I thought I loved photography - UPDATE - decision and purchase made

lisaviolet

DIS Veteran
Joined
Jul 9, 2002
Well,

I thought I loved photography but I've come to the conclusion that I don't - I love taking pictures. Two very different things.

So pretty soon I will have the opportunity to upgrade from my point and shoot. It's a Kodak EasyShare Z something. I guess the fact that I can't even remember my camera's name clearly shows my passion. Insert smile.

As does the fact that I nod off when seasoned photographers try to educate me.

Anyway - some notes to help suggestions:

* I am addicted to my telephoto/zoom, severely so I know that the kit lens will not do

* I will never be able to reenact the capabilities of my zoom (12X) and pull back with one lens, correct?

* I 100% need a viewfinder OVF - can not stand screens - do not use them at all

* I am severely jealous of what I call crisp pictures - crazy jealous so that means that the sensor is important, yes? No?

* I love the strong colour of my Kodak, even if it looks too saturated/fake and am totally and utterly uninterested in any editing after the fact

* I am hard on equipment

* I would be fine with my Kodak but it's really awful with low light even with a tripod (forgive me if this sentence makes zero sense)

* Will I be irritated with using a telephoto all the time and not being able to pull back far enough to get my shot? Or fast enough?

I was thinking of a mirrorless but unsure where to go, given what part of photography gives me joy.

Thanks in advance,

Lisa
 
I would look at some mirrorless options, what is your price range?
You can get lenses that go from wide, to very telephoto, all in one package, of almost any system.
 
ON the view finder... does it have to be a TTL viewfinder, or are you good with a peep hole like you've likely been using?

Crisp pictures... the lens, focusing, processing and photographer's skill have a whole lot more to do with it than the sensor. Until you start getting to low light work that is.

Your Kodak's color is all in the way it processes the images. You can duplicate that look easily with software.

Learn why your Kodak is bad in low light before you jump into something like a DSLR or mirrorless with a telephoto lens or you may be disappointed with that in low light as well. (You probably have a combination of aperture and ISO limitations with your Kodak)

I'm brutal on my equipment. That's why I have insurance on it. Though I've never actually broken anything and I've got some pretty old gear.
 
I would suggest going to a local camera store and just running through several different brands and types of cameras and get an idea of how they feel in your hands. At this point ergonomics is just as important as anything when starting out....most of the main DSLR or Mirrorless cameras are great starting points with photography. Set a budget and try some cameras out...

I wish I would have done this in the beginning....I spent days, months, agonizing over which camera to start with...I made lists, looked at pros and cons, etc...basically I decided based on how the camera felt in my hands.

There is a ton to learn going forward, but it is best to get a solid foundation in the basics - ISO, Shutter Speed and Aperture...considered online course or local community college. In the end, shoot, review, shoot and repeat...

You would be surprised at what a Kit Lens can really do...and some have decent zoom ranges. The Nikon 18-140mm lens that came with my camera has been my primary lens and offers me enough options to create the photo...do not underestimate the kit lens.

Good luck and I hope you find something that works for you...
 
Thank you. Can't reply more right now, about to get on a train. Appreciate all the help.
 
* I am addicted to my telephoto/zoom, severely so I know that the kit lens will not do

