Is Disneys Park Ethos changing?

[paulde177jb]

Jeff I think u r getting a little aggressive & steamed up.

Just because someone opines slightly differently doesnt make their opionion any less valid.

Surely jst looking at the example of disneysea makes you thinka fast one is being pulled at WDW

 

[johare]

You compared it to Popeye, not Dueling Dragons, I never said anything about DD, whether it has a good queue or not has nothing to do with my quote.

You praised Kali for it's queue...I was simply bringing up another attraction which except for the queue is pretty much a fun, but unthemed coaster. Both may have great queues, but neither is well themed.

It doesn't have to be high-tech to be effective. Your retort damned Peter Pan, Snow White, and Small World and The Haunted Mansion (which you must also hate).

How is that? Haunted Mansion is great. Small world is a little cheesy, but a classic which we do enjoy when we go. Pooh is lame...the characters mouths don't move, their limbs don't move, in fact, they barely move. They are painted plastic/fiberglass molded crap which is one step above plywood. I guess Snow White and Peter Pan do in fact belong in that category too, though I do enjoy Peter Pan.

You obviously know nothing about AK and obviously have no appreciation for the work that went into this park ("big fake tree", what are you a robot?). No other company would have the courage and conviction to build a 'main street' devoid of merchandising, for the sake of theme. Part of the theming is in the intense landscaping which in itself it part of the theming of each park that has kept hordes of people returning to WDW time after time. From the attractions, to the walkways, to the dining areas, to even the toilets (in Conservation Station in particular), theme is everywhere.

Yep, that's why Disney had to let seasonal passholders into AK for free this summer...and why there have been newspaper articles about poor attendance at AK, but hey you know better, right? Of course AK has nice landscaping...most zoo's do. If you like the theming at AK (aka Lake Buena Vista Zoo) then you should check out the everglades...it's themed perfectly like a swamp. You could even have some fun at Sears which has done a wonderful job...the theming there makes you really feel like you are in a department store. You may think I know nothing about AK, but I've been there enough times to know that it's not worth too many repeat visits.

What a twisted analogy, Popeye is geared towards children, the rainforest theme to adults

But it was you who ridiculed Popeye and said that children wouldn't be interested and now you say it's geared towards them? And Kali which you say is themed to the rainforest is geared for adults? You certainly seem confused.

Gee, I never mentioned Jurassic Park or Spiderman (both who ARE active identifiable themes). And I never said that Suess was either, just that I didn't like the theme, myself. Throwing them into it doesn't change the FACT that Popeye is outdated and unrecognizable.

Would you mind telling us what you were refering to when you said "Just because a company throws together a bunch of 'dead' themes and decorates them well does NOT constitute a good/effective theme (park)." Sounds like you were refering to more than just Popeye...or is that really your only hangup about IOA?

You obviously have no idea what theme is. Disney themes are timeless and alive and recognizable by everyone in the world (Do you think Popeye is?), whether it is the enduring tale of Snow White or Cinderella or the popular Pooh or even Bear in the Big House.

YOU have no idea what theme is my friend for you are blinded by pixie dust. You must have been in paulde177jb's subconcious when he made that freudian slip earlier.

 

[JeffH]

I have nothing against IOA, in fact it may be the greatest park in the world for all I care, I just hate it when people slam Disney without any justification except to slant their comments so Disney 'sounds' bad ("big fake tree", well what about the big fake castle at MK?).
When I mentioned bunch, it wasn't aimed at IOA, it was in general. I've only slammed Popeye as a weak theme, and related my personal feelings about Suess, I do not slam without justification.
Now let me say it real slowly...
We were talking theming, Popeye is a kiddy theme, yet it is a dead theme compared to anything Disney does. And there are other themes at IOA that are just as unrecognizable (can we say toon lagoon?), but that doesn't say that all themes at IOA are as weak as Popeye.
Oh, and attendance has nothing to do with theming, and like MGM when it opened there isn't much to do and it generally closes by 6pm. And do you think that perhaps the overall drop in attendance throughout the industry might have something to do with the Seasonal passholder exemption? Maybe getting Seasonal Passholders to AK, might actually get a lot of them to upgrade or pay for a few days at the other parks. All I know is AK does quite well as far as attendance goes.
As for Kali theming, the original argument was your comparison of a weak old theme like Popeye to Kali's modern mature theme.
The characters may not move much in Pooh, but there are a lot of neat effects throughtout the ride. Of course, my point was that it IS effective. And I don't expect Disney to bust the bank on everything they do.
The only blind one here is you. I've criticized Disney more than you can imagine, but whenever I criticize Disney I have real justification and provide suggestions.

