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GRAND OPENING - GRAND CLOSING (Florida)

I really wish that more of what is being mandated would be based on what we've learned. Yes, masks and physical distancing works to control the spread, INDOORS. We have known since before it even started to be a problem in the US that it is not being spread OUTSIDE where there is plenty of ventilation. The other thing we need to remember is, even after all this time, only about 1%-2% of the population has tested positive. Yes, that means that this is far from over, but also that means you can stop freaking out and being the COVID cop every time someone's nose pops out from behind a mask. I've got no problem wearing a mask full time, indoors and out in a place like Disney where they are going above and beyond just to be open, but the mask shaming anywhere else has just brought out the worst in society. And yes, I think the uneven, sometimes nonsensical rules and mandates (and sometimes lack thereof) have a lot to do with that.
Our mandate is masks required outside when social distancing is unable to be maintained but also includes outdoor dining when you're not actively eating/drinking or getting up from the table. I agree with that. I don't think you need one walking on a trail unless everyone is all so tight together (which shouldn't be happening anyways). Or if you're at something outside but able to adequately distance yourself from someone. Or even walking in the parking lot as I've seen people state you must do because I've yet to be that close to someone in a parking lot itself (up by the entrance of a store yes but not the parking lot).

I do think there is mask shaming but in many times I think it's the delivery because sometimes it's really just the people geniuninely concerned about public safety and they aren't the overboard kind of people. I live in the Midwest and for me we say "ope sorry" when it's the other person's fault for running into us haha that kind of thing plays into how I interact with people face to face when it comes to this kind of stuff so you'll be less likely to see me taking some video or photo and blasting it all over social media or calling people names or things like that (I really dislike the covidiot term for instance). Not a con against other people but that is just how I am.

Honestly though? Personally proper mask wearing is kind of my thing I get irritated about. I appreciate the effort but wearing a mask, especially a waiter/waitress/retail worker/etc who is in constant contact with everyone having that mask under their nose is problematic. Covering your nose is actually very important in fact. Here's what a recent study showed results on.

"..found the cells that line the nose were significantly more likely to become infected and shed virus compared to the throat or lungs. That means, every time a person exhales through their nose, they are likely generating a higher concentration of infectious aerosol than if they were simply breathing from their mouth. It also means, in order to block that infectious cloud from escaping to infect other people, it's just as important to cover your nose with a mask." https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30675-9 To me this kind of seemed logical but I think most of the talk has centered around covering your mouth for coughing and talking loud so people don't see as much the issue with bringing a mask down under your nose (especially because well that makes it easier to breath in something that is making it harder to breathe) but I always thought well the nose, especially if you or someone else sneezes (which IIRC sneezing can actually carry particles in the air further than the average cough..don't quote me on that but I feel like I remember reading that).

So I may be more about "we need to wear masks properly" but I'm not approaching it in a way I've seen other people do it throughout the months and many threads on this topic (at least I hope I'm not being that way and sincerely apologize if I have done that to someone).

I don't disagree with mandating things based on what we've learned. If stay at home orders are issued in the future it's my hope that we formulate them based on the increased knowledge we have.
 
According to the CDC, COVID 19 will end in the top ten causes of death in 2020. They won't know exactly where until we finish the year, but based on data from 2018, it looks like it'll come in around #3. I can't catch heart disease or cancer from other people. But I can catch this virus. And I also may end up with long term health implications from the virus. To me, that's pretty darned serious. I'm keeping everything in perspective.

  1. Heart disease (655,381)
  2. Cancer (599,274)
  3. Unintentional injury (167,127)
  4. Chronic lower respiratory disease (159,486)
  5. Stroke (147,810)
  6. Alzheimer's disease (122,019)
  7. Diabetes (84,946)
  8. Flu and pneumonia (59,120)
  9. Nephritis (51,386)
  10. Suicide (48,344)
think about this.... in the flurry of numbers that I see posted everywhere.... and how people choose to interpret said numbers- what I see missing is a lack of true understanding about what's happening.....see the numbers quoted above for example.(which I agree with FWIW)
My basic example is always an average flu season,which runs about Jan-March. We get an average of 4000 deaths per week in high season...that = 48k-59k deaths., (HIGH SEASON) Nationwide. so what we're looking at (straight up,no playing with stats or numbers) is an uncontrolled situation - we have just hit 150k deaths in 6 months...of our OFF SEASON. (not even counting all the horrible cases and lingering illness with this)
No matter how you slice it,or choose to think about it (# of tests,where it's most prevalent)
WE are in trouble here. When our true 'flu season' hits,and alllll the other illnesses start their usual climb,then what are we going to do?
Covid is going to be at LEAST #3 when all is said and done this year. SO yeah, preventing as much as possible by staying away? good plan.
 
