Florida Commission - Disney Policy Violates Law

[eXo]

As stated earlier, this commission can say whatever they want. Everyone so far has been very reasonable, and it appears the consensus on this board is that everyone gets to ride, yet everyone also gets to wait. I also agree with an above poster that if there is a special disability that precludes waiting or something means the person *needs* to be able to just go from ride to ride without ever having to wait for anything, then I would say two things. One, the world just doesn't work that way. There is no where in the world that caters to a disability that requires one never having to wait. Two, it does fall on the caretaker as their burden to deal with this. Showing up at the gates of Disney with a person whom you believe requires different treatment compared to 99.9% of the rest of the world is a pretty far out expectation. If someone with this expectation is unwilling to go through a brief process of identifying the disability with a 3rd party and then presenting the required documentation to Disney, then I'd say they sound quite entitled.

It's worth noting that the current FastPass system breaks down when you insert people into the ride out of order. It is a data machine that is designed to fit X people into Y slots while accommodating the predicted number of Z people who will arrive. It is a system that is constantly being tweaked to minimize wait times while dispersing crowds equally. Imagine for a moment that a bus a folks arrive who have whatever disability we are talking about that makes waiting for a specific time super inconvenient. You aren't inserting a handful of people, you are inserting a motherload of people into what was, up until this point, a predictable equation. Now the ride comes to a halt as these folks are loaded on. The experience for all folks on the ride (if on a conveyor belt or attached car system) goes down due to the increased loading times which equal spending lots of time stopped in place. All folks with fast passes AFTER this time still show up when scheduled, however there are many more people in front of them (in the fast pass line) than there should have been at this point. To relieve this, the regular line has to be ignored for a bit to free up the fast pass lane. This turns into a situation where those with fast passes complain about the system because they still had to wait even though they reserved the ride. People without fastpasses for the ride complain because all they saw was a bunch of people WITH fastpasses going ahead of them, so they blame the fast pass system for their very long wait. Meanwhile, the real fault lies in the fact that 20-40 people were inserted into what was otherwise a tightly scheduled agenda.

Now for the anecdote. While attending Universal this past October there was a day when three very large groups of disabled folks arrived. Each group was around 40-50 people, with color coded t-shirts, and real big smiles. It was great to see these folks out and having the chance to enjoy themselves. Well, until you were in line and you saw them coming towards you. The three groups split up, and whenever one of the groups arrived at a ride, it pretty much shut it down for the next 30-60 minutes. No other people were allowed to board until the group was boarded. Due to the number of wheelchairs, the normal queues weren't even an option, so they were generally brought up the exit ramp and loaded that way. Which meant you couldn't plan your day around them, because you had no idea when they would arrive since they weren't in the normal lines. Even if you had purchased Universal's very expensive express pass (which we did), you still got shut out while this process occurred. What would have been the best way to deal with this? I don't know. But I can say that I would have preferred a series of rolling closures of rides for 30-45 minutes while the tour group was on them over the nasty surprise of waiting 45 minutes to ride the Hogwarts Express and then seeing all three tour groups come and realizing that the next non-member of this group wasn't going to be boarding for ANOTHER 45 minutes. My spouse and I just got out of line, walked out the gate, walked to IOA, walked back to hogwarts, and after doing all of that STILL only half their group had arrived at the next station. At least at universal it only gummed things up for an hour or so for each ride. Had they been working on a scheduling system like Disney... well, it gets exponentially worse. And I guarantee you that the Fast Pass + system is what caused the policy change.

 

[Cormoran]

I personally like the new system. It works great for most kids with cognitive delays, including mine. Trust me, you do NOT want to be waiting in line with our kids! However, for a certain subset of guests, this system is pure torture.

I certainly hope they would not return to the old system. However, this one-size-fits-all model is not the best either. There are simple steps that could make the experience of visiting the parks much more feasible for those guests who cannot function with the current system. Disney says that additional accommodations can be made, but they are not often granted, and there is no process to qualify. Most of these parents would be more than happy to provide documentation--just tell them what they need to do. The number of guests who need additional accommodations is tiny, but the impact on the families is immeasurable. Done right, other guests would never notice a difference, except for maybe witnessing fewer of our children melting down.

We are close to a great system for all children to experience the magic, it just needs a few tweaks.

I'm not trying to be smart or snarky, but can you tell me who would find this tortuous and why? Also, what would you suggest to accommodate these situations? I'd really like to understand the issues.

