Hamas - Mickey Mouse clone

[JoeEpcotRocks]

If you want to know why what was said was racist and stereotypical, I highly recommend reading some Edward Said or Foucault. Buzzwords like "infidel" and "unholy" when used by westerners about how Muslims feel about them are part of the paradigmatic vocabulary of racism that pervades how we as Americans view "the other." It wasn;t meant as racism in the way that we generally think of it, i.e. you may not necessarily hate all Muslims, or want them to die, but in classifying Muslims as a separate kind of people with a singular world view in which the West is evil and unholy denies them their free will and humanity.

Additionally, even when just talking about Hamas members, it seems so much easier to make blanket "they" statements that anyone with any kind of sense would know are patently untrue than to actually see them as human beings with rational thoughts and decision-making processes that it is all but inevitable that most Americans would choose to describe them as an unreasonable and terrifying monolith.

Clearly, the use of terror as a political tool is abhorrent, and groups such as Hamas should be taken to task for their actions. Personally, I'm digusted and saddened by the state of affairs in the West Bank and Gaza and the use of a children's show to advocate violence is a terrible thing. But the fact of the matter is that it simply is NOT TRUE that these things happen because they ahte freedom, or because they hate Jews, or because they hate America. Why would any rational person choose (and more than 50% of the Palestinian population voted for Hamas, and most agree with their methods and ideology) to devote their lives to terror, to basically forfeit any chance at a decent life. There are ugly truths at work in this situation, and they are unpleasant to face.

So, we can either see Palestinians/Muslims/etc. as rational beings, and attempt to better understand the situation, or we can say that "they" behave this way because "they" have specific inherent beleifs about the West. That's what was being said and anytime we imbue another culture/race/religion with negative characteristics it is by defenition racist and stereotypical.

I do not see Hamas, a terrorists organization, or those who vote for them as "rational." Their beliefs about the Jews and the West seem pretty clear.

 

[skeleton_pirate]

I do not see Hamas, a terrorists organization, or those who vote for them as "rational." Their beliefs about the Jews and the West seem pretty clear.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Denying any group of people their innate rationality is by definition racist.

It's also fairly clear that you really don't know much about Hamas at all. I work on a U.S. government project to promote democracy in the West Bank and Gaza, and having spent a lot of time living both in the West Bank and in Israel and having spoken to a lot of people, your assessment of Hamas' beliefs is pretty off the mark, and you seem to be combining Hamas and al-Qaeda. They are completely different beasts. I never heard one person say that they hated Jews- there is hatred towards Israel, certainly, but I,having almost been killed by Israeli troops on several occasions, and after witnessing the pain and suffering that the Palestinian people have been through in the past couple of years, I can totally see how it would be a rational opinion. As a westerner, I felt safer in Ramallah than I do in Washington DC. More than anything, people there wanted Americans to feel safe and welcome in the West Bank, and to go back and tell the stories that the American media simply does not tell. Judging by what you hear and read in the US, I can understand why you have your prejudices, but the fact of the matter is that you are receiving faulty information that is easy to digest, and you believe it as gospel truth. Nothing is ever that simple.

People did not vote for Hamas to kill the Jews. They voted for them because they were an alternative to the corrupt Fatah government who had been in power for decades only to see the quality of life of the Palestinian people degrade to unimaginable levels. They voted for Hamas because Hamas promised to fix their streets, build schools, and pay them the salaries that the Fatah government had been unable to do for several years. Do you have any idea how many Palestinian Christians voted for Hamas?

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

That's exactly what I'm saying. Denying any group of people their innate rationality is by definition racist.

