Gator grabs 2 year old at Grand Floridian?

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Now that you mention it, it has been eerily calm for such a controversial topic here

Because I think we are all feeling a profound connection to this family. A family that vacationed at a place we all enjoy so much to talk about on a regular basis was struck with immense tragedy.

Plus, I haven't encountered any actual jerks on this page, usually just people who don't choose words well.
 
I think controlling them would be fairly easy if you had a mandate to do so -- if getting the monsters under control...

This is another thing that's pissing me off, referring to the alligators as monsters. They are creatures, not monsters, and their existence by the way predates ours by millions of years. We (humans) have elected to build a theme park on 49 square miles of swampland which previously was their domain. We are the ones who are encroaching, not them. I am by no means a PETA supporter, but comments like this just demonstrate the ignorance which unfortunately is now common place in America. If the creature isn't "cute" then it is a monster and must be destroyed. I never hear bears referred to as monsters, and my understanding is they also attack people. Ditto for hippos, mountain lions, etc. So why are the gators referred to as such? Because they are reptiles? Whatever the reason, I'm sure it's not a good one.

Bottom line is, these creatures have no malicious intent behind their action, just like any other creature (excepting humans). They mate, they hunt for food to sustain themselves, they look for shelter, and their actions are driven by such. It's not like this gator was swimming through the lagoon and thinking, "hey, look at that little two year old, I'm gonna go kill him just because and laugh at the results." It was likely hungry, saw something which resembled a small creature, and did what animals do. Calling it a monster for doing so is attributing malicious intentions to it's actions which neither it, nor any other animal that hunts like bears or lions, can possibly have, and it needs to stop.
 
I have been refraining from commenting on this incident because it is one of the most horrifying things I can imagine. My utmost sympathy goes to the family. While I am trying to not think too much about this incident, one thought that keeps popping in my head is; why can't Disney eliminate alligators from their property? The unfortunate reality to that question is that they could eliminate alligators if they wanted to and / or where allowed to. The technology and methods are available to control wildlife populations in designated environments. The real issue is that Disney would likely be painted as an evil corporate giant bent on destroying the planet by animal rights activist and environmental wackos. Disney's tries to remove aggressive gators and other problematic wildlife but their efforts are hampered by political correctness. Too many people are trying to convince everyone that this was just a freak accident that couldn't be avoided. Unfortunately, that is simply not true. Yes, this kind of incident is extremely rare, but as others also point out you still have to be aware of your surroundings. That means the potential for something like this happening has always been there. Disney knew this as well. It's not that they haven't done anything to avoid it, they do try there best; they just don't want to or aren't allowed to eliminate the problem. There is no place for alligators at WDW, (except perhaps on Kilimanjaro Safari). Lets hope some good comes out of this incident and Disney does what it needs to do to eliminate alligators from their property so nothing like this happens again.

Disney is on a swamp so getting rid of them entirely has to be the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard of.
 
This is another thing that's pissing me off, referring to the alligators as monsters. They are creatures, not monsters, and their existence by the way predates ours by millions of years. We (humans) have elected to build a theme park on 49 square miles of swampland which previously was their domain. We are the ones who are encroaching, not them. I am by no means a PETA supporter, but comments like this just demonstrate the ignorance which unfortunately is now common place in America. If the creature isn't "cute" then it is a monster and must be destroyed. I never hear bears referred to as monsters, and my understanding is they also attack people. Ditto for hippos, mountain lions, etc. So why are the gators referred to as such? Because they are reptiles? Whatever the reason, I'm sure it's not a good one.

Bottom line is, these creatures have no malicious intent behind their action, just like any other creature (excepting humans). They mate, they hunt for food to sustain themselves, they look for shelter, and their actions are driven by such. It's not like this gator was swimming through the lagoon and thinking, "hey, look at that little two year old, I'm gonna go kill him just because and laugh at the results." It was likely hungry, saw something which resembled a small creature, and did what animals do. Calling it a monster for doing so is attributing malicious intentions to it's actions which neither it, nor any other animal that hunts like bears or lions, can possibly have, and it needs to stop.