 

[mrsksomeday]

Most of these parents would be more than happy to provide documentation--just tell them what they need to do.

Documentation won't work for many reasons:

- The Cast Member you are dealing with probably doesn't have a medical background therefore they would have no idea what you would need based on a diagnosis. The DAS is needs based not diagnosis based.

- The ADA forbids anyone asking for documentation.

- Anyone with a printer could falsify documents too easily.

I agree the DAS program needs tweaked. There are some things that could be changed to make things better. I also think better planning by the families such as social stories, touring plans, and using the FastPass+ system to their advantage could help as well.

Disney provides equal access to the parks, that is really all they are required to do. Can the lawyer for that lawsuit show where "equal enjoyment" is written in the ADA law. Sadly I don't think so.

 

[kollegekreed]

Not my intention to upset anyone (I read 18 pages over on the other site and it seems like there are a whole lotta trolls over there) but I have an honest question:

Say there were 100,000 people in the park. 10,000 of them showed up one day with some sort of claimed disability (a term I use because under the ADA disability doesnt need to be proved). If the point of the law is to require "equal access under the law", how do people think that by allowing the 10,000 to cut t the front of the line without the new system (using the old system) is fair to the other 90,000 people? Doesnt it inherently discriminate against the healthy people and still result in INEQUAL access to the park, and in fact a higher level of access for the disabled guest?

 

[theotherlostprincess]

Not my intention to upset anyone (I read 18 pages over on the other site and it seems like there are a whole lotta trolls over there) but I have an honest question:

Say there were 100,000 people in the park. 10,000 of them showed up one day with some sort of claimed disability (a term I use because under the ADA disability doesnt need to be proved). If the point of the law is to require "equal access under the law", how do people think that by allowing the 10,000 to cut t the front of the line without the new system (using the old system) is fair to the other 90,000 people? Doesnt it inherently discriminate against the healthy people and still result in INEQUAL access to the park, and in fact a higher level of access for the disabled guest?

Ive asked this exact question before. Now my dad was disabled due to multiple back surgeries so im not trying to be rude here since he got the pass through the exits many times (with only one person with him, not 4 or 5) but i said the same thing about discrimination against the healthy people if this situation occurs

 

[pwdebbie]

I'm not trying to be smart or snarky, but can you tell me who would find this tortuous and why? Also, what would you suggest to accommodate these situations? I'd really like to understand the issues.

I can answer this. My husband has neurological issues that you would not be able to see just by looking at him. He cannot stand in a line without becoming dizzy or disoriented. Lines are really hard on him. He does not even stand in a checkout line in the grocery store. He has no stamina issues -- he golfs regularly. But he can even get dizzy just standing and talking to someone. I can tell when it is starting to hit him because he will put his hand on me for stability. At best, he will have a dizzy spell and it will pass. But we can't bank on that, he can get full-blown vertigo and be shot for the rest of the day (or longer). Sometimes his vision will start to go -- either double vision or loss of vision. Also, enclosed spaces (and lines are often enclosed spaces) will have a neurological effect on him where he will become confused to the point where he cannot form words or communicate sensibly. And certain movements (we found out the hard way with Soarin' even though that is mostly visual, and with standing on a bus) will leave him disoriented and weak. (I could not believe how gray he was when we walked out of Soarin' -- first trip, first attraction, I thought the trip was over.) All this thanks to Lyme Disease. That was just his neurological issues; I could go on about his heart, his lungs, his autoimmune system. You would never know he deals with any of this just by looking at him. One time when someone saw him being admitted to an attraction with his GAC, they commented that they wished they had what he had. He just said, "No, you really don't wish you had what I had." I appreciate that Disney makes accommodation, otherwise it would be a waste of time for us to travel there. Hopefully we will have no problem getting a DAS on our next trip, it will be the first trip since the new system started. The GAC was so very much appreciated by us.

 

[Networth]

You can never make all parties happy. This will go to the courts and be decided their.

 

[collcass]

Because there are many types of "disabilities" that are blind (the person appears perfectly healthy, this is a difficult area. I feel for those who suffer due to the new system, but there truly does not seem to be a perfect resolution. To me it does seem TWDC is taking steps to ensure all parties enjoy & haave access to WDW. It would be nearly impossible to cater to every disability

I have a son with T1D. Actually, he became extremely ill during our last family trip to WDW & we nearly lost him during the plane flight home. while we have been back since, we have yet to return as a family because it is frightening to think about all of the different factors. i.e......standing in line when his sugar is high (or low), the insulin in his pump becoming too warm, or actually consuming food in the parks (WDW is extremely accommodating as far as dietary needs, but does a very very poor job (IMO) of providing nutritional, carb counts specifically, at most of their dining locations.