It's also fairly clear that you really don't know much about Hamas at all. I work on a U.S. government project to promote democracy in the West Bank and Gaza, and having spent a lot of time living both in the West Bank and in Israel and having spoken to a lot of people, your assessment of Hamas' beliefs is pretty off the mark, and you seem to be combining Hamas and al-Qaeda. They are completely different beasts. I never heard one person say that they hated Jews- there is hatred towards Israel, certainly, but I,having almost been killed by Israeli troops on several occasions, and after witnessing the pain and suffering that the Palestinian people have been through in the past couple of years, I can totally see how it would be a rational opinion. As a westerner, I felt safer in Ramallah than I do in Washington DC. More than anything, people there wanted Americans to feel safe and welcome in the West Bank, and to go back and tell the stories that the American media simply does not tell. Judging by what you hear and read in the US, I can understand why you have your prejudices, but the fact of the matter is that you are receiving faulty information that is easy to digest, and you believe it as gospel truth. Nothing is ever that simple.

People did not vote for Hamas to kill the Jews. They voted for them because they were an alternative to the corrupt Fatah government who had been in power for decades only to see the quality of life of the Palestinian people degrade to unimaginable levels. They voted for Hamas because Hamas promised to fix their streets, build schools, and pay them the salaries that the Fatah government had been unable to do for several years. Do you have any idea how many Palestinian Christians voted for Hamas?

So Hamas made some nice promises. Still lipstick on a pig. They are a terrorists organization, both by word and act.

It's not a matter of race.

The pain and suffering of the Palestinians is mostly self-inflicted by thier own "leaders."

 

[MasterShake]

If you want to know why what was said was racist and stereotypical, I highly recommend reading some Edward Said or Foucault. Buzzwords like "infidel" and "unholy" when used by westerners about how Muslims feel about them are part of the paradigmatic vocabulary of racism that pervades how we as Americans view "the other." It wasn;t meant as racism in the way that we generally think of it, i.e. you may not necessarily hate all Muslims, or want them to die, but in classifying Muslims as a separate kind of people with a singular world view in which the West is evil and unholy denies them their free will and humanity.

Additionally, even when just talking about Hamas members, it seems so much easier to make blanket "they" statements that anyone with any kind of sense would know are patently untrue than to actually see them as human beings with rational thoughts and decision-making processes that it is all but inevitable that most Americans would choose to describe them as an unreasonable and terrifying monolith.

Clearly, the use of terror as a political tool is abhorrent, and groups such as Hamas should be taken to task for their actions. Personally, I'm digusted and saddened by the state of affairs in the West Bank and Gaza and the use of a children's show to advocate violence is a terrible thing. But the fact of the matter is that it simply is NOT TRUE that these things happen because they ahte freedom, or because they hate Jews, or because they hate America. Why would any rational person choose (and more than 50% of the Palestinian population voted for Hamas, and most agree with their methods and ideology) to devote their lives to terror, to basically forfeit any chance at a decent life. There are ugly truths at work in this situation, and they are unpleasant to face.

So, we can either see Palestinians/Muslims/etc. as rational beings, and attempt to better understand the situation, or we can say that "they" behave this way because "they" have specific inherent beleifs about the West. That's what was being said and anytime we imbue another culture/race/religion with negative characteristics it is by defenition racist and stereotypical.

Here is a pretty good article I read the other day about one of Hamas's leaders. Your right I did not see the word Infidel or unholy anywhere in the article...Wait...oops I guess he did say infidel toward the end.....

Palestinian leader: 'Kill every American and Jew'
Speaker of PA parliament says U.S. on its way to 'disappearing'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: May 3, 2007
11:23 a.m. Eastern


By Aaron Klein
© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com


Ahmad Bahar
TEL AVIV – Every American and Jew in the world must be killed, demanded Ahmad Bahar, the speaker of the Palestinian Authority parliament in a televised speech, explaining the U.S. is on its way to collapse.

"Allah, take hold of the Jews and their allies, Allah, take hold of the Americans and their allies. ... Allah, count them and kill them to the last one and don't leave even one," said Bahar last week in a speech broadcast on official PA television, which is controlled by PA President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah party.

Bahar, a Hamas member, is a senior figure in the Hamas-Fatah unity government headed by Abbas.

His speech was translated this week by Palestinian Media Watch, which provided a video excerpt that can be seen here.

Bahar declared the U.S. has been defeated.

"Be certain that America is on its way to disappear. America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine. ... Make us victorious over the infidel people.