You can argue semantics all you want, and you can call me ignorant all you want. But i grew up in Florida. I was chased by an alligator when I was a kid. In college I've been on canoe's they've rocked, and I've had friends who have had dogs ripped from their leashes as they've walked by. I've seen them go from rarity to novelty to nuisance to real concern. Because, honestly, if one can attack a kid at Disney World, with all the precautions they put in place, then any of Florida's lakes carry the same potential danger, and frankly, I resent this idea that we're supposed to give our lakes over to them.

If you don't want to refer to them as monsters, then refer them as relics. Antiquated leftovers from 13 million years ago. You may resent my demonizing them, but don't try to noble-ize them. They have brains the size of walnuts. They are indestructible by anything in nature once they've made to a certain age, and they aren't smart enough to be afraid. A mountain lion or a bear wouldn't attack a populated shoreline, with sounds and fireworks and movies nearby -- because they are smart enough to avoid people when they can, except when unavoidable. Alligators aren't. They'll attack anything within their grasp if they're hungry. Because their only purpose is to eat and make more alligators. They are not discriminating in what they kill. And they serve no ecological purpose in the areas we're talking about.

You can think them majestic or misunderstood, but what i see is a 7-10 foot creature that will attack and kill anything it thinks it can attack and kill. I see a giant predator who gives birth to up to 90 off spring a year, and the animals that used to control its offspring before they grow are largely gone. And I see a situation in Florida that is quickly becoming untenable.

As for the encroachment argument, you'd be right except for that's what humans do. I'm sure where ever you live, an apex predator once roamed and ate freely -- do you suggest we give the land back to them? Cede your forests or plains to them as you'd have Florida do for the alligators? And besides, the area where WDW exists had been pretty much cleared out by a predator who had the ability to kill them -- humans. By the time Walt bought it -- in the mid 60s -- alligators were bordering on extinct. Then hunting was banned in Florida, and in 73 the things were endangered and in the process took away their only threat -- and they've tripled their population in 30 years (and that's after hunting was re-established). That's amazing. The alligators who are at WDW aren't natives, they've migrated there because there are too damn many of them in the glades and the swamps.

I understand the sentimentality behind your post, but these are not things to have sympathy for, any more than having sympathy for rats carrying bubonic plague. The fact that they are large doesn't make them majestic, it makes them deadly and uncontrollable without extreme measures. It may piss you off that some of us who have actually born consequences to this explosion view them with less sympathy than you do, but trust me, it's earned.
 
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Oh please, now someone is taking offense at calling alligators monsters. I know we are in the PC age, but come on! Plus you clearly are not well versed in how the word applies, or it's full meaning.
 
So watched the 11 pm news in Orlando and they reported it will be up to Disney whether or not they place additional signage or take any other precautions.
 
Disney is on a swamp so getting rid of them entirely has to be the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard of.

Actually it's on 40 square miles of land that used to be forest and wetland, and pasture, not actual swamp, and the land has been reclaimed and reformed into something that is definitely not a swamp, but instead a place where about 20 million people visit each year and supports the country's largest single employer (or something like that).

No matter what they tell you, Central Florida was not just swamp before Disney.
 


Actually it's on 40 square miles of land that used to be forest and wetland, and pasture, not actual swamp, and the land has been reclaimed and reformed into something that is definitely not a swamp, but instead a place where about 20 million people visit each year and supports the country's largest single employer (or something like that).

No matter what they tell you, Central Florida was not just swamp before Disney.
It's around 45 square miles. I'm sure some of it was in fact swamp and I'm sure some of it still is. Disney is constantly buying and selling pieces of the land.

Also the number of guests is probably higher than 20 million.

Yes it is the US's largest single site employer.

