Is Disneys Park Ethos changing?

[paulde177jb]

May I start a debate?

First off Ive been to WDW a few times now - a long way from England by plane! And I love the place - albeit with a few reservations. I reckon that there has been a change in the way the parks operate. When I 1st visited, it seemed there was a synergy between the parks, hotels, the whole shebang. I think that has changed. WDW seems to have been hived off into budget groups with their own profit margins that dont always work towards the same goal.

You would not believe the pre-advertising that took place in the uK for the AK. I visited within 8 weeks of its opening. IMHO the park was half baked, very few rides, far too many peole/crowded so that you couldnt stop to take in all the minutae people supporting AK mention in the boards. MY party was very disappointed.

Wen went back when Kali etc was opened. It still didnt amount to much.

Disney would point to how MGM et all grew since opening with new rides etc from humble beginnings. That wont wash. Theyve built so many hotel rooms on site they havent kept the attractions in line with the visitor numbers.

This was proved by IoA. Im no coaster nut - but I have to admit when it opened it was a virtually complete, rounded park. All the themeing, well laid out, millions spent on rides & universal will reap the benefits from a hard start. As I said, I dont like coasters, but Poseidon, Cat in the Hat, Spiderman, JP all showed Disney a very hard lesson.Build a complete park & see the WOW factor in visitors from day 1.

I wiull be off to Orlando for my annual visit in December, & Disney worry me. Mission:Space is years off. Other attractions are either cheap midway rides or off the shelf coasters (RnR).

I used to go to Disney because it offered something else to a funfair. Their rides told stories, immersed the whole family in a story. They really need to get back to that & quick.

So what is my solution?

1. On site transportation. Forget the busses. Whwen they built AK they shouldve put the Monorail/light rail link to MGM/EPCOT in then as part of the AK cost. They cant charge extra for it. They can save $millions in bus costs & drivers & fuel. You already pay $$$ to park there - its supposed to be part of Walts idea/vision.

2. Sort out the 20k lagoon. Build Atlantis or whatever. Not a hair-raiser of a coaster for mad teenagers only - a truly thrilling ride for all the family. Whether ytou are 8 or 80 you can go on it. And why not Herbie in MK? A Herbie car ride would be great

3. Leave the Movie Ride alone. Its got years life left - just update a couple of the parts of it.
MGM needs little done to it. Dont put the Disneyland Indy car ride clone in - all the parks just become the same then.

4 Do Beastly Kingdon at AK. But not just coasters p-lease!

5. EPCOT> well weve got Mission coming so I think thatll be all thank you. Id like Figment back, but please JIYI open until Mission is open. You cant close any more in futureworld.

6. Downtown Disney. Whenever I go there there are big queues in the restaurants. Sign of too many people perhaps? I really think it needs a couple more.

7. Water Parks. I dont use so I cant comment here.
I know this all costs lots of dosh but just think - DIsney is spending $$$ hand over fist & WDW is subsidising it all. If its not careful, the jewel in the crown could fade quickly with disgruntled guests. I want to still be visiting in 15 years time. Lets hope the management get onto this.
Sorry for my rambling.

Ill now sit back & wait for the opposite views!

 

[swinginevilmike]

No opposing view here...I like your suggestions

 

[DC7800]

This may not be much of a debate, because I agree with most everything you said (and I'm certain many others will also).

I may be in the minority, but I don't mind the bus transportation. I have to figure it beats the hassle of driving (from hotel room: walk to car, drive to theme park, short walk to end of row, crowd onto parking tram for ride to main entrance, walk to main gate - reverse the process to leave). Now don't get me wrong - I LOVE the monorail (I take monorail rides just for fun, sometimes), and really want it expanded to all parks (including the water parks) and at least the major resort areas. In the meantime, I'll take the bus over the car.

I hadn't though about it, but you are right that JIYI shouldn't really be closed at the same time as Horizons/Mission:Space. Besides, if they rush the rehab of Figment's JII by next summer, it might be another disappointment. I'd rather wait for a quality attraction, though JIYI is bad enough I'm also anxious to be rid of it...

I also agree the GMR should not be gutted (I took really extensive video last week, just in case), and the 20,000 lagoon should not be permitted to sit empty any longer. This is prime real estate. In the "real world", the monetary loss from letting this "property" sit undeveloped would look ludicrous.