"This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our people was afflicted by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation."

 

[skeleton_pirate]

Here is a pretty good article I read the other day about one of Hamas's leaders. Your right I did not see the word Infidel or unholy anywhere in the article...Wait...oops I guess he did say infidel toward the end.....

Palestinian leader: 'Kill every American and Jew'
Speaker of PA parliament says U.S. on its way to 'disappearing'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: May 3, 2007
11:23 a.m. Eastern


By Aaron Klein
© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com


Ahmad Bahar
TEL AVIV – Every American and Jew in the world must be killed, demanded Ahmad Bahar, the speaker of the Palestinian Authority parliament in a televised speech, explaining the U.S. is on its way to collapse.

"Allah, take hold of the Jews and their allies, Allah, take hold of the Americans and their allies. ... Allah, count them and kill them to the last one and don't leave even one," said Bahar last week in a speech broadcast on official PA television, which is controlled by PA President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah party.

Bahar, a Hamas member, is a senior figure in the Hamas-Fatah unity government headed by Abbas.

His speech was translated this week by Palestinian Media Watch, which provided a video excerpt that can be seen here.

Bahar declared the U.S. has been defeated.

"Be certain that America is on its way to disappear. America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine. ... Make us victorious over the infidel people.

"This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our people was afflicted by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation."

Thanks guys, you totally helped me argue my point. That article is poorly translated from the Arabic to include the buzzwords that Americans like to hear. Do you speak Arabic well enough to understand the original? Cause I do. Am I supposed to be upset that a political leader gave a speech that called for the destruction of one's enemy during a time of war? Do I think Bush is evil because he calls for the destruction of our enemies?

Ignorance is bliss people, far be it from me to knock you off your morally superior highground, even if it is precariously balanced on willfull ignorance and lies. Honestly, if any of you have ever actually read a book about the subject, I would be more than happy to engage in a meaningful debate. If you're just going to come out with "Well I have a very strong opinion that I will voice even though I've only ever heard about it from CNN!" don't bother. If I want frighteningly uninformed opinions about major topics, I'll talk to my mother about gay rights.

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

Thanks guys, you totally helped me argue my point. That article is poorly translated from the Arabic to include the buzzwords that Americans like to hear. Do you speak Arabic well enough to understand the original? Cause I do. Am I supposed to be upset that a political leader gave a speech that called for the destruction of one's enemy during a time of war? Do I think Bush is evil because he calls for the destruction of our enemies?

Ignorance is bliss people, far be it from me to knock you off your morally superior highground, even if it is precariously balanced on willfull ignorance and lies. Honestly, if any of you have ever actually read a book about the subject, I would be more than happy to engage in a meaningful debate. If you're just going to come out with "Well I have a very strong opinion that I will voice even though I've only ever heard about it from CNN!" don't bother. If I want frighteningly uninformed opinions about major topics, I'll talk to my mother about gay rights.

Who are they at war with??

Do tell, what was is the real translation?

 

[MasterShake]

Thanks guys, you totally helped me argue my point. That article is poorly translated from the Arabic to include the buzzwords that Americans like to hear. Do you speak Arabic well enough to understand the original? Cause I do. Am I supposed to be upset that a political leader gave a speech that called for the destruction of one's enemy during a time of war? Do I think Bush is evil because he calls for the destruction of our enemies?

Ignorance is bliss people, far be it from me to knock you off your morally superior highground, even if it is precariously balanced on willfull ignorance and lies. Honestly, if any of you have ever actually read a book about the subject, I would be more than happy to engage in a meaningful debate. If you're just going to come out with "Well I have a very strong opinion that I will voice even though I've only ever heard about it from CNN!" don't bother. If I want frighteningly uninformed opinions about major topics, I'll talk to my mother about gay rights.

That's amazing, within 14 minutes you read my response, found the transcript in Arabic, determined that the previous translation was incorrect, and then wrote a two paragraph response to my post. `It's no wonder that you are a super secret govement agent. I bet your also a millionaire and you have a very attractive girlfriend that lives in Canada.