If anything, Disney is becoming too themed. The recent Fantasmic is theme to the nth degree. Even Rock and Roller coaster is a well themed coaster, although not in any Disney sense. And with all the character dining, you can even eat with 'theme'. The hotels are themed, even the roads are themed, maybe they should theme all the busses as well to take the edge off of all of them.

 

[johare]

We were talking theming, Popeye is a kiddy theme, yet it is a dead theme compared to anything Disney does

Splash Mountain is based on Song of the South and the Brer Bear & Rabbit characters. Do you really think more kids have seen Song of the South than have seen a Popeye cartoon?

And there are other themes at IOA that are just as unrecognizable (can we say toon lagoon?)

Why does it have to be recognizable? What's wrong with a fun, well themed 'land'. Is Frontierland based on known characters? What about Liberty Square?

The characters may not move much in Pooh, but there are a lot of neat effects throughtout the ride. Of course, my point was that it IS effective.

You're just making excuses for Disney here. What are these neat effects? Rocking a car back and forth a little? Oil running down fishing line like a lamp from the 70's? A plywood elephant blowing a smoke ring? There is no excuse for not making the characters a little more lifelike in this attraction.

 

[johare]

Johare occassionally goes into these fits (see earlier slams against my friend and objective, well-stated poster gcurling).

Fits? I was simply arguing a point with him and after he finally went to see IOA he actually agreed with a lot of what I was saying all along.

But, come on johare (maybe you ignored my pm), comments like AK simply being the Lake Buena Vista zoo really ruin a thread

Really? Is it any more acceptable to refer to IOA as a 'coaster park' or a 'six flags' as I've seen around here? btw: Sorry, I didn't see any PM from you.

also, if you read my prior comment I did say that I enjoyed Peter Pan.

 

[JeffJewell]

A theme is an story/character/idea that we can all relate to and recognize, like Snow White/Mickey/Conservation.

... I disagree with the definition of "theme" we're using, here. A character, in and of itself, is not a theme. A theme is an underlying idea or story, true, but a character is a device used to express the theme.

The Peter Pan and Snow White rides are themed in the sense that they tell a story. You do not have to have any prior knowledge of the films to "get" the story. It's A Small World is themed in the sense that it conveys the underlying idea that people are people and our differences are superficial (although you can't tell that from some of the discussion on this board). You do not need a prior knowledge of what IASW is about to "get" that message.

Dumbo is not themed, it is decorated with a recognizable character. Without a prior knowledge of the movie, there is no way to discern a meaningful story from the Dumbo ride. Yes, a lot of people _remember_ the movie's theme from seeing the Dumbo ride, but the ride itself is not themed, it relies on character recognition to recall a theme from somewhere else.

There's a pizza buffet here locally with pictures of cartoon characters on the wall. Mickey and Donald, Buzz and Woody, and so on. If characters in and of themselves are "theme," then that pizza buffet is at least as well-themed as Dumbo, and arguably _better_ themed (hey, there're more characters there, so that means more theme, eh?).

Port Orleans French Quarter/Riverside actually tells a story (arguably a better story after the name change, but that's not important right now) with it's buildings, landscapes, and of course, the Sassagoula River. The All-Stars are decorated with giant icons, not themed. Any story or idea brought to mind by those icons is a memory triggered through character recognition, not a theme expressed by the icon.

If a company makes a cheap plastic coffee mug, everyone can see it's a cheap plastic coffee mug. If that same company makes a cheap plastic coffee mug and screens on an image of Mickey, is the cheap coffee mug suddenly Magic? Or is it a cheap plastic coffee mug that _reminds_ you of something Magic?

I don't intend to get into the IOA/Disney thing at all, I just wanted to clear up the mistaken use of the term "theme." The mistaken use doesn't happen only here, I believe Disney management is now convinced that "character" equals "theme," and I believe that mistake is leading to less Magical rides.

It is my opinion that Disney's recent projects tend to use character recognition in place of real theming far too often, and that this trend will bite them in the future.

Jeff

 

[Channel1tv]

And do you think that perhaps the overall drop in attendance throughout the industry might have something to do with the Seasonal passholder exemption? Maybe getting Seasonal Passholders to AK, might actually get a lot of them to upgrade or pay for a few days at the other parks. All I know is AK does quite well as far as attendance goes.

Actually Jeff, low attendance the Very reason that season pass holders have access to AK...

 

[HorizonsFan]

Surely jst looking at the example of disneysea makes you thinka fast one is being pulled at WDW

If DisneySeas was being financed by WDC, you might have a valid analogy. WDC has to spend money for attractions at WDW; budget is a concern. OLC spends money for attractions at DisneySeas; budget is not as much of a factor.