Wherever there is a large fresh body of water there is likely to be a gator.
 
Grew up here my entire life and you just learn that Florida is wetland preserves, marsh and swampland. There are things you just don't do. You don't wade in the dark (that's common sense of going to a regular beach because what feeds at night there Sharks) and I am not saying Disney did enough but the parents are equally as responsible because it your job as a parent to know what environment you are taking your children into. And I just find it a bit odd that they had their 4 yr old in the playpen while the two yr old played in the water.
Actually it's on 40 square miles of land that used to be forest and wetland, and pasture, not actual swamp, and the land has been reclaimed and reformed into something that is definitely not a swamp, but instead a place where about 20 million people visit each year and supports the country's largest single employer (or something like that).

No matter what they tell you, Central Florida was not just swamp before Disney.
 
You can argue semantics all you want, and you can call me ignorant all you want. But i grew up in Florida. I was chased by an alligator when I was a kid. In college I've been on canoe's they've rocked, and I've had friends who have had dogs ripped from their leashes as they've walked by. I've seen them go from rarity to novelty to nuisance to real concern. Because, honestly, if one can attack a kid at Disney World, with all the precautions they put in place, then any of Florida's lakes carry the same potential danger, and frankl.y, I resent this idea that we're supposed to give our lakes over to them

If you don't want to refer to them as monsters, then refer them as relics. Antiquated leftovers from 13 million years ago. You may resent my demonizing them, but don't try to noble-ize them. They have brains the size of walnuts. They are indestructible by anything in nature once they've made to a certain age, and they aren't smart enough to be afraid. A mountain lion or a bear wouldn't attack a populated shoreline, with sounds and fireworks and movies nearby -- because they are smart enough to avoid people when they can, except when unavoidable. Alligators aren't. They'll attack anything within their grasp if they're hungry. Because they're only purpose is to eat and make more alligators. They are not discriminating in what they kill. And they serve no ecological purpose in the areas we're talking about.

You can think them majestic or misunderstood, but what i see is a 7-10 foot creature that will attack and kill anything it thinks it can attack and kill. I see a giant predator who gives birth to up to 90 off spring a year, and the animals that used to control its offspring before they grow are largely gone. And I see a situation in Florida that is quickly becoming untenable.

As for the encroachment argument, you'd be right except for that's what humans do. I'm sure where ever you live, an apex predator once roamed and ate freely -- do you suggest we give the land back to them? Cede your forests or plains to them as you'd have Florida do for the alligators? And besides, the area where WDW exists had been pretty much cleared out by a predator who had the ability to kill them -- humans. By the time Walt bought it -- in the mid 60s -- alligators were bordering on extinct. Then hunting was banned in Florida, and in 73 the things were endangered and in the process took away their only threat -- and they've tripled their population in 30 years (and that's after hunting was re-established). That's amazing. The alligators who are at WDW aren't natives, they've migrated there because there are too damn many of them in the glades and the swamps.

I understand the sentimentality behind your post, but these are not things to have sympathy for, any more than having sympathy for rats carrying bubonic plague. The fact that they are large doesn't make them majestic, it makes them deadly and uncontrollable without extreme measures. It may piss you off that some of us who have actually born consequences to this explosion view them with less sympathy than you do, but trust me, it's earned.

I was not trying to "nobleize" them, or call them majestic. They are simply creatures, which are trying to survive and procreate. You acknowledge this, saying that their only purpose is to eat and make more alligators. I agree. What I fail to understand is how that makes them different than any other animal. The purpose of any creature, ultimately, is to survive long enough to procreate. So if that is the qualification for terming them "monsters", then that means that all animals are "monsters", because all animals have the same purpose. The same things driving alligators to eat and procreate also drive other creatures. So yeah, I'm guessing it's more about the fact that gators aren't "cute" than it is about them truly being different from other predators like bears or lions.

