"Is the Flying Dutchman Curse Broken?"

[mrs_leibniz@yahoo.co]

Ok, so I'm bringing this topic here, since I don't know where else to post it. It started on this thread: http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?p=19568527&posted=1#post19568527 However, since that thread got into this discussion, though still relevant, it was a bit off-topic since it wasn't directly related to POTC4. Mods if I'm posting this in the wrong place, feel free to move to the appropriate Dis forum. Thanks!

I'll bring some of the arguments in here now. Feel free to join in the conversation.

There was a big, long discussion elsewhere on these boards that brought up something interesting (I only read it the other day after FINALLY seeing the movie). One of the people said that s/he had seen an interview with, hmm, maybe Bruckheimer (maybe someone else) that went along with the interesting thing, and they said that there was a deleted scene that explained it...

I don't know if this is "true" or not, but it was interesting. That part of the Flying Dutchman curse is that if your true love waits for you and is there at the 10 years, then the curse of being bound to the ship is lifted (could be why Davy Jones was so upset with Tia/Callypso for not being there?). Of course, he still has no heart (still trying to figure out how he can have no heart but still have, you know, the ability to make a baby, but I digress...and heck, Davy Jones did create tears when sad, so there we are), but he doesn't have to be on the ship for 10 years at a time.

At first I doubted, but then I thought "hey, that's interesting".

Hi everyone! Great debate and just to reinforce what Bumbershoot said, here's what I found on a the website Wikipedia......

After World's End
"The film's writers have allegedly stated that Elizabeth's fidelity to Will during his ten-year absence permanently removes his ties to the Dutchman and therefore he gets his heart back and lives, as explained in a scene between Tia Dalma and Davy Jones, but that this scene was not included in the final cut of the film. [1] They have also stated that it will be included in the deleted scenes when the DVD for the film is released. However, the fans are still left to speculate upon whether Will must return to the sea and his duties after his second day ashore."

This does explain why Davy Jones was so upset that Tia wasn't there after the 10 years to meet him and why he went all mad and stopped ferrying the dead soles to the other world and turned into a fishy-thingy! (oooh that gave me the heeby-jeebies watching that - yuk!!!!)

So who knows if there will be a 4th installment or not! There have been rumours that there will be and then again talk that there won't so I'm just waiting for the DVD to come out so I can watch "Captain" Will Turner over and over again!!....mmmm lovely!!

The Wikipedia information you included above is not quite accurate. If you visit the forums at www.Wordplayer.com you'll know that isn't true. In case you are wondering, Wordplayer is Terry Rossio's and Ted Elliott's website. They are the writers of the Pirates of the Caribbean trilogy.

Nowhere has it been stated that the Flying Dutchman curse was lifted. At the conclusing of At World's End, we are shown an After the Credits Scene. We see Will return after his first 10 years. Elizabeth is waiting on land with presumably, Will's son. However, there isn't anything in the movie that states the Flying Dutchman curse was lifted. After his one day on land, Will has to go back to doing his job as Captain of the Flying Dutchman. That is, he has to ferry the souls lost at sea to the afterlife.

Over at Wordplayer, Terry Rossio stated that the curse specifications didn't impose any restrictions on Elizabeth (that includes fidelity/chastity/faithfulness). The Captaincy of the Flyting Dutchman is a job that takes place for eternity*, or until there is another person who takes over the position. However, in order to take over the duties of Captain of the Flying Dutchman, the next captain has to stab Will's heart. Just like Will stabbed Davy Jones' heart. If someone else stabs Will's heart, he dies, just like Davy died.

Furthermore, anything to do with a cut scene from At World's End is not considered cannon. As the writers have stated if it isn't in the movie, it isn't cannon. Over at Wordplayer someone named Lauren asked the following.

Posted by Lauren on Wednesday, 13 June 2007, at 12:25 p.m. Hey Ted and Terry! I know y'all are busy, but if you wouldn't mind, do you think you could give us the dialogue or part of the dialogue from the scene that got cut from the movie (the one that explains that Will can stay on land with Liz). I believe that it is a happy ending and I feel that I completely understand this movie- but I would die to see that dialogue Thanks!

Originally Posted by Terry Rossio writer of POTC Terry Rossio's answer to Lauren: Posted by Terry on Wednesday, 13 June 2007, at 4:58 p.m., in response to Ted/Terry Request, posted by Lauren on Wednesday, 13 June 2007, at 12:25 p.m.

