be a reason to send and e mail or text, but no, people still do buy cards and actually write things on them and even more shocking, mail them.

What I do agree with is printing, if anyone saw DH writing they wouldn't think it was a 3 year old doing it.

 

[bicker]

They should do away with algebra to, I've never once in my adult life used that & there's calculators so why should they bother to teach that either?...hahah

It should be noted that the purpose of learning Algebra is mostly to learn patterns of thought, rather than actually learn how to "do Algebra". Elementary, secondary and college mathematics is all about learning how to learn; learning specific ways of thinking, of analyzing.

 

[bicker]

But why are such occasions made up if texting and e mail is ok.

If Hallmark had its way, TXTing and email wouldn't be okay. However, again, a single industry's vested financial interest is not a firm basis on which to set social standards.

The world still loves to send written correspondence, other wise Hallmark would be out of business.

Hallmark doesn't speak for the whole world. If you dig into competitor American Greetings's financials (Hallmark is a private company), you'd know that the industry has been declining since long before the recession. They've had to "make up" these occasions just to try to lose less ground than they would have lost otherwise. If we're making pronouncements for the world, then the pronouncement we have to make is that the world increasingly loves to send electronic communications and the world's interest in sending written communications is decreasing.

 

[punkin]

ds is in 7th grade-this is the first year since 1st grade that "handwriting" (cursive) is not a daily subject in his curriculum. i spoke with his teacher just a few weeks ago about reading of this movement to eliminate cursive instruction, and learned that the school system ds is in has discussed the issue, and is adamant that it will continue to be taught for what i think are a couple of valid reasons.

one being-they want their students, even if they ultimatly opt as adults to print or keyboard everything, to be able to read cursive. the thought being that if they cannot they are limited to reading only printed or typed materials (the sentimentalist in me appreciates this b/c i would like to think that someday my kids might want to read the love letters and correspondance i have of their grandparents during WW2, the names and information on the backs of photos of their great and great great relatives-all written in cursive).

the other main reasoning is because the school has a heavy emphasis on students being able to "write". by this i mean-construct written communication using proper spelling, grammar and sentance structure ABSENT spell/grammar check and other programs (they are taught to use those tools in their very comprehensive computing curriculum). they reason that in order to evaluate their students on this IN CLASS within a reasonable time frame, they need to provide instruction in what they believe is a faster means of writing than printing (not going to argue the scientific merit of this, but i have to admit that i am one of those whose cursive is much faster than my printing). this way they can do what i well remember doing as a kid in school-be given x amount of time in class to write a "theme" or "overview" of a certain length-with weighted grading on the spelling, grammer...


i know-ds's school is the "odd duck" structure wise as compared to most everyone else's i've seen on the dis. it's the literal "one room school house" (well, 2 rooms b/c they separate k-4th, and 5th-8th now). they still teach cursive, sentence diagraming (again, part of multi year curriculum) AND just bought a new math curriculum that incorporates "doing it in your head" (which they've taught all along). i am just finding it realy interesting now that dd has graduated from that school and entered public highschool to see how many of the subjects that she was taught with regularity were just lightly touched upon by her peers in the traditional schools (private and public). an issue that's causing our public highschools to look at having to add new curriculum requirements down the line because they are getting feedback from the colleges and universities that many of even the "top" scholars lack the independant (from a computer) writing skills necessary to do other than bubble tests

Well, that's where most schools are heading. I saw this when DD11 went to a public middle school after years in a "one room" schoolhouse type of place. She was miles ahead in social studies and grammar. She cannot even be compared to other students in her knowledge of Geography (another subject that seems to matter less and less). Her Lexile score (which I had never heard of prior to last year but is apparently a "big deal") is solidly in the 12th grade range.

However, she is having a hard time with standardized tests because she tends to over-think the questions. I guess she is lacking the important skill of bubbling in. How will she ever make anything of herself? Oh and she writes in cursive too.

 

[mhsjax]

If Hallmark had its way, TXTing and email wouldn't be okay. However, again, a single industry's vested financial interest is not a firm basis on which to set social standards.