And I said nothing about "giving land back", whatever that means. We have this arrogance, this sense of entitlement, ("I resent this idea that we're supposed to give our lakes over to them" - who said they were YOUR lakes to begin with?) that because we are human, that any land we choose is ours and that we should be free from consequences when we encroach. By all means, live where you want, but be prepared to deal with the consequences of choosing to live where you do. If I set up shop in the jungles of Africa, should I expect to be able to destroy gorillas because they are "monsters" which pose a threat to me? Or should I recognize that I am sharing space with them and modify my expectations accordingly?

So if it's sentimental for me to be against demonizing creatures for acting, well, like creatures, then I guess I'm sentimental.
 
Oh please, now someone is taking offense at calling alligators monsters. I know we are in the PC age, but come on! Plus you clearly are not well versed in how the word applies, or it's full meaning.

The issue is terming them monsters when other predators are not labeled as such, even though they also attack humans, sometimes far more frequently than gators. If a bear or mountain lion or some other large predator somehow wandered onto Fort Wilderness resort and ended up killing a child, would people be calling all bears or mountain lions monsters? I think not. My point was, in the end the alligator was being an alligator. It was hunting for food. It was not behaving differently than we would expect for any other predator. And yet, it is a "monster", a word which connotatively denotes either abnormal behavior or malicious intent, neither of which are true here.
 
How on Earth do you think that Disney did not do their part? How many gators were removed last year? How about how many were removed last week? They have captured 5 alligators in an are that can support many many more than that. I'm talking dozens, if not hundreds. That tells me, they ARE and have been doing their part for the better part of 40 years.

There is one more aspect to the signage thing that hasn't been brought up. There is a percentage of the population that would see a sign warning of alligators and go looking for them. I know this first hand as I have seen some of my less than sensible friends do just such a thing. In fact, Florida had to pass laws fining people for molesting alligators. So, it is a double edged sword. Do you run the risk of enticing some to go looking for said alligators? (Like say teens who are bored or are trying to one up their friends). Or do you quietly patrol and remove any that may become a risk when you find them?

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I know that people go to great lengths to defend Disney at all costs, but I would have thought that this was ONE clear Instance that they could/should have done more and that people would have agreed. Seems VERY obvious to me, that no decent parent would knowingly let there toddler play somewhere that such a warning was present.


They could of did more !! People and alligators just don't go together. Especially people who live north of FL. Or from other country's
 
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I'm just going off the alligator facts in the CNN article. It's not a common thing for gators to attack far off the shoreline. It's definitely possible but I don't understand people saying you should not be allowed on beaches.

Honestly man, give it up. All scientific evidence and peer reviewed journals are on your side, but some people think they know more than experts who have dedicated careers to a field. I'm giving up on this thread for this reason. You can't argue with people who refuse to listen to facts.
 
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I think this thread needs to be shut down. This is very terrible for the family. Everyone should just offer their sympathies and prayers and that's it. I can't believe how callous some people can be, especially when hiding behind the anonymity of the internet. A small child lost his life and the parents will never be the same. My heart aches for them.

So you advocate the suppression of thought and wisdom?

Because that's what you're saying...

When something bad happens...it would be a nice change of pace if there was more "thought" and less "prayer"

This is a cautionary tale that shouldn't be forgotten...just like the developments in the nightclub story with the wife...

This has been largely respectful. But we shouldn't apologize for conversation. Especially if the alternative is tissues then back to status quo after dinner
 
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Honestly man, give it up. All scientific evidence and peer reviewed journals are on your side, but some people think they know more than experts who have dedicated careers to a field. I'm giving up on this thread for this reason. You can't argue with people who refuse to listen to facts.

I pretty much never comment on here (my last one was in 2013) and prefer to just read, but I'm with you. There's a lot of reactionary replies in this thread that are choosing to ignore the science of things. This thread should just be locked as nothing good appears to be resulting from it now outside of arguments. There isn't any "wisdom" happening in here, just rehashing of the same arguments because people are being blind armchair comment warriors.