Downtown Disney is one of my favorite places in WDW (Okay, I still call it the "village"). Much as I enjoy the West Side and PI, I'd like to see the original Marketplace expanded with more shops, restaurants, amd entertainment (probably have to grow into the parking lot; maybe along the front of PI?). Could Disney be on the same line of thought here?: A large parking lot section is walled off along with Sir Edwards Haberdasher (being demolished for expansion, so a CM said. Anyone know anything???). Come to think of it, build an above-ground monorial station and you can use the bus areas for shops. Such growth would disperse crowds over a wider area, making the place seem less crowded than it really is.

Looks like I rambled too...

 

[roymccoy]

Don't go to California Adventure, then Paul! You'll have a heart-attack! Talk about wide-open spaces and
off the shelf rides. The worst of WDW is still better then the best of DCA.

Roy

 

[DisDuck]

By the way, every ride in WDW and DL that was not built completely from scratch, and I mean the tracks, motors & cars carry the label Made By Disney Corporation (ie. Disney has factories and machines shops that built electric motors, ride mechanisms, etc) is OFF-THE-SHELF.

Could we please lose that term. It is only used in a derisive manner to put down Disney. Does anyone think that IOA was built without off-the-shelf. That Universal has the machine shops building ride mechanisms.

Criticize the themeing if you want of a particular ride, criticize the type of ride but not that Disney contracted out the actual fabrication of the mechanism. There are companies out there that have alot more experience and are better at building the mechanics than Disney.

As for AK, I have never spent less than 3/4 of a day at the park each of the 4 times I have been there. I go 'slow' thru the park as I believe it was designed to be done. Leisurely pace not commando.

 

[Sarangel]

Well, Here goes...

1. On site transportation. Forget the busses. Whwen they built AK they shouldve put the Monorail/light rail link to MGM/EPCOT in then as part of the AK cost. They cant charge extra for it. They can save $millions in bus costs & drivers & fuel. You already pay $$$ to park there - its supposed to be part of Walts idea/vision.

They actually looked into this, but the cost of all those drivers, gas, busses, etc. was *much* less than the cost of designing and building a monorail or light rail system. I don't mind the busses either, though they're nowhere near as romantic as the boats or the monorail. I would mind even less if they took some of that money they saved & spent it on new attractions & rides.

2. Sort out the 20k lagoon. Build Atlantis or whatever. Not a hair-raiser of a coaster for mad teenagers only - a truly thrilling ride for all the family. Whether ytou are 8 or 80 you can go on it. And why not Herbie in MK? A Herbie car ride would be great

I believe they are working on both a lagoon ride and Beastly Kingdom, but these things take time. Wouldn't you rather they took the time to do it right than just dashed off something to fill the space. I'm less sure about Herbie, but that's a personal bias... My parents took me when I was 4 or 5 & I had nightmares for weeks afterwards about our car taking off with me (and not my parents) in it.

I suspect that most of us here on the Rumors & News board are in favor of having Disney improve the parks, the problem being that (with a few exceptions) we don't work for Disney & even those of us who do aren't in a position to make these things happen.

Sarangel

 

[johare]

Off-the-Shelf is a perfectly acceptable term to describe generic unimaginative attractions. DisDucks definition of off-the-shelf is ridiculous. A company doesn't have to manufacture every little part of an attraction in order for it to not be considered 'off-the-shelf'. Where would you stop? Do they need to make all the nuts and bolts internally too? Should they mine their own steel and chop down trees for the wood? Would you call a ride like Spiderman 'off-the-shelf' simply because they bought the motors and lightbulbs pre-made?!?

Maybe we should call them 'GENERIC' attractions instead though?

 

[Another Voice]

“Off the shelf” does not have anything to do with the components and has everything to do with the design of the ride. “Off the shelf” are rides that are purchased already designed from the manufacture – ‘Mullholland Madness’, ‘Aladdin’, ‘Maliboomer’, ‘Jumping Jellyfish’, everything in Din-O-Rama, etc., etc., etc. “Off the shelf” means a ride I can experience other places.

Putting fiberglass coverings on the ride vehicles to make them look like carpets or sticking highway signs beside the track is an example of “decoration” – not “themeing”. A theme element is something that enhances or advances a storyline, decoration just makes something look nice. ‘Splash Mountain’ has an off-the-shelf ride system, but the attraction itself has a storyline that is supported both by the show and by the ride elements. That makes the attraction unique and more than just a flume ride. ‘Grizzly Rapids’ is another off-the-shelf ride system, but it has no storyline and no show elements. It’s decorated with rocks and trees, but the basic experience is no different then the seven hundred other rapids ride in the country.

