Idiotic judgment against honor student

[badblackpug]

That is the situation that truancy laws were designed to address... students who are doing poorly with poor attendance would presumably do better if they attended regularly. The school can't teach them if they aren't there, but the school is responsible for making sure that they get educated. So truancy laws give the school the power to make sure those kids at least attend.

But if this girl is an honor student, doing well despite extensive absences.... what is the point of making sure she is in her chair in the classroom, snoozing no doubt because she worked till all hours the night before? She is making the best use she can of her chance to get an education. She is succeeding, not failing.

There is no reason to take extreme steps in a case of truancy where the student is not doing badly in school.

Okay. I have 2 kids in school. My daughter gets good grades, As and Bs, but she works very, very hard for each grade. My son he gets straight As with very minimal effort. In this case should I just allow my son to attend school when he feels like it, while ensuring that my daughter is there every single day possible?

They are both good kids, one just picks things up faster than the other. Why should one be exempt from the rules? Should we tell the other students in this school, "This girl is smarter than you, the rules don't apply to her?"

It may sound harsh, but this girl has choices if she can't or won't abide by the rules of the school. She can choose to drop out and get a GED. She can choose not to support one or both of her siblings. None of these are easy choices, but they are choices.

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

She has been in court before for this. It is, apparently, an ongoing problem. We don't know what steps were taken leading up to this. I am sure there were multiple disciplinary actions leading up to this sentence. I think it is a slippery slope when you start making exceptions. Who is to say whose circumstances are more difficult or more important than another's?

In all honesty, med schools will not be impressed with her absenteeism, even if she weren't disciplined for it. Her circumstances aren't likely to change. If she can't balance high school and her personal issues, I am sure she won't be able to handle pre-med/med school. It is much more demanding.

...and to throw this out there...

Would everyone be so outraged if she were a poor student? What if she were only eking by with Cs and Ds?

There are kids all over the country who are in bad situations. Who work full time, whose parents are absent, who live in homeless shelters, who are parents themselves. A lot of them manage to get to school if they really want to. In the dark ages I went to school with a boy whose parents abandoned him and his siblings. He worked full time, and in our senior year his house burned down leaving him homeless. He stayed in school, he graduated, and, actually, we went to the same college. It wasn't easy.

I do think that if her parents are still legally responsible for her they need to be found and held to that responsibility.

Are you actually trying to suggest that this kid doesn't want to get to school? This kid sounds exactly like the boy you referenced above.

Slippery slope arguments are bunk fallacies. They're the arguments that earn failing grades in my class. As for the "poor" student, if the kid wants an education, then yes, the kid deserves the services and supports necessary for the kid to get his education, not jail time. Sorting out the circumstances behind the parties' actions is your job as a judge. And if the judge or school can't figure out the difference between a kid who wants to go to school versus the kid who doesn't give a damn about school, then the judge and school are failing at their jobs.

Again, by his own words, this judge is concerned about the way HE looks, not what is just in the case.

 

[Coconut36]

Are you actually trying to suggest that this kid doesn't want to get to school? This kid sounds exactly like the boy you referenced above.

Slippery slope arguments are bunk fallacies. They're the arguments that earn failing grades in my class. As for the "poor" student, if the kid wants an education, then yes, the kid deserves the services and supports necessary for the kid to get his education, not jail time. Sorting out the circumstances behind the parties' actions is your job as a judge. And if the judge or school can't figure out the difference between a kid who wants to go to school versus the kid who doesn't give a damn about school, then the judge and school are failing at their jobs.

Again, by his own words, this judge is concerned about the way HE looks, not what is just in the case.

If she wanted to get to school she would. At her age she knows attendance is important. She also knows that legal action can be taken against her for being truant (as she was brought into court over it already). She is making the choice to miss classes/show up late and she missed the last time knowing full well there were legal consequences as a result of doing it. By necessity work appears to be her primary focus right now.

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

Okay. I have 2 kids in school. My daughter gets good grades, As and Bs, but she works very, very hard for each grade. My son he gets straight As with very minimal effort. In this case should I just allow my son to attend school when he feels like it, while ensuring that my daughter is there every single day possible?

They are both good kids, one just picks things up faster than the other. Why should one be exempt from the rules? Should we tell the other students in this school, "This girl is smarter than you, the rules don't apply to her?"

It may sound harsh, but this girl has choices if she can't or won't abide by the rules of the school. She can choose to drop out and get a GED. She can choose not to support one or both of her siblings. None of these are easy choices, but they are choices.