Its not fear most of the time though, its just plain stubbornness.

And just like seat belts eventually became the norm to the point that most people under a certain age just automatically buckle up without thinking about it, eventually (if this thing lasts long enough), people will just mask up when needed. Unfortunately, just like some idiots refused to wear their seatbelt, there will be a LOT of unnecessary deaths because stubborn covidiots refuse to do the right thing.
 
Because no one wears a mask 24 hrs a day. It really isn't that complicated is it?

People may be wearing masks in shops and bars now, but no one is wearing them in restaurants. Who wears a mask when visiting family/friends homes? Probably no one.
You have to wear one inside the restaurant here if you're not actively eating and drinking and if you get up to go to the restroom or to leave you need your mask. Same as when entering; once you sit at your table and are drinking/eating you're fine). That still absolutely leaves time for exposure and overall exposure but people are wearing them in restaurants when they need to be (largely that is seen only the occasional waitstaff having their mask under their nose or I have seen twice under their chin and every now and then from patrons but pretty good compliance all things considered) but that's at least part of the mandate.
 


And/or not wearing them correctly. People touch things, then touch their face as soon as the mask comes off.
This is what bothers me about Disney's policy. Guests are walking around eating and drinking but expected to constantly adjust their mask depending if the are actively chewing or sipping. Gross! Touching the crud on the outside of your covering and directing it to your mouth? It seems counterproductive.🤢
 
I understand reading all of these studies with a scientifically critical eye, but I think doing so, at times, means that you can't see the forest for the trees. There are just so many studies and stories out there now about transmission in the real world. In my area alone, in the last month, we have two indoor parties that took place. One, a high school graduation party, took place indoors and mostly without masks. We're up to 50 infected there. Another, a lifeguard party, took place indoors and mostly without masks, and we're up to 35 infected. A cursory google search of local news in most areas of the country, and you'll find the same.
You would not take my antidotal evidence and weigh it very heavily, as you shouldn’t. I can point to gathering in my area where there has been no transmission. Yet we are still mandated to wear masks. I just don’t believe it is the panacea we are being told it is. I do believe as a society we lose an awful lot not having faces to interact with, and am concerned this is headed to a “new normal”. I have not been convinced it is worth what we are giving up for the gain. Also is our aim to have zero infection. Or was it to flatten the curve so as to not overwhelm our hospitals. There is quite a lot to sort out with this issue. I am trying to have a dialogue with people in an effort for most of us to gain some understanding of the others point of view without demonizing one another.

This is one of the reasons I enjoy our conversations, I gain perspective from you without being personal attacked And I hope the converse is true. Thank you.
 
This is what bothers me about Disney's policy. Guests are walking around eating and drinking but expected to constantly adjust their mask depending if the are actively chewing or sipping. Gross! Touching the crud on the outside of your covering and directing it to your mouth? It seems counterproductive.🤢
You are no longer allowed to walk and eat and drink in the parks. You need to be stationary (whether that is always enforced is a different story but they have adjusted their policy). But yes I agree with you about contamination. We all encounter that unfortunately. It's why I carry 2 masks with me. At least I have a backup plan. I think a good advice for many going into the parks is having multiple masks with them throughout the day especially as you sweat. It's all gross no doubt though to think about it!
 


I can point to gathering in my area where there has been no transmission. Yet we are still mandated to wear masks. .
And how,exactly is this possibly true? Unless said gathering (indoors,large I'm assuming,no masks) you personally know each and every person,and everyone in attendance was thereafter tested (I'd say at least 2-3x in the next couple of weeks to verify) that they weren't an asymptomatic carrier..... and this would ALSO require you to keep careful track of where each partygoer went in the two weeks following,and who they had actual contact with. To check for rates of illness. (think grocery store, home depot,the bank etc)
See, this is where the (most obvious) flaw comes in. Unless you and your pals at the party were constantly testing and retesting to verify transmission or not, then you really DON'T KNOW.
So let's pretend for a minute that you had your party, and 'no one got sick' after. However,b/c you CAN'T do contact tracing for the next two weeks, just ONE (let's say ONLY ONE) of your pals actually has Covid, but is either ignoring some symptoms,or asymptomatic. Then said pal goes about life as usual, not worried about transmission, when in reality he has already exposed your entire party,who may or may not get violently ill,or die. then alllll your guests go about their lives,maskless (bc there's no real danger) and infect others along the way...so maybe 5-10 people die as a direct result. (maybe,who really knows?) Whom you know nothing about.
I realize based on some pp's,that you're here to stir things up. mission accomplished.
 