No, you have to go with what's in the film.@

Source: http://www.wordplayer.com/forums/movies/in...cgi?read=101184



*In AWE, Elizabeth's father, Governor Swann says: "I learned that if you stab the heart, yours must take its place. And you will sail the seas for eternity. The Dutchman must have a Captain. Silly thing to die for." This makes is quite clear the curse is not broken after the first 10 years. Will is an immortal. Ted Elliott even confirms that William's heart can never be physically returned to his chest. Read the following Wordplayer quote:

Originally Posted by Ted Elliot writer of POTC
Posted by Ted Elliott on Tuesday, 29 May 2007, at 5:29 p.m., in response to Why did they cut Will's heart out?, posted by Ruth on Tuesday, 29 May 2007, at 10:02 a.m.

....once Will stabbed the heart, his *had* to take its place in the chest. When he stabbed the heart (with Jack's help), he did it to prevent himself from taking that long journey to wherever Swann and the others went; but the obligation that went along with that choice was, his heart gets cut out and put in the chest. It wasn't an either-or thing.

As to whether or not Will's heart can ever be restored to his body: personally, I don't think so. But I'd be interested in hearing other people's arguments (supported by the text of the movie, of course) to the contrary.

Me DH : DD : DS

Yeah I wasn't sure if I believed it either, that after 10 years Will would not be the captain anymore. Who would take his place? Like it says in the movie, "The dutchman always needs a captain". I assumed the only way to change captains would be to stab the heart.

If I may pop in..Don't throw things at me The curse is broken...Thats the whole point of the after credit scene..Green flash! I have done more than my fair share of research, I moderate a POTC message board, so I know my stuff...And I have read lots of postings from the writer's website...They do like to leave things up to interpretation a lot, but the after credits make it a no doubter.

Athena: I'm not going to throw anything at you.

Btw, what POTC message board are you part of? I'm curious. I'd like to ask if anyone over at that board, or here, can substantiate the claim of a lifted curse with actual posts from Ted Elliott and Terry Rossio. I haven't yet seen anything written by Mr. Elliott and Mr. Rossio saying that the curse was broken. If you can find a Wordplayer.com post from the writers stating that the curse was lifted without a shadow of a doubt, I'd like to see it. In fact there is more evidence to the contrary than there is for a lifted/broken curse. Here's a quote from another poster over at WP and Terry's response admitting the workings of the curse are actually unclear.

>> There were many points of the plot that were not made clear. The way the curse works is a prime example of this.

Terry's response: So in a film with a high degree of plot continuity, spanning three movies, there is one story point that is unclear [meaning the curse]. Okay.

Source: http://www.wordplayer.com/forums/movies/in...cgi?read=102392



Now the Green Flash doesn't necessarily mean Will is back for good. It does signify he has returned after 10 years, but he isn't back for good. As Mr. Gibbs explained, there is a green flash when a soul crosses from one side (realm of the dead) to the other side (realm of the living).

The green flash doesn't mean that soul has crossed over permanently. In DMC for instance we don't see a green flash each time Davy Jones shows up. Davy never left for the Locker/underwold/after life. He wasn't doing his job right. As Terry Rossio explained, that is what ultimately corrupted DJ and his crew. That's why they were squidy, crusteceous, and slimy.

Now for the sake of argument, let's suppose that Will is back from the realm of the dead for good. Let's believe that the curse was broken. By what means was the curse broken? According to Terry Rossio Elizabeth's faithfulness has nothing to do with freeing Will from the Captaincy of the Flying Dutchman. Look here:

>>>The sexist accusation plays out as follows. The message to young women: girls you have to remain chaste/faithful, and true to your man no matter what. Otherwise, he'll turn into an ugly-nasty-mean-fish face monster.

Terry's Response: Ah, got it. Problem with that is that it's just plain inaccurate to the story.

We made it quite clear in the story that Jones is a fish-face because he stopped doing the job he agreed to do.

Will chooses to take on that job. He makes a deal. That deal is he has to Captain the Flying Dutchman, and perform those duties. It's only if Will chooses to abandon that job (which is what Davy Jones did) that he corrupts himself and his person.

Will could choose to abandon the job for any reason, at any time. Yes, Jones chose to abandon it over Calypso. Will does not have to (and wouldn't) make that same choice.