* I will never be able to reenact the capabilities of my zoom (12X) and pull back with one lens, correct?
It won't replace a genuine telephoto - but that's OK. A kit lens is usually 18-55, and sometimes an 18-105 or 18-140 zoom lens. Your Kodak is probably roughly equivalent to an 18-200mm zoom (on an APS-C sensor camera), which isn't too far off from an 18-140. The higher resolution of a modern camera will allow you to crop and make up the difference. They also sell 18-200mm zooms, and even 18-300 mm zoom lenses to do it, "All-in-one," but you can also pick up a kit with an 18-55 and 55-200 or 55-300 mm lens. You may have to swap lenses, but they're cheaper, lighter, and better quality (the longer the zoom range, the more compromises have to go into its design).
* I 100% need a viewfinder OVF - can not stand screens - do not use them at all
You'll need a DSLR for a true OVF, but also try out some newer EVFs - they may be the ticket you're looking for and you don't even know it. The versatility of a screen with the usefulness of a viewfinder. They're not for everybody (I prefer a TTL OVF myself for a variety of reasons) but they're sufficiently better than any Kodak EasyShare OVF that you'll probably love it, too.
* I am severely jealous of what I call crisp pictures - crazy jealous so that means that the sensor is important, yes? No?
It's not unimportant, but the lens in front and the skill of the person using the camera is where that comes in.
* I love the strong colour of my Kodak, even if it looks too saturated/fake and am totally and utterly uninterested in any editing after the fact
I have color profiles on my Nikon bodies to replicate Kodak color (from Kodachrome, Ektachrome, Tri-X, et cetera). Canon may have something similar, but the color profiles work on my compact cameras as well as my DSLRs from Nikon.
* I am hard on equipment
Get insurance and don't buy from the bottom of the lines. Even one model up is usually much more durable in many ways. For instance, the D3300 has no weather sealing at all, while the D5300/D5500 do have modest weather sealing around key parts.
* I would be fine with my Kodak but it's really awful with low light even with a tripod (forgive me if this sentence makes zero sense)
It makes sense - the Kodak is much older and wasn't designed with a big sensor or long exposures in mind. The bigger the sensor, the better this does.
* Will I be irritated with using a telephoto all the time and not being able to pull back far enough to get my shot? Or fast enough?
Yes, but if I have my normal zoom with me as well I don't find it to be an issue to change the lens quickly. That said, that's why all-in-one Zooms exist.

Mirrorless is a good option to look into, but so are DSLRs. Since you seem to like the convenience zoom aspect, I'd look at the Nikon V3 with 10-100mm zoom (this has a higher crop factor, so works like an 18-180mm zoom), or a D5500 with 18-300mm zoom, or something like the Rebel SL1 with similar lenses, or even Sony or m4/3. That said, as the poster above said, go check them out in person. It's a big enough investment, and heavy enough, that whatever feels best in your hand to use is going to be important.

That said, also look seriously at the Canon G3X. It has a 25x zoom, much higher image quality similar to many mirrorless cameras, and doesn't involve you swapping lenses. The viewfinder is an optional add-on, but for you the convenience of not having interchangeable lenses may outweigh that significantly. :)
 
Thank you.

I want to clear up the "clear crisp pictures". It seems like I communicated that part poorly. I fully understand that a lovely picture is a combination of the gift of one's eye and the technical ability of the photographer. I know that and yet I am still uninterested in the technical aspect, but know and respect that that is missing from the possibilities of improving my photography. Even I am frustrated with me! But at least I know my own limitations.

I am not talking about that at all. I am talking about using my Kodak on automatic and using a DSLR on automatic. I have done that and there is a huge difference in the crisp factor. And that is probably the only reason to buy a new camera, quite honestly. And low light issues with my Kodak, once again comparing to automatic to automatic for the most part.
 
That said, also look seriously at the Canon G3X. It has a 25x zoom, much higher image quality similar to many mirrorless cameras, and doesn't involve you swapping lenses. The viewfinder is an optional add-on, but for you the convenience of not having interchangeable lenses may outweigh that significantly. :)


This might be the answer.

EDIT: Sorry jec6613 reading too quickly. I know see that the viewfinder is an add-on.

Your post really helped. I don't think there is a need for me to go DSLR or mirrorless. It will probably be a bridge camera. Panasonic FZ1000 or Sony RX-10 or RX-10 II are the three I need to hold. I lose some zoom with the Sonys but they look like great cameras.
 
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I would look at some mirrorless options, what is your price range?
You can get lenses that go from wide, to very telephoto, all in one package, of almost any system.

On the first, unsure of how much I want to spend. I would not be comfortable with more than $2000.

Second point - I have used those lenses, friend's camera, and it absolutely does not reenact my quick abilities on my pull back, push out now. Maybe I wasn't using what you are talking about. I believe it was a 18-200. I'm sorry if this seems inconceivable, no sarcasm.

And a side note on this ---- does this mean that I truly should be looking at a bridge camera? Ie. I only appreciate the quick feature of a zoom and back button? Could this be the issue? I'm thinking yes.
 