First, you've given a false analogy. Your son wouldn't have an explanation or reason for his absences other than, "Meh, didn't feel like it."

Second, are you actually, honestly saying that given the choice between getting to the root of the problem and getting this girl some support OR throwing her in jail, throwing her in jail is the RIGHT decision?

Do you not see that criminal justice is all about discretion and treating each case individually as it comes? Really?

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

If she wanted to get to school she would. At her age she knows attendance is important. She also knows that legal action can be taken against her for being truant (as she was brought into court over it already). She is making the choice to miss classes/show up late and she missed the last time knowing full well there were legal consequences as a result of doing it. By necessity work appears to be her primary focus right now.

I hope you never have to walk a mile in her shoes. Your compassion is breathtaking.

ETA: when is the last time you chose to oversleep? Because oversleeping is always a conscious decision.

 

[Northstar]

If she wanted to get to school she would. At her age she knows attendance is important. She also knows that legal action can be taken against her for being truant (as she was brought into court over it already). She is making the choice to miss classes/show up late and she missed the last time knowing full well there were legal consequences as a result of doing it. By necessity work appears to be her primary focus right now.

My point is that, in my opinion, there should not have been LEGAL consequences in this case.

Consequences, sure... there is nothing wrong with consequences. They should be reasonable consequences that fit the offense and make sense.

You didn't show up for the pop quiz? Zero on the pop quiz. You missed a test and that's going to bring your honors average down? Too bad. Other people showed up and took the test, so you have to take the zero.
Three latenesses equals one detention? Serve your detention. Missed the detention you were supposed to serve? Explain why to the principal, who gets to decide what the next consequence is, using his or her discretion. Maybe one of those consequences could be sending her to a judge... but that would be for a student who is blowing off school and doesn't care.

Jail? Ridiculous. Waste of everybody's time and resources, and can only achieve the exact opposite of the outcome that is the purpose of truancy laws.

 

[leebee]

If she wanted to get to school she would. At her age she knows attendance is important. She also knows that legal action can be taken against her for being truant (as she was brought into court over it already). She is making the choice to miss classes/show up late and she missed the last time knowing full well there were legal consequences as a result of doing it. By necessity work appears to be her primary focus right now.

You've never been bone tired and overslept, or forgot to set the alarm, or chosen to call in "late" because you were just too tired? NOWHERE does it say that this kid is choosing to miss school; it sounds to me like she's cramming 30 hours of work into a 24 hour day and is just exhausted.

Truancy laws were established to ensure that minor children are adequately educated, even if their parents don't give a darn about sending them to school. I teach school, and I know there are parents for whom it's just too much bother to get up in the morning, or they don't want to bother to shovel the snow, or about a million other lame excuses. Children have no control over their parents, but are entitled to an education regardless of their parents' ignorance. Truancy laws are designed to punish PARENTS, not kids. What 5th grader has $900 to pay a fine? Although the age of majority is 18, in some states 17 year olds are allowed to make some of their own decisions; that seems to be what is happening here, as the judge pulled the student into court and threw the student in jail.

This whole situation is stupid. The kid in question is living up to her obligations at school, and the extenuating circumstances are REAL, not optional, situations in her life. The judge should have looked at the situation the FIRST time he saw the student for truancy, and the school and "system" should have been brought in for support- or perhaps, as she's 17, is she not eligible for Children's Services? Still, this is a sad, sorry situation that could and should have been avoided. Too bad the judge has such an ego; how great would it have been if he could have made a name for himself doing something noble and kind rather than through this?

 

[tigger_mommy]

My best friend in high school had a child on her 16th birthday. She was raped, and chose to keep the child, because it's life was more precious than hers. She worked full-time at a nursing home, went to school and took care of her newborn. All without help from her family. She was exhausted and still an honor student. Her understanding was that the rules applied to her and she was expected to be at school no matter what.

This girl in the article is not going through anything that is new to children in this country. Unfortunately rules are in place to be kept. If you break them, no matter why, they must be upheld. Yes, call me heartless, but rules are rules. I hold my kids accountable to rules so they know when they are no longer in my care, they still apply to them, no matter the situation.

 

[Northstar]

My best friend in high school had a child on her 16th birthday. She was raped, and chose to keep the child, because it's life was more precious than hers. She worked full-time at a nursing home, went to school and took care of her newborn. All without help from her family. She was exhausted and still an honor student. Her understanding was that the rules applied to her and she was expected to be at school no matter what.