 

[skeleton_pirate]

That's amazing, within 14 minutes you read my response, found the transcript in Arabic, determined that the previous translation was incorrect, and then wrote a two paragraph response to my post. `It's no wonder that you are a super secret govement agent. I bet your also a millionaire and you have a very attractive girlfriend that lives in Canada.

Really? inappropriate personal attacks that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic? I guess you showed me!

A) It wasn't that long... and I didn't have to learn the language in the meantime.
B) Never said I was a super secret government agent. In fact, I already said exactly what it was that I do for a living. If it was secret, and I told you, I'd probably be in a lot of trouble.
C) I'm not a milionaire. I make very little money. Remember? I work for the government. If I were a millionaire, would my signature say that I stay at Pop Century or All Stars?
D) My wife objects to the thought that she lives in Canada. See, I also mention my honeymoon in my signature.

Wanna call me fat?

 

[MasterShake]

Really? inappropriate personal attacks that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic?

Ah, you mean like.......

Ignorance is bliss people, far be it from me to knock you off your morally superior highground, even if it is precariously balanced on willfull ignorance and lies.

Willful only has one L…..

A) It wasn't that long... and I didn't have to learn the language in the meantime.

Even if you speak perfect Arabic, you had to notice my post, find an Arabic version, read two articles (in two different languages), and then write your paragraph.

As the previous poster stated, we would love to here a real expert translation.

C) I'm not a milionaire. I make very little money. Remember? I work for the government. If I were a millionaire, would my signature say that I stay at Pop Century or All Stars?
D) My wife objects to the thought that she lives in Canada. See, I also mention my honeymoon in my signature.

I just figured these were part of your disguise.

Oh, and millionaire has two L’s. I often make spelling mistakes too, but my education was precariously balanced on willful ignorance and lies.

 

[ASilmser]

Thanks guys, you totally helped me argue my point. That article is poorly translated from the Arabic to include the buzzwords that Americans like to hear. Do you speak Arabic well enough to understand the original? Cause I do. Am I supposed to be upset that a political leader gave a speech that called for the destruction of one's enemy during a time of war? Do I think Bush is evil because he calls for the destruction of our enemies?

Ignorance is bliss people, far be it from me to knock you off your morally superior highground, even if it is precariously balanced on willfull ignorance and lies. Honestly, if any of you have ever actually read a book about the subject, I would be more than happy to engage in a meaningful debate. If you're just going to come out with "Well I have a very strong opinion that I will voice even though I've only ever heard about it from CNN!" don't bother. If I want frighteningly uninformed opinions about major topics, I'll talk to my mother about gay rights.

The Israeli/Palestinian conflict has been going on for 60 years in it's modern form, and thousands of years before that. I don't think that we are going to solve it on this board.

The fact is that there are some very smart people who know Arabic and would disagree with your assumption that the translations are incorrect. Either way, You are not going to convince me that this Hamas Mickey mouse character is not calling for

The jews (Zionists) to leave Palestine

The Americans (invaders) to get out of the region

The nations would then become Islamic.

There is even a hint of world-wide islamic rule.

The tool? An AK-47.

You also cannot convince me that there is not a hostility towards western culture in some corners of the islamic world based on, I would argue, a stereotype of our culture as being immoral, excessive, and permissive. I think that groups like hamas and al-qaeda exploit this fear to their own ends.

My original point was, and is, still this:

It is ironic that a group that has used a fear of western culture as a means convincing people that their message is true would then turn around and use a symbol of that culture to deliver their message.

Nothing racist here.

I am probably less informed than you are--I get that. But there are many people who are more informed than you are who would agree with me. Until Hamas stops pushing the notion of Isreal being taken off the map, I think I will remain skeptical of its motives.

 

[Sarangel]

Kindly remember to play nice with each other... If you cannot separate the topic from the poster, I'll close the thread.

Sarangel

 

[MasterShake]

Kindly remember to play nice with each other... If you cannot separate the topic from the poster, I'll close the thread.

Sarangel