Source: http://www.wordplayer.com/forums/movies/index.cgi?read=98552




If we analyze the implications of a lifted/broken curse the ramifications are daunting. Remember, "The Dutchman must always have a living heart..." If the curse was lifted there are several things that need to be considered:

1. Who replaced William as CotFD? Did Will simply delegate the post? If so, why didn't he do it at the beginning of his tenure as Captain of the Flying Dutchman? Why did he wait to do this 10 years later?

2. Most importantly, what did Will's replacement have to do in order to take over the post of CotFD? Did that individual have to stab the heart? Isn't that the only way to replace the Dutchman's Captaincy? If so, doesn't that mean Will dies?

3. William is an immortal. What are the implications of his condition for Elizabeth and her son? He will live forever, they won't. Isn't that more bitter than sweet? IMHO, it is.

Me: DH: DDrincess: DS:

Me: DH: DDrincess: DS:

 

[Gurgi]

I'm sorry to say.....but that's a loy to read!

 

[mrs_leibniz@yahoo.co]

^^^ I agree, but keep in mind it is basically the contents of an entire earlier thread.










Me: DH: DDrincess: DS:

 

[JenDisneylandlver]

LOL Yeah believe it or not that is a condensed version of that thread! Basically the question is: Was the curse lifted in Pirates 3, since Elizabeth was there waiting (with son) after 10 years when Will returned? Or was he still bound to the curse and was just there for his one day visit?

 

[BillSears]

I don't know. It's like asking what's inside the case in Pulp Fiction. Since there isn't an official answer from the writers/director/producer we'll have to wait until the next movie is released and hope they explain it then.

Until it's officially up on the big screen and not on the cutting room floor or the DVD extras it's not official.

 

[mrs_leibniz@yahoo.co]

^^^ I totally agree. The Wordplayer posts shown below make me believe the writers didn't intend for the curse to be lifted/broken. Someone named Lauren asked if Will could stay on land with Elizabeth and Terry Rossio (writer or POTC trilogy), promptly responded with a resound "No."

Posted by Lauren on Wednesday, 13 June 2007, at 12:25 p.m. Hey Ted and Terry! I know y'all are busy, but if you wouldn't mind, do you think you could give us the dialogue or part of the dialogue from the scene that got cut from the movie (the one that explains that Will can stay on land with Liz). I believe that it is a happy ending and I feel that I completely understand this movie- but I would die to see that dialogue Thanks!

Originally Posted by Terry Rossio writer of POTC Terry Rossio's answer to Lauren: Posted by Terry on Wednesday, 13 June 2007, at 4:58 p.m., in response to Ted/Terry Request, posted by Lauren on Wednesday, 13 June 2007, at 12:25 p.m.

No, you have to go with what's in the film.@

Me: DH: DD: DS:

 

[Tiziminchac]

I don't know. It's like asking what's inside the case in Pulp Fiction. Since there isn't an official answer from the writers/director/producer we'll have to wait until the next movie is released and hope they explain it then.

Until it's officially up on the big screen and not on the cutting room floor or the DVD extras it's not official.

That's what Bill Murray was telling Scarlett Johansson at the end of Lost In Translation.

 

[athenna]

If you look to the writer's to explain everything word for word, don't...They have a moto-We give the audience 2+2 and let them come up with 4 on their own...And I like it that way, in this day and age w/the internet, etc, info is easy to get...I like that they want us to think...Ok back to the curse-remember I mentioned the green flashes? There are 3 in this movie 1) when Captain Jack & the rest came back to earth from DJ's locker...2) after the ''One Day'' scene and Will returned to the Dutchman-that was for the crew that is now free and ''living'' once again...3)the 3rd is in the after credits when Will comes back...He is back for good-remember after the ''One Day'' scene, he doesn't sail away back into the water- the crew can teleport, remember? We see that in DMC as well. In the after credit scene- if he isn't free, why doesn't he just teleport? Why does he sail back?

The difference btw DJ's curse and Will's is twofold -1) DJ was charges w/ferrying souls to the other side, as we know from scenes in AWE, he didn't fulfill it....2) Instead of placing his heart in the care of a faithful lover, he kept it on the FD, w/the key safely in his possession, and she betrayed him also.....Will kept his duties ferrying souls, and he picked a faithful lover who took care of his heart for him.


Wow, that was long Thats enough for this post...But I'd be happy to answer any other questions I can and I'm interested in hearing your thoughts.

 

[teacups]

Here's a thought:
Maybe the writers dont know yet!

Maybe they lurk on forums just like this to get ideas for the next Pirates. Maybe the actors do too.

JD, are you reading this?