And yes, “off the shelf” is meant to be a negative term when applied to Disney. I expect more from them than a county fair midway.


P.S. As for the ‘Herbie’ ride, that one goes back to the seventies. Another remake of ‘The Love Bug’ is in the works. If it’s a huge hit I won’t be surprised if the plans get dusted off again.

 

[DisDuck]

Thanks thedscoop. This 'off-the-shelf' argument is not new just to some who post here. DVC may have been the first to use it and in 'his' definition - it is a ride not designed from the ground up by Disney. I take the same tack as you the mechanism is not important it is what they do to it in regards to themeing that is more important.

Now some of the 'newer' rides mentioned here may have 'lame' themeing but that is subjective. You see I think that except for Spiderman there is some 'lame' themeing at IOA, in particular Dudley. Yet others think IOA has done what Disney should be doing.

This has been my 'theme' from the very beginning of these various Disney going to pot debates. I believe what 'we' see/get out of Disney is purely subjective. AV does not like things that I do. Is he right and I wrong or is it that as different individuals with different tastes we view the same thing differently. Maintenance is objective, a place is clean or it is not clean, etc. but like/dislike of a ride is subjective. Since I don't like most coasters I think a park with a majority of coasters (particularly 'stomach renching' ones) is a 'bad' park.

This is why I and my daughter like AK so much, it has its rides but also its beauty and serenity which is best enjoyed at a leisurely pace. That is why it is a 'full' day for us. IOA is a 1/2 day for us.

 

[johare]

Ok, from now on instead of 'off the shelf rides', I will use the term 'cheap generic attractions' to refer to the crap Disney is coming up with lately.

As far as theming goes, if you consider the theming at 'IOA' to be lame then I would consider the RECENT theming at Disney to be pathetic. Popeye is themed FAR better than Kali River Rapids, Cat in the Hat is themed far better than Pooh and even a 'cheap generic' attraction like One Fish Two Fish has better theming than Aladdin.

 

[DisDuck]

Since I consider some of the themeing at IOA lame, you consider Disney pathetic then Universal Studios must be putrid.

 

[space42]

'cheap generic attractions' hehehe, thats funny


I dunno, I wasn't that impressed with IOA either. They do have some nice rides like Spiderman. I also LOVED Popeye! I think that is the best raft ride I have ever been on. And the theming was wonderful.
But the theming of the coasters stopped once you left the cue. I thought the cue of Dueling Dragons was AMAZING, but once you got on the ride the theme ended. It would have been great if they could have extended the theme into the ride like Disney has done in the past. Like put the coaster in a show building. Or built them into a mountain/hill of some sort.

But back to off the shelf ....errrr... 'cheap generic attractions'
I just wish Disney would build another attraction on the scope of Splash Mountain! That was the last great Disney attraction in the US IMHO.
They just dont seem to want to build those type of attractions anymore.
Lets hope that the rumor about BK is true. From the Paul Pressler interview it does seem to be!


On another note... Part of the 'problem' is the spread of rumors on the internet. I'm sure there have been tons of great attractions on the drawing board that have been scrapped for whatever reason. Now, we just hear about them more than we would have in the past. If we never knew about Fire Mountain and Beastly Kingdom etc.. then we would never had expected Disney to build them. But we now hear about all of these great attractions that never get built while we watch them installing 'cheap generic attractions'. It would probably be better if we never knew about them.
We just expect more from Disney.
I say "we" because it seems that most people here feel the same way.

 

[tiggerstheman1]

Johare said:

Popeye is themed FAR better than Kali River Rapids, Cat in the Hat is themed far better than Pooh and even a 'cheap generic' attraction like One Fish Two Fish has better theming than Aladdin.

I'll have to take exception with 2/3 of this one. While the ride on Popeye is better - MUCH WETTER - I found no story to tell and I think that's the heart of a themed attraction. Decoration is only part of it. However, if I'm judging raft ride to raft ride, I'll tip my hand toward Popeye because the whitewater is rougher and fits the size of the raft better.

I personally think Cat in the Hat is atrocious. A bunch of painted walls. All the air ducts and roof trusses were in plain view. I never felt part of the story rather I was just looking at some prop walls. Pooh, is about the same but I think there is more depth to the sets and the distractions are fewer. In a dark ride, it is all about the story. While CITH is one of my personal Suess favorites, they just missed on it. The queue didn't capture me and the ride left me feeling flat.