Hallmark doesn't speak for the whole world. If you dig into competitor American Greetings's financials (Hallmark is a private company), you'd know that the industry has been declining since long before the recession. They've had to "make up" these occasions just to try to lose less ground than they would have lost otherwise. If we're making pronouncements for the world, then the pronouncement we have to make is that the world increasingly loves to send electronic communications and the world's interest in sending written communications is decreasing.

I won't argue with you because I don't follow financial reports. I just know our Hallmark is always busy. I know my friends have cards for every occasion. And while they may send you a text or e mail or even say it on your Face book, usually you will get a card when they see you. I Don't think that just because the "world" loves doing something that it is ok, but I won't and can't get into that here. I will not let the rest of the world dictate what I think is tacky and not tacky, I have my own opinions and have been in many arguments about them. There are still a few of us out there that prefer some things done the old fashioned way. So people can feel free to text me or e mail me, if a test I won't get it until maybe a day or so later. I don't live on my phone and refuse to do so, but that is me. Really kind of silly since I am sitting here talking to people I don't know via a computer.

Time for breakfast.

 

[bicker]

I won't argue with you because I don't follow financial reports.

There's loads of great insights into what's really happening, in the business pages of the newspaper. Politicians and advocates talk talk talk and often blow smoke, but there's no denying what people are and are not spending their money on. Talk is cheap; real insights come when people put their money where their mouths are.

I just know our Hallmark is always busy.

Hallmark has been closing stores left and right. The best info available indicates that they've gone from almost 5,000 stores in 2000 to less than 2,000 stores now. [answers.com] No wonder the remaining stores are so busy.

I know my friends have cards for every occasion.

And my friends don't. What's the point?

I Don't think that just because the "world" loves doing something that it is ok, but I won't and can't get into that here. I will not let the rest of the world dictate what I think is tacky and not tacky, I have my own opinions and have been in many arguments about them.

Given what you wrote earlier, isn't it reasonable to expect you to do things according to your beliefs and values? If so, then wouldn't it be reasonable to expect everyone else to do so as well - to do things according to their own beliefs and values? Therefore, what constructive purpose does it serve to expect other people to do anything other than do things according to their beliefs and values? I suppose what I'm having trouble understanding is how what you're suggesting actually helps anything.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Oh come on, that is completely different. Just like I wouldn't send a neighbor a card about something that had just happened. I think you are reading too much into what I am saying.

Lets say that friend, right next door got bad news about her parents or family member. I would call or go over and say Sorry, is there anything I can do, or even test her at work, that type of thing, But if her family member passed away, like mine did, And yes I received actual cards from people, yes the ones that had previously just spoken to me about how sorry they were, and was there anything they could do. I would THEN, send a sympathy card through the mail. This is COMPLETELY different, and I think that almost anyone would realize that is what some of us are talking about.

I truly did not get from your earlier post that you would think that was a compltely different situation. I really didn't None the less, while I also tend to give people actual paper cards in such situations--I do not always. If I am there and I bring flowers and food and help clean the house for the family and do whatever else I can to BE there for them I may not take the time to write out a card. Thinking back I do not think a sent a card to my grandmother when my grandfather died (this was 14 years ago so I am not positive). We were both in the US, just different states and I could not go to the funeral as I was 8 months pregnant and not allowed to travel. I know I called her. I know I sent a fruit basket. I know i sent her flowers the next month on her anniversary. I am thinking I may well have not actually sent a true handwritten card. I certainly love her and loved my grandfather though.

Or rather, how society is developing new types of social skills, that many in the older generation don't recognize as such, and/or refuse to grant as such. The key is that every generation has said this about the next generation, as far back as you can go.

There's an interesting book, that touches on this, that folks might want to read:

​

http://books.google.com/books?id=3aVSIBHm2s8C

It sounds like an interesting book. I will have to see if it is available on Kindle.