You would not take my antidotal evidence and weigh it very heavily, as you shouldn’t. I can point to gathering in my area where there has been no transmission. Yet we are still mandated to wear masks. I just don’t believe it is the panacea we are being told it is. I do believe as a society we lose an awful lot not having faces to interact with, and am concerned this is headed to a “new normal”. I have not been convinced it is worth what we are giving up for the gain. Also is our aim to have zero infection. Or was it to flatten the curve so as to not overwhelm our hospitals. There is quite a lot to sort out with this issue. I am trying to have a dialogue with people in an effort for most of us to gain some understanding of the others point of view without demonizing one another.

This is one of the reasons I enjoy our conversations, I gain perspective from you without being personal attacked And I hope the converse is true. Thank you.

Same, I'm always open for a differing opinion.

I understand your point that as a society we are giving up an awful lot in isolating and wearing masks. And yes, the aim was never to have "zero infection" as you say. We were all told to stay home to "slow the spread" and keep our hospitals from being overrun. And that's where we went off the rails. A portion of the country and their leaders were committed to that. Other parts of the country opened up too soon, and were loudly cheered on by the administration for doing so. This is where we really blew it. You can't have an administration that is supposedly leading the fight against the virus simultaneously cheering on another section of the population to open up and get back to work, while a whole lot of us were still in our defensive crouch. For millions of us, that was a true, what in the actual ____ is happening?!?

The administration was over it and onto "V shaped" recoveries that have already turned into a "W" because we're heading back down again. The focus was off the public health fight. And in those weeks, we bifurcated even further as a nation. Into masks vs. no masks. Into our state is doing this, and that state is doing that. Into hydroxycloroquine works, vs.....no it doesn't. Dr Fauci vs the administration. Into "Schools must open!!" vs "Schools can't open!!" On and on and on.

To me, it's just crystal clear that we wouldn't be where we are if we'd just fought the virus from the jump. And at a minimum, we needed great messaging and public education. We didn't get that. We're still getting one message from the public health experts and another from the administration. Personally, I find the situation we're in...well, awful. We can only visit our elderly parents in very short stints outside as two of them are very compromised. We had to cancel a bucket list trip in May for which we've only been able to get our airfare refunded. Not having any idea when we can even plan for travel is really awful. My business has been positively crushed by this, with no real rebound on the horizon. The most devastating thing though, for me, by far, has been our lack of a robust and cohesive national response. I've lost an incredible amount of confidence in the ability of our nation to keep us safe. And that last one isn't going to be recovered anytime soon.
 
Is there a report/number on daily hospital discharges (yes, living) that were diagnosed as Covid?

I don't believe the state report I linked includes that metric but I follow a South Florida reporter who usually does report that number for South Florida hospitals and the good news is that it is improving. This was his tweet on those numbers from yesterday:


As I said, he focuses on the Miami area specifically but he is a good resource. Lee County hospitals have also reported a higher number of discharges than in weeks past which is great!

Unfortunately, it often seems like this virus can take a long time to finally become fatal - look at Herman Cain who just died yesterday or today. He was hospitalized on July 2. Here in MA, we have been at or under 2% positive for new cases for over a month, we had 356 new cases yesterday and we still had 29 deaths reported yesterday. So the death toll lingers even as the cases decline.
 
Maybe not. We are learning to treat the virus much better nowadays. Let's hope for the best.

This is what the CDC said last week:

Interpretation of Cumulative Death Forecasts
  • This week CDC received 26 individual national forecasts.
  • This week’s national ensemble forecast predicts there will likely be between 160,000 and 175,000 total reported COVID-19 deaths by August 15th.
  • National and state-level ensemble forecasts suggest that the number of new deaths over the next 4 weeks will likely exceed the number reported over the last 4 weeks for the US overall, as well as in 25 states and 1 territory. The jurisdictions with the greatest likelihood of a larger number of deaths include Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Nevada, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Texas, and Utah.
 
10 thousand cases a day has to translate into much higher deaths than we’re currently seeing. Soon FL will have mass graves.
It already is. We went from 17-68 deaths a day the week ending the 4th of July to 78-253 this week so far in Florida.
Counting today, that's 2 days this week we're over 200 in Florida. It doesn't seem too long ago we were talking about the bump up over 100.
 

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