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ON the view finder... does it have to be a TTL viewfinder, or are you good with a peep hole like you've likely been using?[

Yes, photo_chick. Totally satisfied with it. Great point.

Crisp pictures... the lens, focusing, processing and photographer's skill have a whole lot more to do with it than the sensor. Until you start getting to low light work that is.

See my other post. I know that but am simply comparing automatic to automatic.

Your Kodak's color is all in the way it processes the images. You can duplicate that look easily with software.

Sorry if I sound defensive or not appreciative, I know that as well. But do not want to do any editing (I am assuming you're referring to that). Was inquiring if there was a camera that really saturates their colour in their processing.

Learn why your Kodak is bad in low light before you jump into something like a DSLR or mirrorless with a telephoto lens or you may be disappointed with that in low light as well. (You probably have a combination of aperture and ISO limitations with your Kodak)

EDIT: My apologies I think I totally misunderstood your point. A professional told me it was a sensor limitation.

I have used/played with some DSLRs, automatic, and other point and shoots and they have better low light capabilities.

I'm brutal on my equipment. That's why I have insurance on it. Though I've never actually broken anything and I've got some pretty old gear.

Thanks for this photo_chick. And thank you for taking the time to help me.
 
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I would suggest going to a local camera store and just running through several different brands and types of cameras and get an idea of how they feel in your hands. At this point ergonomics is just as important as anything when starting out....most of the main DSLR or Mirrorless cameras are great starting points with photography. Set a budget and try some cameras out...

I wish I would have done this in the beginning....I spent days, months, agonizing over which camera to start with...I made lists, looked at pros and cons, etc...basically I decided based on how the camera felt in my hands.

There is a ton to learn going forward, but it is best to get a solid foundation in the basics - ISO, Shutter Speed and Aperture...considered online course or local community college. In the end, shoot, review, shoot and repeat...

You would be surprised at what a Kit Lens can really do...and some have decent zoom ranges. The Nikon 18-140mm lens that came with my camera has been my primary lens and offers me enough options to create the photo...do not underestimate the kit lens.

Good luck and I hope you find something that works for you...

The bold is the issue. No interest. I am not naive and thinking my photographs are going to be way better without education and skill and a new camera is going to be some kind of Godsend. I have always fully understood that a camera does not make a picture, the person does.

I only want to replace my Kodak to improve a few features/issues. That is all.

Great advice. I've been told to go in and hold cameras by multiple people. I need to do that. Thank you TheBigE for your time in sharing your thoughts and helping me.
 
I have color profiles on my Nikon bodies to replicate Kodak color (from Kodachrome, Ektachrome, Tri-X, et cetera). Canon may have something similar, but the color profiles work on my compact cameras as well as my DSLRs from Nikon.

Wow, thanks. I had no clue that existed. I know this sounds weird, but it is a big issue to me. I bought another Kodak off of Ebay, higher up point and shoot, it had four colour processing features and none of them were my colour processing equivalent on my Kodak model. Seems stupid, but it bothered me and I never use the camera.

Guide me, is this only a certain brand feature?

You'll need a DSLR for a true OVF, but also try out some newer EVFs - they may be the ticket you're looking for and you don't even know it. The versatility of a screen with the usefulness of a viewfinder. They're not for everybody (I prefer a TTL OVF myself for a variety of reasons) but they're sufficiently better than any Kodak EasyShare OVF that you'll probably love it, too.

I'm sorry for my ignorance, are you referring to what photo_chick was noting?

It makes sense - the Kodak is much older and wasn't designed with a big sensor or long exposures in mind. The bigger the sensor, the better this does.

Thank you for this.

Yes (on the will I be irritated on comparing my zoom)

The best. The yes made me laugh out loud. Thanks for the honesty. I need it.

(this has a higher crop factor, so works like an 18-180mm zoom)

I feel vulnerable to say this but I'm not sure I fully understand this point. Could you try again? Thanks.

That said, also look seriously at the Canon G3X. It has a 25x zoom, much higher image quality similar to many mirrorless cameras, and doesn't involve you swapping lenses. The viewfinder is an optional add-on, but for you the convenience of not having interchangeable lenses may outweigh that significantly. :)

Thanks for this. A comparable Panasonic came up as well when googling this suggestion. FZ1000. Thoughts?