This girl in the article is not going through anything that is new to children in this country. Unfortunately rules are in place to be kept. If you break them, no matter why, they must be upheld. Yes, call me heartless, but rules are rules. I hold my kids accountable to rules so they know when they are no longer in my care, they still apply to them, no matter the situation.

Then make sure they are sensible rules that work for, not against, the outcome they were designed to achieve.

I'm not saying we should give her a break because she's a nice kid and trying hard. I'm saying that, when we see the rules work against kids who are trying hard to make the best of their chances, re-consider the rules and make them better.

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

Then make sure they are sensible rules that work for, not against, the outcome they were designed to achieve.

I'm not saying we should give her a break because she's a nice kid and trying hard. I'm saying that, when we see the rules work against kids who are trying hard to make the best of their chances, re-consider the rules and make them better.

Or, use discretion in addressing the consequences for the rule violation. That's what a judge is supposed to do.

Tigger, I'm very happy that your friend was able to dig deep and make it happen. But had she not made it to school, you think the appropriate solution would be jail?

 

[LisaR]

What should the rules be, then? If you are a good student and have extenuating circumstances, you should be given a pass?

Here, she would be receiving "zero" credit and would have to repeat the courses in order to pass. Given her circumstances, that would be even more cruel.

What are the alternate solutions? Since she has been in truancy court more than once, I am pretty sure the discipline has been progressive.

She is obviously a good kid who is working hard under very trying circumstances, and I am sure that a lot of people feel for her, but there are other kids out there who work hard, who struggle with whatever personal issues they may have, and they still manage to follow the rules. How is it fair to those kids that this one child be exempt from the rules?

Again, yes, she definitely needs some social service intervention.

No, you should be given HELP instead of a pass or a one way ticket to jail. Why is it so hard to see a good person that is struggling and think to help her instead of sending her to jail?

You don't exempt her from the rules. You reach out. You extend a helping hand just like you try and do for any other student that is struggling. I wouldn't want her to receive a pass but clearly there were other options between a pass and jail.

 

[Coconut36]

You've never been bone tired and overslept, or forgot to set the alarm, or chosen to call in "late" because you were just too tired? NOWHERE does it say that this kid is choosing to miss school; it sounds to me like she's cramming 30 hours of work into a 24 hour day and is just exhausted.

Truancy laws were established to ensure that minor children are adequately educated, even if their parents don't give a darn about sending them to school. I teach school, and I know there are parents for whom it's just too much bother to get up in the morning, or they don't want to bother to shovel the snow, or about a million other lame excuses. Children have no control over their parents, but are entitled to an education regardless of their parents' ignorance. Truancy laws are designed to punish PARENTS, not kids. What 5th grader has $900 to pay a fine? Although the age of majority is 18, in some states 17 year olds are allowed to make some of their own decisions; that seems to be what is happening here, as the judge pulled the student into court and threw the student in jail.

This whole situation is stupid. The kid in question is living up to her obligations at school, and the extenuating circumstances are REAL, not optional, situations in her life. The judge should have looked at the situation the FIRST time he saw the student for truancy, and the school and "system" should have been brought in for support- or perhaps, as she's 17, is she not eligible for Children's Services? Still, this is a sad, sorry situation that could and should have been avoided. Too bad the judge has such an ego; how great would it have been if he could have made a name for himself doing something noble and kind rather than through this?

If I habitually called into work or showed up late..guess what? Odds are high I would be disciplined and/or lose my job. Even if I had another job, was going to school, had family issues..there are consequences to not showing up or showing up late.

This is not a one time thing. She had to have an established history of tardiness and truancy to have had the first court case..she was then told there would be consequences for missing..instead of making sure she did not miss..she did miss. She then suffered the consequences of doing it. If attending a brick and mortar school was not possible she should have either done a virtual high school (they are prevalent), become homeschooled or stopped attending to get her GED. She had options..if a diploma was important that needs to be her priority.

 

[Coconut36]

No, you should be given HELP instead of a pass or a one way ticket to jail. Why is it so hard to see a good person that is struggling and think to help her instead of sending her to jail?

You don't exempt her from the rules. You reach out. You extend a helping hand just like you try and do for any other student that is struggling. I wouldn't want her to receive a pass but clearly there were other options between a pass and jail.

I don't deny at all she needs help. I do think info is missing. If for example she is an emancipated minor I am guessing then there is no help to offer. She is on her own and the jobs and how she manages her time are on her shoulders.

 

[LisaR]

I don't deny at all she needs help. I do think info is missing. If for example she is an emancipated minor I am guessing then there is no help to offer. She is on her own and the jobs and how she manages her time are on her shoulders.