 

[tiggerstheman1]

Other stories have confirmed that budgets ARE a concern at OLC and it's not the "visionary" company in Walt's image that everyone would have to believe.

My opinion is that what we see in DisneySeas is an example of Disney using OLC's money to advance it's reputation. How? Well, they get to hold OLC's feet to the fire on maintaining the "Disney" standard, then they get to build an incredible park that everyone attributes to Disney while not writing the check for it. So Disney's reputation grows even more while draining somebody else's wallet.

I think the suits may be figuring that they don't need the income from the park but that the increase in Disney's reputation will translate into more movie tickets sold, visits from Japan to the "classic" Disney, more plushies sold, etc.

Just my opinion.

 

[HorizonsFan]

Other stories have confirmed that budgets ARE a concern at OLC

You are correct. They just aren't Disney's main concern, they are the concern of OLC.
My point is that you can't point to DisneySeas and say, "They got it so WDW should too!"
WDC spends the money for WDW. OLC spends the money for DisneySeas.
"Why does Disney want to do it this way?" is a whole 'nother discussion...

 

[tiggerstheman1]

<QUOTE>My point is that you can't point to DisneySeas and say, "They got it so WDW should too!" WDC spends the money for WDW. OLC spends the money for DisneySeas. </QUOTE>

I agree. I thought you were making the point that OLC isn't concerned about budgets and expenses (like other threads have discussed).

It seems that Disney management is doing to themselves what they used to do with Actors and Directors in the past; that is to squeeze every last cent of concessions to make a lot of inexpensive films. Now they burn through $200M on P.H. for a flop in the film world, and seem to have lost the ability to innovate for their own 100%-owned interests. Mission:Space may be a counter example - looks like it might - but one ride does not a trend make. Looking at other rides, the trend, at least in the Disney-owned parks, that the core compentancy of WDI is just as Paul Pressler stated "painters and plasterers". That seems to be more in line with what they have been doing lately - taking someone elses ride and doing a paint and plaster on the queue.

Maybe the real WDI is becoming the Swiss Army of long ago -- nothing but mercenaries who will design a great park for someone else? Does someone at Disney think that WDI should be nothing more than consultants who occasionally happen to work on a Disney project?

 

[JeffJewell]

Mission:Space may be a counter example - looks like it might - but one ride does not a trend make. Looking at other rides, the trend, at least in the Disney-owned parks, that the core compentancy of WDI is just as Paul Pressler stated "painters and plasterers". That seems to be more in line with what they have been doing lately - taking someone elses ride and doing a paint and plaster on the queue.

...what we know about Mission:SPACE so far suggests the opposite: that the ride might be a perfect example of the new thinking.

The original concept for Mission:SPACE was that the pavilion was to be a "real" trip into space. The pre-show would have involved preparing for space travel and there would be interactive areas after the ride themed as the destination. A complete experience, in the old style Disney tradition.

Unfortunately, once Disney got the check from Compaq, they found it would cover the cost of the high-capacity version of the military-grade g-force training simulator, but not much else. Rumors suggest that the pre- and post-ride attractions have been drastically cut; perhaps removed entirely. The "theme" of the ride has changed from "trip to outer space" to "ride a g-force trainer simulation," which, in ten words or less, is precisely the reality of the situation.

At the moment, it appears that the Imagineers got to build the big red ball out front. And that may be it.

Jeff

PS - although I admit the tone was negative here, I did try to steer clear of "bashing" Mission:SPACE before we've seen it. I tried to stick to reporting well-known rumors, rather than editorializing.

 

[tiggerstheman1]

<QUOTE>The "theme" of the ride has changed from "trip to outer space" to "ride a g-force trainer simulation," which, in ten words or less, is precisely the reality of the situation. </QUOTE>

Here's me hoping.....

1) I hope that WDI ties in some kind of ride film so it's not basically a high-tech version of the Vomit Comet where they close the doors, you get the G-Force and then float for a second before you hurl.

2) I'm really interested in experiencing the weightlessness aspect of the attraction so I'm hoping they are able to pull it off well.

3) I'm hoping that WDI puts it's spin on the hardware.

.... end of hope

Seriously, the fact that it's a G-Force simulator doesn't bother me. I can't go down to South of the Border and get on the exact same thing (I can now get on a Mad Mouse coaster where the cars have big Pedro faces on them). I don't expect WDI to come up with all new hardware for each ride - after all, they didn't invent the boat to build Pirates.

SIZE=1]For those who have never traveled I-95 between Lumberton, NC and Florence SC: South of the Border is a giant roadside tourist trap of the worst kind - Big Sombrero tower (with elevator) and a bunch of junk shops. [/SIZE]

Now back to our regularly scheduled program...