Could someone please help me understand these specifications. I obviously understand the Optical 16x, but how do the other features work?

Optical: 16x
Extra Optical Zoom (EZ): 22.4x
Extra Optical Zoom (EZ): 32x
Intelligent Zoom: 32x
Digital: 4x
 
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Wow, thanks. I had no clue that existed. I know this sounds weird, but it is a big issue to me. I bought another Kodak off of Ebay, higher up point and shoot, it had four colour processing features and none of them were my colour processing equivalent on my Kodak model. Seems stupid, but it bothered me and I never use the camera.

Guide me, is this only a certain brand feature?



I'm sorry for my ignorance, are you referring to what photo_chick was noting?



Thank you for this.



The best. The yes made me laugh out loud. Thanks for the honesty. I need it.



I feel vulnerable to say this but I'm not sure I fully understand this point. Could you try again? Thanks.



Thanks for this. A comparable Panasonic came up as well when googling this suggestion. FZ1000. Thoughts?

Could someone please help me understand these specifications. I obviously understand the Optical 16x, but how do the other features work?

Optical: 16x
Extra Optical Zoom (EZ): 22.4x
Extra Optical Zoom (EZ): 32x
Intelligent Zoom: 32x
Digital: 4x

Except for dslrs, you don't really see OVF viewfinders. Certainly, outside of dslrs, you can't get TTL OVF.
The good mirrorless, bridge, p&s... Like the fz1000, the Sony rx10, etc... They all have EVFs.
Some have poor EVFs, some have great EVFs. Many shooters prefer a good EVF over an OVF, since it gives you a superior chance to preview the shot, plus review settings and chimp shots in the viewfinder.
But if you absolutely must have OVF, then your options are very limited.
 
If your budget is $2000 you can very easily buy an extremely nice camera. I'm no expert, but in my experience DSLRs give you the most for your money. I use a Cannon Rebel T3i which is a few years old, but you can pick up now for under $500 if you shop around which leaves you with plenty of money in your budget for a lens. Even if you aren't interested in the finer points of photography the automatic settings on this camera produce really nice images.
 
Guide me, is this only a certain brand feature?

Generally, most cameras nowadays have various picture setting modes, and many cameras can allow manual adjustments to fine tune the output within each of those picture setting modes. Some have actual film simulation modes (ie: Velvia, Kodak Gold, etc), others may just have 'landscape', 'vivid', and such. But within each of those modes, there is often an options button that allows you to further tune the contrast, saturation, and sharpness within that mode to fine-tune the camera's output just the way you like it.

I'm sorry for my ignorance, are you referring to what photo_chick was noting?

If I'm explaining something you already know, please excuse - but it seemed possible that you might not know the distinction between LCD and EVF. I understand that you don't want to shoot using the LCD panels on the backs of cameras, and prefer to place a viewfinder up to your eye to shoot. But there are two types of viewfinder - optical (OVF) and electronic (EVF). Not having an OVF may not matter as much to you as long as the camera has an EVF - this still allows you to put the camera up to your eye, looking through a finder, to frame and compose your shot. It's not an optical image, looking through the lens' glass directly, but it's an electronic image of what the sensor is seeing through the glass, allows short eye focus which can help with people that have vision issues or macular degeneration, and still helps shield out light and other interference when shooting. Since many higher-end P&S cameras like the ones you mentioned (Sony RX10, Panasonic FZ1000) and mirrorless cameras have EVFs, they may fit the bill.

(this has a higher crop factor, so works like an 18-180mm zoom)
I feel vulnerable to say this but I'm not sure I fully understand this point. Could you try again? Thanks.