The best dark ride at IOA is Spidey (I don't think there's any arguement). It wraps you into the story. Even if you take out the technology of the 3d and made it a traditional, simple dark ride, the themeing captures you.


One Fish vs Alladdin -- toss up to me. Don't care for either one, although my wife loves the spinners.

 

[JeffH]

..."then I would consider the RECENT theming at Disney to be pathetic. Popeye is themed FAR better than Kali River Rapids, Cat in the Hat is themed far better than Pooh and even a 'cheap generic' attraction like One Fish Two Fish has better theming than Aladdin."

I think the problem is that we don't know what theming is.
A theme is an story/character/idea that we can all relate to and recognize, like Snow White/Mickey/Conservation.
Kali is beautifully done, the queue line itself is better than most attractions at other parks, the only thing it lacks is that it could have been longer (and the burnt out section is depressing), and to compare it's 'theming' to something like Popeye is absurd. The theming of Kali deals with saving the rainforests, which is part of the grand theme of the whole park (a very contempory and popular theme), while Popeye is based on a cartoon that hasn't been made in over 40 years and who's only recent reference was a horrible movie. Pooh is 100% Pooh which is as full as a theme as you can get, movies (old and new), several TV shows (old and new especially the excellent Book of Pooh), many CD-ROMs and characters in the park. Aladdin overlooks Agrabah and generally has Genie, Jasmine, and Aladdin giving autographs nearby. Along with the movies, TV, Tiki Room, and characters theming is high here, as well. As far as RECECT theming at Disney goes, AK itself represents the grandest theming ever done in the world. The research and the detail that went into this park would make Walt proud. I only hope they continue the theme as it grows (unlike what they did in Future World with Test Track).
As far as the ride 'quality/originality' goes, I see no problem with Disney adding a few "B", "C" and "D" attractions after several decades of only adding "D" and "E" attractions everywhere. When the (some say golden days) MK first opened, besides being a rip-off of Disneyland (0% creativity), it was filled with 'off-the-shelf' simple attractions, with very few "E"attractions and many "A", "B", "C" and "D" attractions. Most rides were simple car (or sub) on a track surrounded by theme. Where is this Disney designed stuff anyway, Flight to the Moon? Animatronics were the big Disney creation, otherwise they simply built buildings with a ride through a 'dark' area decorated with theme.
Theme is why we return over and over again. The themes that are created and reinforced and kept alive/vital by the movies (and sequels), the TV shows, the videos, the CD-Roms, the merchandise, the character interaction.

Just because a company throws together a bunch of 'dead' themes and decorates them well does NOT constitute a good/effective theme (park). I never liked Seuss much (there are enough REAL things to read about to our children without messing their minds up with made up crap), and the big association for kids is the Grinch who stole Christmas (kids just love that!). Popeye is a great theme...eat spinach and beat up the bad guy over and over again. I can just hear it the kids all screaming "We want to go play with Popeye", wait, no they are saying "Who in the hell is Popeye?"

Theme, thy name is Disney.

 

[johare]

thescoop,

Now regarding "cheap generic attractions", does the ride mechanism for space, splash, and big thunder fall within this category

Were are talking about ATTRACTIONS, not RIDE MECHANISMS. I guess you just enjoy twisting words to make them fit the reply you intend on posting. I guess the fact that you think Splash and Space Mtn have 'cheap generic ride mechanisms' show just how little you know about this subject.

 

[johare]

Kali is beautifully done, the queue line itself is better than most attractions at other parks

Same has been said for Dueling Dragons queue...in fact most probably find it better than Kali.

Pooh is 100% Pooh which is as full as a theme as you can get

Yep, a bunch of 'non-animated' animatronic characters and painted plywood really get us into the theme.

AK itself represents the grandest theming ever done in the world

Sure you haven't OD'ed on pixie dust on this one? AK is nice, but it's theming required very little imagination. It's a heck of a nice zoo with some fancy buildings here and there and a big fake tree in the middle.

I can just hear it the kids all screaming "We want to go play with Popeye"

Right...and I can hear all the kids screaming "We want to go play in the rainforest, we want to go play in the rainforest"

Theme, thy name is Disney.

NOT! It's funny how you think "a theme is an story/character/idea that we can all relate to and recognize, like Snow White/Mickey/Conservation", yet you find characters like Popeye, Spiderman, Jurassic Park, Suess, etc... to be outdated and unrecognizable.