As his parent, it is y job to make sure he is safe and for us that means not taking him to WDW at the moment. Is this the fault of TWDC? Absolutely not. I would be far more comfortable knowing there was a good way to count carbs, but that won't happen so it is our choice as parents. We could bring him and hope that everything is fine. (which is most likely would be), however, For me, it seems a better option to wait and take him later on

All that to say, my thought is WDW does as best as they can to provide the best possible experience for all of their visitors

 

[andy1850]

I have been reading these boards for a long time and just got the urge to speak.

Without going into the details my DS has a rare Genetic Disorder...I know, that means nothing....translated to WDW terms, 1. he cant wait in lines...we have tried it and it was a complete disaster, he was inappropriately making noises, hugin strangers screaming to use the bathroom and a multitude of other things that I am not going to get into....also he has low muscle tone which means he can run around like any other boy....until he cant. Then I have to carry him everywhere. He physically stops. This was not a problem when he was a toddler but he is now 9 and is the height of an 11 yr old. So to accommodate this we get him a wheel chair to push him around so he does not wear out. Well he does not need it to walk to the ride (although as the day goes on, I do carry him to the rides) so we park it in the stroller parking area. Let me tell you, you would not believe the looks I get from people when he steps out of the wheelchair! I have overheard many people make comments about how we rented a wheelchair just to push our kids around in! ( I have to admit that my 5yr old does jump on for a ride at times). My son looks perfectly normal until you get up close and look at him and then he starts to speak. It shocks most people, he has very broken language that most can not understand.

Ok...we used the GAC in the past and it allowed me to see my son Laugh on his own for the first time in his life. We had been to Disney prior to that and rode 2 rides. This allowed my son to experience Disney. With that being said, I think the DAS with Fastpass + is just as good if not better. It allows us to experience the park just like everyone else and he can see all of the magical designs while we wait our turn. I am not sure what everyone is fussed up about. This accommodation is more than generous. It allows my family to truly have a magical experience that Disney intended. The DAS makes it so we don't have to go through the wheelchair line or deal with on the ride.

Now if I could only get people to stop Judging when they see him in and out of the wheelchair.

OK, I have spoke my mind for what it is worth

 

[Dawnlight]

Let's imagine for a moment that Disney decides that it will never be able to make suitable accommodations, so it builds an exact replica of the parks for those with disabilities. What will then happen? Will those with different disabilities be arguing about who should be allowed to the front of the line and who should be accommodated in this way or that?

I see it as no different that the bathroom issue. The handicap accessible stalls are available for use, but not limited to handicap usage- anyone can use those facilities (unlike parking spots, which require a valid tag). Disney is accessible to all and I think that they have gone above and beyond in trying to accommodate the needs of all the visitors.

 

[Teamubr]

Without going into the details my DS has a rare Genetic Disorder...

Your DS sounds very similar to my brother and I agree that the new system seems to be very reasonable for nearly everyone with a disability.

We need more Disney guests that would need to use a DAS to speak up about the value (and fairness) of the new system. I would hate for the policy to be changed dramatically for a very vocal few.

j

 

[Mshheaddoc]

I'm interested in what people think need to be changed. We never used the GAC because we couldn't make it (nor did I really want to go) to WDW with my DS who has autism. But we decided to go in early December over a year ago with my research of lowest crowds. I was so nervous with the recent switch to the DAS right before our trip. I was pleasantly surprised as with FP+ was just being rolled out, as soon as we used one FP+ I loaded another one up plus we had his DAS. It was fantastic. Now would it be great if we could do more than just 3 FP+ a day? Yeah probably, but we made the decision that because of my son's disability that we would find times that would work better for us (low crowds) regardless if we had to pull out of school. I will never expect to go at high peak times and tour the park ride hopping and I think that is unrealistic for most people going at peak times (personal opinion).