 

[athenna]

Oh, the writers lurk on forums, this I know for a fact.

 

[teacups]

Ok, then... I must get it out there that Jack NEEDS ME!



(and if he's going to the fountain of youth, well, that needs me too. Or maybe I need it?)

 

[bumbershoot]

Ya know, DH is a writer, and even though he's not published, he wont' tell me what his stories are about before they are done. Why would the writers give any true answer that might ruin a future movie? I personally would go the opposite of what the writers say...

 

[athenna]

Tue...They would never give anything away, just assuming that IF this is a 4th, going for the Fountain of Youth angle makes only too much sense, given the last scene of Barbossa and of Captain Jack's.

 

[teacups]

We took our cells phone cameras out last night and got THE BEST screen savers for our phones!!! (is that legal? I hope so!) Anyway... did anyone notice that Jack has his mothers shrunken head around his belt in the end of the movie, when he's on the dock with the two "ladies" and Mr Gibbs? Also, the credits say the name of the boy who played "Young Will Turner" or something along those lines... went by too fast. Did anyone else see it? Is that what it said? (I took pics of the boy in the beginning and the boy in the end... still cant tell if it's the same kid!)

I hope the writers dont tell anyone anything!!! That'd ruin it for us, and you all know it, even if we are dying to know right now!

 

[mrs_leibniz@yahoo.co]

Sorry I didn't respond earlier. Having small kids is always an adventure and they do keep me busy during the summer months.

If you look to the writer's to explain everything word for word, don't...They have a moto-We give the audience 2+2 and let them come up with 4 on their own...

Except that if you look at all the POTC forums out there there are several people, myself included, who don't come up with 4. And I'm a Math teacher! LOL. The problem is that the writers didn't give us 2 + 2.

If the movie had intended to deliver a broken curse, then it would have been better to spend more time on that particular plot point instead of bombarding the audience with CGI. I can tell you that I'm not alone in believing the curse isn't broken. There are hundreds of people who walked away from AWE scratching their heads. The myriad forums, including Wordplayer, have been innundated with questions about the curse. IMHO, that says a lot. All that could have been avoided had they utilized good script writing and editing techniques.

...after the ''One Day'' scene, he doesn't sail away back into the water- the crew can teleport, remember? We see that in DMC as well. In the after credit scene- if he isn't free, why doesn't he just teleport? Why does he sail back?

In the DMC DVD commentary the writers explained that the crew of the Dutchman can teleport from one place to another. However, it isn't something they can easily do. Will doesn't teleport to shore to meet Elizabeth and her son. True. But how does that translate into a broken curse?

In DMC the crew of the Dutchman could have teleported onto The Black Pearl to recover the key Will stole from Davy, and yet they didn't. At that point Davy and his crew were still under the curse, why didn't they simply teleport to recover the key? They didn't. Instead Davy called the Kraken to do his dirty job for him.

Bottom line the fact Will doesn't magically appear on the beach doesn't necessarily mean the curse was broken. The ability to teleport, or not, is not an indicator of a lifted curse.

 

[MrsCoraPoe]

I completely agree. The Flying Dutchman's curse is not broken. There isn't anything in AWE to indicate the curse was broken. Nothing. Nada. Nope!

 

[MAKmom]

LOL Yeah believe it or not that is a condensed version of that thread! Basically the question is: Was the curse lifted in Pirates 3, since Elizabeth was there waiting (with son) after 10 years when Will returned? Or was he still bound to the curse and was just there for his one day visit?

IMO the curse is broken. The flash of green light means Will is mortal again.

 

[MAKmom]

^^^ I totally agree. The Wordplayer posts shown below make me believe the writers didn't intend for the curse to be lifted/broken. Someone named Lauren asked if Will could stay on land with Elizabeth and Terry Rossio (writer or POTC trilogy), promptly responded with a resound "No."











Me: DH: DD: DS:

I did not read it the way you took it. I read they were saying No I will not give you the dialogue. Not No he can not stay on land.

 

[athenna]

IMO the curse is broken. The flash of green light means Will is mortal again.

This is what I have been trying to say!

 

[helenabear]

IMO the curse is broken. The flash of green light means Will is mortal again.

In addition to him coming back at sunSET not sunRISE. If it were the 1 day every 10 years, why would he come back at the time he had to leave immediately again, as he only gets from sunrise to sunset (not even a full day). So I totally disagree with anyone who says there is NOTHING to point to a curse not being broken.