Stop acting like children, step back, and take a deep breath before posting on here some of you.
 
I thought I read that Disney used to have nets to prevent the alligators from reaching the shoreline when it allowed swimming. Could they do the same thing on the beaches and continue to prohibit swimming?
 
You can argue semantics all you want, and you can call me ignorant all you want. But i grew up in Florida. I was chased by an alligator when I was a kid. In college I've been on canoe's they've rocked, and I've had friends who have had dogs ripped from their leashes as they've walked by. I've seen them go from rarity to novelty to nuisance to real concern. Because, honestly, if one can attack a kid at Disney World, with all the precautions they put in place, then any of Florida's lakes carry the same potential danger, and frankly, I resent this idea that we're supposed to give our lakes over to them.

If you don't want to refer to them as monsters, then refer them as relics. Antiquated leftovers from 13 million years ago. You may resent my demonizing them, but don't try to noble-ize them. They have brains the size of walnuts. They are indestructible by anything in nature once they've made to a certain age, and they aren't smart enough to be afraid. A mountain lion or a bear wouldn't attack a populated shoreline, with sounds and fireworks and movies nearby -- because they are smart enough to avoid people when they can, except when unavoidable. Alligators aren't. They'll attack anything within their grasp if they're hungry. Because their only purpose is to eat and make more alligators. They are not discriminating in what they kill. And they serve no ecological purpose in the areas we're talking about.

You can think them majestic or misunderstood, but what i see is a 7-10 foot creature that will attack and kill anything it thinks it can attack and kill. I see a giant predator who gives birth to up to 90 off spring a year, and the animals that used to control its offspring before they grow are largely gone. And I see a situation in Florida that is quickly becoming untenable.

As for the encroachment argument, you'd be right except for that's what humans do. I'm sure where ever you live, an apex predator once roamed and ate freely -- do you suggest we give the land back to them? Cede your forests or plains to them as you'd have Florida do for the alligators? And besides, the area where WDW exists had been pretty much cleared out by a predator who had the ability to kill them -- humans. By the time Walt bought it -- in the mid 60s -- alligators were bordering on extinct. Then hunting was banned in Florida, and in 73 the things were endangered and in the process took away their only threat -- and they've tripled their population in 30 years (and that's after hunting was re-established). That's amazing. The alligators who are at WDW aren't natives, they've migrated there because there are too damn many of them in the glades and the swamps.

I understand the sentimentality behind your post, but these are not things to have sympathy for, any more than having sympathy for rats carrying bubonic plague. The fact that they are large doesn't make them majestic, it makes them deadly and uncontrollable without extreme measures. It may piss you off that some of us who have actually born consequences to this explosion view them with less sympathy than you do, but trust me, it's earned.

The biggest thing you forget to mention is that we as human beings are also part of the ecological system of the planet and central Florida. We are the apex predators and are the only species that has the ability to control our environment. Alligators attacks happen in places like WDW because we allow them to happen. The reality is no one believed a tragedy like this would ever happen at WDW. Everyone knew it was a possibility; but, for entirely political reasons, people chose not to eliminate the danger. That is a shame. Merely posting signs and telling people to be careful is not the answer. Disney can take stronger actions to ensure a tragedy like this never happens again in the happiest place on earth.
 
Too many posts I can quote, so I'm just going to put the information here, and y'all can sort out who wants to read it.
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http://myfwc.com/wildlifehabitats/managed/alligator/faqs/

Florida has a healthy and stable alligator population. We have about 1.3 million alligators in Florida. Alligators live in all 67 counties, and they inhabit all wild areas of Florida that can support them. The removal of nuisance alligators does not have a significant impact on our state's alligator population.

Relocated alligators often try to return to their capture site. They can create problems for people or other alligators along the way. If an alligator successfully returns, capturing it again would be necessary and likely more difficult the second time.