I'm not sure how it will pan out now with limited FP+ of only 3 advanced bookings 2 months out, what type of availability will really be there. I feel WDW is pushing you towards structure which is great for our kids who thrive in that environment, but almost pushing you to a rigid structure that allows NO breathing room if it continues to snowball(if that makes sense - you will have to map out your WHOLE entire day in order to get everything done, lowering customer satisfaction, honestly it's already happening). You have to plan everything and when you have added issues of special needs, it is just that much more stress. I'm not sure what else realistically can be done for accommodations and honestly curious what people feel could be changed.

 

[owlhooter]

My DD and DW both suffer from a condition of LoP (Lack of Patience), while not considered a disability, it leads to severe irritability when having to wait for anything and they need instant gratification or they may have a melt down and my life becomes a living hell. Do I get a front of the pass line to that I can experience the park the way other families that have patience do, without that meltdown?

I'm not trying to make light of any disability but by saying kids with autism will melt down if they can't ride a ride that instant seems to be pushing it. The current system which seems a lot like FP+ by the way people are describing it? (You schedule the ride time? Or you scan the card and come back at your ride time?) With that the kids can go ride something else that doesn't have a long wait time, or look at other things in the park. It almost would seem to me that the parents of the kids having the melt down are setting the expectations wrong by telling them something to the affect of "we are going to ride Peter Pan now" and when the kid doesn't get it NOW it starts the meltdown. How these parents avoided a meltdown telling the kid that they were going to Disney and then not going that second seems beyond me if this is the case that the kid really does need instant gratification. If the parents just didn't tell the kid they were going to Disney until they actually went to Disney knowing they would avoid a meltdown that way, then why couldn't they do the same to the rides when in the park? Just don't tell the kid you are going to be riding it until you actually are.

If there is something I'm missing here where waiting outside of the standby queue while doing something else for your ride time is an issue or torture for someone, please do let me know. Personally I'd like that system for everyone, you queue up for the ride you want at whatever the current wait time is and come back when that wait time is up to ride the ride. Eliminate the lines all together and have it all based on that type of system. Scheduling it all would probably be a nightmare and you'd need a lot more space and entertainment in the parks with all those people not standing in a line.

 

[Bolt4Life17]

From my own experience:

We went in September 2013, old rule where disabled gets everyone to the front. It felt like half the park was in scooters. Even saw parents pushing around their two kids in one wheelchair, but as soon as needed, they both energetically hopped out.

Go again September 2014, barely any scooter people compared to before. The ones who were in them really needed them.

It's going to be bad if Disney goes back to letting all the "disabled" guests go to the front with the whole party. Right now, the people that really do have disabilities are the ones who are using the system. No longer people scamming the system.

 

[Alice Royal]

My DD and DW both suffer from a condition of LoP (Lack of Patience), while not considered a disability, it leads to severe irritability when having to wait for anything and they need instant gratification or they may have a melt down and my life becomes a living hell. Do I get a front of the pass line to that I can experience the park the way other families that have patience do, without that meltdown?

I'm not trying to make light of any disability but by saying kids with autism will melt down if they can't ride a ride that instant seems to be pushing it. The current system which seems a lot like FP+ by the way people are describing it? (You schedule the ride time? Or you scan the card and come back at your ride time?) With that the kids can go ride something else that doesn't have a long wait time, or look at other things in the park. It almost would seem to me that the parents of the kids having the melt down are setting the expectations wrong by telling them something to the affect of "we are going to ride Peter Pan now" and when the kid doesn't get it NOW it starts the meltdown. How these parents avoided a meltdown telling the kid that they were going to Disney and then not going that second seems beyond me if this is the case that the kid really does need instant gratification. If the parents just didn't tell the kid they were going to Disney until they actually went to Disney knowing they would avoid a meltdown that way, then why couldn't they do the same to the rides when in the park? Just don't tell the kid you are going to be riding it until you actually are.

If there is something I'm missing here where waiting outside of the standby queue while doing something else for your ride time is an issue or torture for someone, please do let me know. Personally I'd like that system for everyone, you queue up for the ride you want at whatever the current wait time is and come back when that wait time is up to ride the ride. Eliminate the lines all together and have it all based on that type of system. Scheduling it all would probably be a nightmare and you'd need a lot more space and entertainment in the parks with all those people not standing in a line.

You don't understand what 'meltdown' or 'overload' entails, then. As I've said earlier I am autistic and am fine with DAS, but 'meltdowns' are not a result of lack of instant gratification. They result from combinations of sensory input that overload the highly sensitive brains of those with autism. There are some people who could experience sensory overload from standing in a line for even a few minutes. Or even by walking through the line at all. I'm not saying they should instantly deserve a system like GAC, or that DAS can't reasonably meet the needs of most people who have these conditions...but your post was not nice.