<QUOTE> At the moment, it appears that the Imagineers got to build the big red ball out front. And that may be it. </QUOTE>

I wonder if on top it has a little triangle window so guests can ask it questions? It IS a red Magic 8-Ball!!! Now I get it!

 

[paulde177jb]

Simply put, I dont believe that WDW offers as much value money as it did in, say 94 or 98 when I visited previously.

Entrance prices, food etc have rocketed in price. However, the attractions havent kept pace.

Im not saying Disney should do a IoA copy for 1 minute. Disney isnt in that business. Disney is about, IMHO a family experience for all ages. However, that doesnt mean they can just throw in midway rides (isnt Aladdin just an excuse for more themed shops?)

I think maybe the problem is that AK was rushed, cuts were made. They wanted something to do battle with IoA, as a NEW park, not a direct competitor, & a way of keeping guests there rather than going off to BG for the day.

I loved Horizons. OK it was dated but it was an experience for the whole family. I fear Mission will be for thrill seekers only.

When you boarded a WDW ride you really appreciated the thought that had gone into the attraction. You felt as if real care had been taken to get it just right. It was gonna be there for years so get the ride right. Now there seems to be fudging going on. Reducing hours on rides, closing parks earlier etc etc.

What has improved in the last 10 years? Well certainly the catering has improved but toi my mind not much else. It seems you eeither get midway rides or "Ride the Jungle, go upside downb at 70 miles an hour, feel 4 Gs like a fighter pilot". Or maybe "The Living Sea - go on a submarine where the atomic reactor goes into meltdown, experience a a sub crash, shark attack, the bends..." .They seem to be following trends now rather than setting the standard. I still live in hope that Disney doesnt just go for extrmemes and still amkes it a family experience of quality.

 

[johare]

Just look at some of the most recent attractions at each of the parks...Alien Encounter at MK, JIYI at Epcot, R&R Coaster at the Studios and Dinosaur at the Lake Buena Vista Zoo. I guess Disney figures that if they just turn out the lights and leave everyone in the dark 90% of the time instead of going thru the effort the properly theme the attractions. Guess they're too busy building hotels, souvenier shops and thousands of ridiculous pins to really care anymore.

 

[johare]

thedscoop,

Who said I hate Disney? I don't dislike Disney at all, I'm just disappointed in the garbage they are pushing off on people lately and wish they would turn themselves around. I think most of what they've done over the past few years has been total crap...especially Animal Kingdom. I also finally saw Atlantis the other day and am glad I downloaded it and didn't waste my money going to see it because we were really disappointed in it.

I guess you might say I hate what Disney is doing lately, however I still love the Magic Kingdom, Epcot and even parts of MGM. If DisneySea were built here I doubt you would see a complaint from me regarding it. Do you expect everyone who posts to be a brainwashed Disney zombie who blindly sings the praises of everything Disney does?

Anyway, if you don't like my comments then take your own advice and don't read them and especially don't waste your time replying to them anymore. DUH!

 

[DisDuck]

So the fact that my family likes AK (it is NOT A ZOO) means we are brainwashed zombies. Certainly only your opinion counts and those who like AK don't.

 

[DanG]

Scoop, your post seems to suggest that if someone wants to be critical of Disney, they must not like Disney and should not participate in the community. This is unfair.

One can appreciate and care for much of what is Disney and not like very much what they have seen the last five years. For many the core of Disney are the themeparks and movies and they see other companies passing Disney by in these core businesses. It would be fair to say that Disney has lost its focus on these businesses and can be seen as milking the themeparks without making cash investments appropriate for the size and type of business they are in.

More frustrating for me are the people who will defend every mover Disney makes just because they are Disney- the illusion of Disney infallibility. Disney has more of these lapdogs than any company I've ever seen. But its a testament to the passion stoked by those core businesses.

Some might suggest that the critics care more because they see Disney slowly deteriorating and losing that magic. I am in that group.

It is a fair criticism though to say that we all get fairly well off topic here on the Romors and News board.

But I could be wrong.

DanG

 

[johare]

DisDuck,

Absolutely not. Just liking AK does not make you or your family brainwashed. There are plenty of people who do like AK and there is nothing wrong with that. I happen to be one of those who do not care for AK and in my opinion it's not much more than a fancy zoo. Both opinions are valid and should be respected, however some people get very defensive and almost take it as a personal attack if anything Disney is criticized...to me those are the brainwashed ones.

 

[DanG]

I just become sensitive when I perceive that someone dismisses criticisms as unwelcome.
Anyway, I was jumping into a "discussion" that didn't involve me.

This Board has been great for stoking strong, well-articulated appraisals of Disney's decisionmaking that I've not seen elsewhere. I just hope that everyone keeps up the lively discussion.

DanG