To avoid creating a problem at the release site, nuisance alligators would need to be relocated to remote areas where they would not encounter people. These remote areas already have healthy alligator populations, and the ones that already live there have established social structures. The introduction of a new alligator to these areas would likely cause fighting, possibly resulting in the death of a resident alligator or the introduced alligator
.
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http://myfwc.com/conservation/freshwater/wetland-habitat/

lorida lost more than 260,000 acres of freshwater, emergent wetlands during 1985-1996, and the rate of loss of this wetland type more than doubled as compared to the rate during the 1970's-1980's period. Wetlands, particularly freshwater emergent wetlands, are essential for waterfowl and other wildlife, yet losses continue. Since Florida became a state, total wetland area has decreased by approximately 44%.

Wetland habitat in wintering areas such as Florida is important in the overall annual cycle ofmigratory waterfowl. Habitat conditions during this non-breeding period affect waterfowl survival and reproduction in subsequent years. Ducks must maintain or improve their body condition during winter to avoid mortality during spring migration and to meet the physiological demands of the nesting season (i.e., egg laying, incubation). The FWC's waterfowl staff devotes considerable resources to monitoring and managing these migrant birds and providing quality habitat for them in Florida.

Managing wetland habitat is critical to providing the greatest quantity and highest quality of habitat possible to support Florida's waterfowl and other wetland-dependent wildlife. Without a large habitat base that includes breeding, migration, and wintering areas, waterfowl populations will decline despite any attempt to restrict sport harvest. Wetland habitat management has importance beyond its value to waterfowl by benefiting many other Florida plant and wildlife specie
s.

The FWC provides technical assistance on wetland conservation and management issues around the state. We work with many agencies, organizations, and private landowners to cooperatively manage wetlands. Unfortunately, not all technical assistance produces a tangible increase in waterfowl habitat, but our input does cause the welfare of wetlands and waterfowl to be considered when resource management decisions are made. The FWC manages several wetland areas with a focus on providing waterfowl habitat.

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http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/uw230

The key to staying safe is being alert to the possibility of alligators being present. Never feed gators or swim or wade in waters where large alligators are known or likely to occur, especially at dusk or night (when they naturally feed). It is illegal to feed alligators. When humans feed alligators, it causes the alligators to lose their natural fear of humans and to associate humans with food. It doesn't matter if people feed them human-food like marshmallows or throw them fish guts when cleaning fish, it's all bad. It changes the alligator's behavior.

Normally, alligators avoid humans, but alligators that have been fed by humans will move toward humans and can become aggressive. Alligators that have been fed by humans are dangerous and should be reported to the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission.

Its very important to keep children and pets away from the water's edge wherever alligators are likely to be present. Do not allow dogs to swim or explore waters that are known to have alligators because dogs look like prey to alligators. There are far more alligator attacks on dogs than on humans. An alligator's prey selection seems based mostly on size of the potential prey animal, not so much on a keen recognition of specific animals as prey or non-prey.

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https://www.reference.com/pets-animals/food-chain-american-alligator-2b07526ac7c4da5d

Fish and turtles are the most important prey for most alligators, but they are not fussy eaters. Other common prey species include snakes, frogs, toads, salamanders, birds, lizards, beavers, raccoons, nutria, rats, crustaceans, mollusks, insects and smaller alligators. Young alligators feed on smaller prey, including insects, frogs and fish. Alligators of all ages adapt to local food sources, but they are strictly carnivorous and do not eat vegetation.

Wading birds, snakes, large fish, turtles, raccoons, foxes and larger alligators hunt young alligators. As they grow, young alligators add more and larger prey to their list of acceptable food. Concurrently, alligators fear fewer predators as they grow.

Alligators are an important part of freshwater ecosystems as they help to maintain balance among the populations of small animals. Additionally, turtles and some other animals deposit their eggs in alligator nest
 
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