 

[mrsksomeday]

The only people that got and still get "Front of the Line access" is Make a Wish and other organizations like it. The GAC would sometimes - not always allow the guest to be let into the fast pass line. That was not FRONT of line access. I get highly annoyed reading that being misstated constantly.

People might have seen my boyfriend, who uses a power wheelchair but has some other issues (hence the use of the GAC/DAS) being let in to the "front of the line"/ fast pass line for Toy Story Mania when the GAC was in use. What one probably didn't see because they were too busy judging was there was a separate line for wheelchairs/mobility disabilities and that line often was backed up because Bill and others in his situation can only use the wheelchair accessible ride vehicle so Cast Members would have other guests bypass us and load even though we had been waiting longer.

With the DAS we get a wait time and come back to enter the Fast Pass line. Do we get on with the able bodied people waiting in line in front of us? No... we then have to wait for a wheelchair accessible ride vehicle. Do not judge how long he has been waiting, many people have NO CLUE.

We are thankful for any accommodations he is able to receive.

 

[DDLand]

My DD and DW both suffer from a condition of LoP (Lack of Patience), while not considered a disability, it leads to severe irritability when having to wait for anything and they need instant gratification or they may have a melt down and my life becomes a living hell. Do I get a front of the pass line to that I can experience the park the way other families that have patience do, without that meltdown?

I'm not trying to make light of any disability but by saying kids with autism will melt down if they can't ride a ride that instant seems to be pushing it. The current system which seems a lot like FP+ by the way people are describing it? (You schedule the ride time? Or you scan the card and come back at your ride time?) With that the kids can go ride something else that doesn't have a long wait time, or look at other things in the park. It almost would seem to me that the parents of the kids having the melt down are setting the expectations wrong by telling them something to the affect of "we are going to ride Peter Pan now" and when the kid doesn't get it NOW it starts the meltdown. How these parents avoided a meltdown telling the kid that they were going to Disney and then not going that second seems beyond me if this is the case that the kid really does need instant gratification. If the parents just didn't tell the kid they were going to Disney until they actually went to Disney knowing they would avoid a meltdown that way, then why couldn't they do the same to the rides when in the park? Just don't tell the kid you are going to be riding it until you actually are.

If there is something I'm missing here where waiting outside of the standby queue while doing something else for your ride time is an issue or torture for someone, please do let me know. Personally I'd like that system for everyone, you queue up for the ride you want at whatever the current wait time is and come back when that wait time is up to ride the ride. Eliminate the lines all together and have it all based on that type of system. Scheduling it all would probably be a nightmare and you'd need a lot more space and entertainment in the parks with all those people not standing in a line.

You don't understand... I'm sure all of these people would be happy to wait in a line if there was a quiet, peaceful, and less crowded room to stay in. It has nothing to do with waiting for their turn. It has everything to do with where they're waiting.

That's noticeably why we've seen so many people either suffering or working with those suffering from issues support Disney. It's because the return time system means they wait, but more importantly they don't do the waiting with a couple hundred strangers. Edit: Or standing up/ weaving their way through queues.

That's the idea.

 

[cheryl.UK]

Another example of a 'hidden disability', My DN has chrones. He looks fit and active, he is fit and active, but if he needs the bathroom, he needs it NOW. He has only been to DLP but really can't stand in line, especially the ones that wind round and round in tight spaces. It would take far too long to get out and find a restroom. Believe me, no-one would want to be next to him in a line if he needs to go. We have to laugh about it or we'd cry so we call it the 'bog run' and take it in turns to memorise where all the restrooms are.

 

[Princess Jes]

You don't understand... I'm sure all of these people would be happy to wait in a line if there was a quiet, peaceful, and less crowded room to stay in. It has nothing to do with waiting for their turn. It has everything to do with where they're waiting.

Isn't that the point that owlhooter was getting at though? that you CAN wait in another location rather than in the lines. The people who have brought this case don't even want to do that, which Is ridiculous in my opinion

 

[DDLand]

Isn't that the point that owlhooter was getting at though? that you CAN wait in another location rather than in the lines. The people who have brought this case don't even want to do that, which Is ridiculous in my opinion

You're right, I read the post underneath which skewed my comprehension. Apologies @owlhooter.