I disagree. It doesn't matter if she is an emancipated minor. She is a kid that needs some direction. We are a country full of resources. There are people that could help her. Give her the option to receive help or tell her she has to go to jail, if you must, but don't just toss her in jail and think the problem is solved. We cut some slack to all kinds of losers in this country and give them second, third, and fourth chances. The only thing this idiot judge did is tell her not to miss school again or he would jail her and he did just that.

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

If I habitually called into work or showed up late..guess what? Odds are high I would be disciplined and/or lose my job. Even if I had another job, was going to school, had family issues..there are consequences to not showing up or showing up late.

This is not a one time thing. She had to have an established history of tardiness and truancy to have had the first court case..she was then told there would be consequences for missing..instead of making sure she did not miss..she did miss. She then suffered the consequences of doing it. If attending a brick and mortar school was not possible she should have either done a virtual high school (they are prevalent), become homeschooled or stopped attending to get her GED. She had options..if a diploma was important that needs to be her priority.

Yes, you might lose your job. That is a natural consequence. She might get 0's for missing work: that's a natural consequence. Throwing her in jail for trying to better herself when she doesn't need to be in school? Think about that. The only thing requiring her to be in school is her desire for an education above a GED. And she is jailed for that? That really makes sense to you?

I see that you have children. Do you always hand out the same consequence? Do you consider mitigating circumstances? Or are you this rigid with all of your thinking?

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

I disagree. It doesn't matter if she is an emancipated minor. She is a kid that needs some direction. We are a country full of resources. There are people that could help her. Give her the option to receive help or tell her she has to go to jail, if you must, but don't just toss her in jail and think the problem is solved. We cut some slack to all kinds of losers in this country and give them second, third, and fourth chances. The only thing this idiot judge did is tell her not to miss school again or he would jail her and he did just that.

Lisa, since the story first aired, people all over the country have offered help and support. The girl won't speak about the situation anymore, though, because she feels that she shamed her family.

I will admit, this case has me a bit obsessed. I've looked at all of the laws around this incident, and I don't think the judge actually had jurisdiction to send her to jail. Her crime was a Class C misdemeanor, which is punishable by fine, not jail. Even if the judge frames this as a punishment for contempt, it doesn't square with the parameters for punishing the underlying offense.

 

[AlwaysMoving]

No, you should be given HELP instead of a pass or a one way ticket to jail. Why is it so hard to see a good person that is struggling and think to help her instead of sending her to jail?

You don't exempt her from the rules. You reach out. You extend a helping hand just like you try and do for any other student that is struggling. I wouldn't want her to receive a pass but clearly there were other options between a pass and jail.

The helping hand I would offer is to tell her to stop working all those hours and get more sleep. Her brother is in college and can work for his own financial needs. Her sister lives with family members, so they can figure out how to support her. More sleep means this student can wake up in the morning and get to school, as the law requires. I find it hard to believe a judge, school counselor, or someone she lives with has not given her that advice already.

 

[punkin]

Lisa, since the story first aired, people all over the country have offered help and support. The girl won't speak about the situation anymore, though, because she feels that she shamed her family.

I will admit, this case has me a bit obsessed. I've looked at all of the laws around this incident, and I don't think the judge actually had jurisdiction to send her to jail. Her crime was a Class C misdemeanor, which is punishable by fine, not jail. Even if the judge frames this as a punishment for contempt, it doesn't square with the parameters for punishing the underlying offense.

The child needs a good lawyer.

As an aside, given an earlier question...yes there are some people on the DIS who feel the need to punish their children excessively and even post threads titled "help me punish my child." I am not necessarily referring to the one currently active. There have been myriads of these over the years.

 

[handinpocket]

My best friend in high school had a child on her 16th birthday. She was raped, and chose to keep the child, because it's life was more precious than hers. She worked full-time at a nursing home, went to school and took care of her newborn. All without help from her family. She was exhausted and still an honor student. Her understanding was that the rules applied to her and she was expected to be at school no matter what.

This girl in the article is not going through anything that is new to children in this country. Unfortunately rules are in place to be kept. If you break them, no matter why, they must be upheld. Yes, call me heartless, but rules are rules. I hold my kids accountable to rules so they know when they are no longer in my care, they still apply to them, no matter the situation.

Hmmmmm........heartless wasn't quite the word I was going for.

 

[happygirl]

Hmmmmm........heartless wasn't quite the word I was going for.