Crop factors are referenced usually more with interchangeable lens cameras, but technically apply to ALL cameras. The basic summary is that 35mm film is the reference point referred to as 'full frame'. Some DSLR cameras come with 'full frame' sensors - and all lens nomenclature is based on this frame size, so that a '35mm' lens stuck on one of these cameras results in a '35mm' view...ie: no crop. As sensors get smaller, the smaller sensor is using a smaller image circle - if that very same 35mm lens was attached to a camera with a smaller sensor, the image would appear to be similar to a 'cropped' photo from that full frame camera - you'd take that full size photograph, and cut out the central portion, and that would match the total frame size that the smaller sensor camera captures. The most common sensor size in interchangeable lens cameras is known as 'APS-C'. When you hear reference to a crop factor for APS-C sensors, it's usually 1.5x (Canon's sensors are slighly smaller than the rest of the industry so their crop factor is actually 1.6x for APS-C). You multiply any lens' focal range by 1.5x, and that's the equivalent view and framing you're going to get when using the APS-C sensor camera. A 35mm lens on APS-C will yield a 'crop factor' equivalent to a 52.5mm lens on a full frame camera. As the sensor gets smaller, the crop factor gets bigger - hence Micro 4:3 cameras from Olympus and Panasonic which have a smaller sensor than APS-C have a 'crop factor' of 2x, and the the Nikon 1 and Sony RX cameras which use a 1" sensor have a 'crop factor' of 2.7x. Though you don't see it mentioned as much with P&S cameras - they too have a 'crop factor'. Take a typical point-and-shoot camera with a bigger zoom lens - they may claim to have the equivalent zoom of, say, 27mm to 420mm (12x). But the sensor on these cameras are quite tiny, usually 1/2.5" (12x smaller than the APS-C cameras) - your Kodak likely has a sensor like this. If you look at the front of the lens, you'll see a small sounding focal range like 4.5-42. That's the actual focal range of that lens with no crop factor applied - that tiny sensor will have a crop factor of 6x - multiply 4.5x6 and voila! 27mm. Multiply 42x6 and voila! 420mm.

Thanks for this. A comparable Panasonic came up as well when googling this suggestion. FZ1000. Thoughts?

The FZ1000 and Sony RX10 cameras are large bodied P&S cameras with larger 1" sensors...they will have higher overall quality and better ability in low light situations than your tiny-sensor compacts like your Kodak, but generally not quite as capable as the even-larger sensored interchangeable lens cameras like mirrorless M4:3 or APS-C cameras...like anything, a compromise. These bodies are quite large - comparable in size to an APS-C DSLR camera plus kit lens - so be aware they will often dwarf your old Kodak in size and weight - but also be quite a bit more capable. The FZ1000 has more lens reach than the RX10 - both use essentially the same sensor. The Sony body has better build, and is weatherproof, the Panasonic has more optical zoom reach.

Could someone please help me understand these specifications. I obviously understand the Optical 16x, but how do the other features work?

Optical: 16x
Extra Optical Zoom (EZ): 22.4x
Extra Optical Zoom (EZ): 32x
Intelligent Zoom: 32x
Digital: 4x

Generally, the best advice most would agree with is: ignore all but the optical zoom. That's the only true zoom that is getting you closer to the subject with no compromise to the sensor's original pixel output and resolution. Typically, 'smart zoom' 'intelligent zoom' and 'extra optical zoom' is a mode which lowers the camera's resolution setting to amplify the 'crop factor' - if the camera is normally a 20MP sensor, then using extra optical zoom to reach out to 22x will lower resolution to, say, 10MP. It's not really any different than if you were to take the photo with the normal optical zoom, and just crop the photo a little tighter on your computer. Digital zoom is generally worse, because it's destructive - it's not only 'cropping in' tighter, but then digitally enhancing and trying to up-res the results back to fit the full 20mp output - in doing so, it's filling in information that isn't there - and rarely results in positive results unless needed in a real pinch. Remember too what that '16x' number means. Some people get confused by thinking that the bigger the 'x' number, the more reach the camera has...this is not always the case. The key figure to know is, what is the equivalent focal reach of the camera at the widest setting? That's what the 16x is being multiplied with! So if a camera has a 24mm wide end focal reach and a 16x zoom, you multiply those numbers and the maximum reach is 384mm. Now take another camera that ONLY has 12x zoom. Less reach, right? But wait...that camera's wide end focal reach is 36mm...so when you multiply 36 x 12, you get 432mm! There's an example where 12x has more reach than 16x. Always remember to find out the widest 'mm' equivalent, so you know what that 'X' zoom figure is being multiplied by.

Hope all that wasn't far too confusing!
 
Justin, before I ramble on about your points - thank you. Thank you for taking the time to do that. It really helps.