 

[johare]

Great attractions can arise out of generic, simple, or otherwise unoriginal ride mechanisms. So, let's wait to judge any attraction until the theming is completed!

I don't disagree with this at all. "Cheap Generic Attractions" is a term I decided to use instead of "OFF THE SHELF" which for some reason seems to bother some people...

Now, I know its tempting to wonder how "DinoRama" could ever be themed to the point of becoming a strong attraction. But, I'm confident Imagineering has done more with less.

I don't know what in recent 'Disney history' has given you this confidence, but fine...I'll wait and see what they come up with. However, Aladdin is completed and it IS in my opinion a cheap generic attraction.

Still hope you join us....just leave the weapons at su casa por favor!

I'm not angry and I'm definately not violent. Looks like your twisting words/implying things again...

 

[paulde177jb]

I think my point has been getting a little sidetracked.
When I said about Disney buying off the shelf rides, I know they order them to a specification form builders, what I mean is that they havent really pushed the barriers back in rides for a few years now, have they? Look at what theyve doen at Disneysea. Original ideas/rides immersing you in an experience. WDW - you get Pooh & Buzz, cardboard cutouts. Yes Buzz & pooh are great fun. But remember the rides that have been closed down & these have just reused the ride mechanism as a cheap replacement.

Also the point was theyve pumped up the attendance levels so much - yet done little to enhance the worlds rides. Id like to see WDW's daily profit line. The Imagineers have had a hard time of it - forget the attractions & build another hotel. I actually think this is hurting the area.

Yes Disney dopes have its pixie dust it can sprinkle, but Im not blinkered & I feel that Universal deserves real praise for IoA.

By the way, my friend has just returned (49 with teenage boys) from their 1st time in Orlando. They all agreed (& the wife doesnt like coasters) that USF/IoA was much better than Disney. It was well thouht out, fab rides - a true experience. In fact, they thought MK was overcrowded & overrated.

Please dont be blinded to anything just because it isnt Disney

 

[johare]

Freudian slip of the day:

Yes Disney dopes have its pixie dust it can sprinkle

 

[JeffH]

quote:
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Kali is beautifully done, the queue line itself is better than most attractions at other parks
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Twisted retort:
Same has been said for Dueling Dragons queue...in fact most probably find it better than Kali.
My response:
You compared it to Popeye, not Dueling Dragons, I never said anything about DD, whether it has a good queue or not has nothing to do with my quote.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pooh is 100% Pooh which is as full as a theme as you can get
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Twisted retort:
Yep, a bunch of 'non-animated' animatronic characters and painted plywood really get us into the theme.
My response:
It doesn't have to be high-tech to be effective. Your retort damned Peter Pan, Snow White, and Small World and The Haunted Mansion (which you must also hate).

quote:
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AK itself represents the grandest theming ever done in the world
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Twisted retort:
Sure you haven't OD'ed on pixie dust on this one? AK is nice, but it's theming required very little imagination. It's a heck of a nice zoo with some fancy buildings here and there and a big fake tree in the middle.
My response:
You obviously know nothing about AK and obviously have no appreciation for the work that went into this park ("big fake tree", what are you a robot?). No other company would have the courage and conviction to build a 'main street' devoid of merchandising, for the sake of theme. Part of the theming is in the intense landscaping which in itself it part of the theming of each park that has kept hordes of people returning to WDW time after time. From the attractions, to the walkways, to the dining areas, to even the toilets (in Conservation Station in particular), theme is everywhere.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can just hear it the kids all screaming "We want to go play with Popeye"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Twisted retort:
Right...and I can hear all the kids screaming "We want to go play in the rainforest, we want to go play in the rainforest"
My response:
What a twisted analogy, Popeye is geared towards children, the rainforest theme to adults

quote:
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Theme, thy name is Disney.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Twisted retort:
NOT! It's funny how you think "a theme is an story/character/idea that we can all relate to and recognize, like Snow White/Mickey/Conservation", yet you find characters like Popeye, Spiderman, Jurassic Park, Suess, etc... to be outdated and unrecognizable.
My response:
Gee, I never mentioned Jurassic Park or Spiderman (both who ARE active identifiable themes). And I never said that Suess was either, just that I didn't like the theme, myself. Throwing them into it doesn't change the FACT that Popeye is outdated and unrecognizable.
You obviously have no idea what theme is. Disney themes are timeless and alive and recognizable by everyone in the world (Do you think Popeye is?), whether it is the enduring tale of Snow White or Cinderella or the popular Pooh or even Bear in the Big House.