More importantly than writing it (although I think writing it is very important still), how will these kids read other people's writing in the real world? Many, many people still write in script, and these kids who don't learn script will be at a huge disadvantage in the job market. We own a small business, and I can tell you I couldn't and wouldn't hire someone who couldn't read script. Don't know if I'd even know that in the interview, but if they couldn't read it they wouldn't be able to function at their job, and I'd know soon enough.

My kids went to a private catholic school until 4th and 2nd grade... I think they taught cursive starting in 2nd there (maybe 3rd).

We homeschool now, so it's in my hands (as was their education even when they went to school - one of the big reasons I started hsing in the first place), and of course they will use cursive in their lives in the real world, so of course it's something we do.

Both my kids can READ script just fine. Only one can write in it (and she never really does). They can also read calligraphy and italics and all kinds of writing they can not reproduce (actually my DD13 does write calligraphy--with a true nib pen you dip in ink, and she seals letters with wax too! Maybe we should bring ALL of these things back too and consider anything less to be offensive as not taking enough time to show you truly care).

Ok, yep you are right, the car is the root of all evil. Funny, but the car didn't take away written communication for a very long time.

to each their own, but I think a personal card is sometimes far superior than a text or e mail. My opinion and I will stick to it.

I have no issue with you having the opinion that you prefer them, and therefore sending them yourself. I think it is pretty low though to think poorly of those who send you a greeting with only goodwill in their hearts because they do not share your opinion. My DD has literally never sent a store bought card. She doesn't care for them and much prefers to put the effort into making something by hand. She tends to use calligraphy in letters, and her cards can be quite elaborate and nice and ON AVERAGE take her 2-3 hours to produce. They are lovely works of art. She puts a lot of herself into them because she wants the receiver to know how much she cares. She does not expect anyone else to send her similar cards though. In fact, she tells her brother (for whom the actual act of forming letters is stressful and difficult in spite of years of therapy) to not write anything for her. She (like myself) is thrilled with a phone call, an email, a handwritten card or a homemade one.

Many people that I know (myself included) can print much faster (and more legibly) than they can write in cursive. I remember hearing this argument when I was in high school.

I would much rather have my son focus on the facts that he knows and how to effectively communicate his ideas than on his letter formation. As I said before, I am supporting the teachers for now. If I see that this is seriously compromising his ability to communicate or bringing down his grades, I will take action. I am not against them learning cursive. In fact, I think that it is important that they do. Once they have learned it, however, I think that they should be allowed to write in the manner that is most comfortable to them as long as it is legible.

Apples to oranges.

Personally, I think print looks WAY better than cursive. I certainly don't care if someone chooses to use cursive, though, and insist that they switch to my preference. Also, print is often more legible than cursive. How many times have you seen a form that asks you to print? The post office prefers that envelopes are addressed in print as well.

Good point

I don't care what people say in their cards or if they print or draw, ( i have gotten such cute cards from kids). You hit the nail on the head. You put thought into yours. That is what matters, and I guess in my mind a written card or letter even if drawn by a child had more meaning and thought than a text message. Again, my personal opinion, but I like being able to put my hands on something. I like having the actual cards that I received after my mother's passing, and not some e mail saved in a folder on my computer.

Maybe Hallmark is so busy because so many lazy and rude people cannot be bothered to make their own cards See, this can just keep going. Your way is not better than other people's (except to Hallmark shareholders) and my way is not either. They are just different.

 

[coneygoil]

Teaching cursive was a requirement when I was in school. We learned in the 3rd grade (in 1991 starting to feel old) and it took a while, but I grew to really like cursive. It's a very pretty way of writing, though like you said, nowadays no one really writes letters, which is horrible! In the early 2000's, I had a lot of penpals I met online and I wrote and recieved over a hundred letters. But I guess in this generation and the technology that has sprung up since then, no one cares anymore to send letters and that makes me sad

 

[Robinrs]

The postal service won't go out entirely. What will people do on Ebay??

My sister just retired from the Post Office and she told me before she left that if there were no elderly people or eBay they'd be BROKE!