Lisa
 
If I'm explaining something you already know, please excuse - but it seemed possible that you might not know the distinction between LCD and EVF. I understand that you don't want to shoot using the LCD panels on the backs of cameras, and prefer to place a viewfinder up to your eye to shoot. But there are two types of viewfinder - optical (OVF) and electronic (EVF). Not having an OVF may not matter as much to you as long as the camera has an EVF - this still allows you to put the camera up to your eye, looking through a finder, to frame and compose your shot. It's not an optical image, looking through the lens' glass directly, but it's an electronic image of what the sensor is seeing through the glass, allows short eye focus which can help with people that have vision issues or macular degeneration, and still helps shield out light and other interference when shooting. Since many higher-end P&S cameras like the ones you mentioned (Sony RX10, Panasonic FZ1000) and mirrorless cameras have EVFs, they may fit the bill.

I did know that - that I was only viewing an electronic image, but am probably using improper terms trying to respond to it. I was using EVF for LCD panel.

Yes, anything to hold up to my eye will absolutely fit the bill Justin. In fact, I'm pretty sure I prefer it with being sensitive to light. Great information.

and voila (with cropping)

You say voila, I say my eyes are getting very heavy. Laughing.

I understand now. Thank you so much.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The information comparing the cameras, invaluable. Thank you. And here lies the decision. It probably will be the Panasonic FZ1000 or the Sony RX-10 or RX-10 II for sure.


I don't think it's necessary for me to spend the money on the II because the upgrades will not have much of an effect on what I want to do. Hopefully, I will know when they are in my hands. My friend guided me today about losing some lens reach with the Sony but I do like that it's a better choice for weather/wear for sure.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Your words - like anything, a compromise.

Yes, absolutely. I'm at peace not to upgrade to a mirrorless or a DSLR. People around me always assumed that I should upgrade to either of those but I remained cautious knowing that I have little interest beyond the joy of a good shot, for me I mean - I fully understand that seasoned photographers have a totally different idea of what that entails. It feels great to cross off the other options.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ignoring all but the optical zoom

That is what I thought, but was not confident with it. Thank you for explaining that. So with your explanation I should not worry too much about the Sony being 8.3 X? I think that is where I am hung up between the two.

Thank you for all that Justin. I know it's strange not wanting to improve your photographic capabilities in terms of both skill and technology, but fortunately I know that is not where my joy lives. In fact, it takes away some of the passion I have for the shot.
 
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If your budget is $2000 you can very easily buy an extremely nice camera. I'm no expert, but in my experience DSLRs give you the most for your money. I use a Cannon Rebel T3i which is a few years old, but you can pick up now for under $500 if you shop around which leaves you with plenty of money in your budget for a lens. Even if you aren't interested in the finer points of photography the automatic settings on this camera produce really nice images.

Thanks Michelle. I almost missed your post.

It is a nice camera, absolutely. It is the model that I have held and used. And it would probably be my choice for a DSLR, since I don't need much beyond simplicity. But when I used it I was frustrated not to go in and out at rapid speed that I'm able to do with my P & S. And I would never change a lens. Just wouldn't. I would like to think I would! And then I have to face reality that I'm carrying around a larger lens all the time.

My friend laughs that I could simply move in and out myself!

It does produce very nice images on automatic. That is where my envy came from - auto on the Rebel, auto on mine.
 
Except for dslrs, you don't really see OVF viewfinders. Certainly, outside of dslrs, you can't get TTL OVF.
The good mirrorless, bridge, p&s... Like the fz1000, the Sony rx10, etc... They all have EVFs.
Some have poor EVFs, some have great EVFs. Many shooters prefer a good EVF over an OVF, since it gives you a superior chance to preview the shot, plus review settings and chimp shots in the viewfinder.
But if you absolutely must have OVF, then your options are very limited.

Thanks havoc. I was using improper terms.
 
Update: Hard decision but decided on the Sony RX10 ii. Bought it last week.Thank you, some of the comments here convinced me it was best to stay away from mirrorless and DSLR - with that part of the decision I felt at peace. So big thanks.

Here are some shots from Colorado Springs in general and a sombre yet overwhelmingly touching event
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