FLL airport - Shooting today at 1 pm - 9 wounded

[Pacolovestacos]

If you are in the business of custom cakes, no it's not, it's up to your client.

You are flat out wrong. The bakery can reject a custom design anytime they want.

 

[mummabear]

You are flat out wrong. The bakery can reject a custom design anytime they want.

Again not if the reason is discriminatory

 

[Pacolovestacos]

Again not if the reason is discriminatory

The burden would be on you to prove that. Best of luck with that.

 

[lorimay]

I was in the airport yesterday for the initial shooting incident as well as the following incident not being talked about in the media. 14 of us had just returned from a cruise. We split off from my little sister who was going to fly to Tampa to be with her boyfriend and the rest of us were in Terminal three to fly to Buffalo.
I looked out the window and saw helicopters hovering in place, which prompted us to look at the tv monitor and see that there was a shooting occurring in the airport. Things were calm, people gradually gravitated to the tvs but no announcemnbets were made. While saddened and shocked we saw that the shooter was in custody, and that they felt it was a single incident.
It was at least a few hours later (we were really early for our flight) and my son was napping on my husband, my family were all sitting in a cluster of chairs. I was standing and chatting with them with my back to hallway (we were at the end of the terminal).
I heard the screams first. Turned to see people running frantically towards us, screaming there was a shooter and to get down. I screamed to my husband to put our son on the floor. We went as far under the seat benches as we could and tried to lay on top of the kids. Very briefly after I told my husband I wanted to run. He told us to wait and stood to see if we could, he yelled GO NOW and we along with many other screaming and crying people ran to the door. I pulled a teen girl with us who was screaming for her mom thinking she needed to get out. She did find her mom.
It was at the bottom of the stairs that my mom fell and sprained her ankle. I heard someone screaming and it was my husband picking up my sister in law to keep her from going back up the stairs. Her husband (my brother) was inside with the baby and they had been in the bathroom. We did not find or hear from them for at least 30 minutes. We called my sister in Terminal two. The same thing was simulataneously occurring in her terminal and I was telling her to find something to hide behind that looked bulletproof.. to get out of the open. She had heard shots and they dove for the floor. As I was on the phone with her i heard police run in and tell them all to run.

We waiting on the Tarmac for at least 6 hours that I barely remember. I know people were kind, updates and announcements were non existent but we were given water and eventually told they would be doing controlled detonations and not to be afraid. We were eventually evacuated by SWAT teams. As expected, evacuated 12000 tired and frightened people was not an easy or smooth process. Red Cross Emergency response teams met us at the cruise terminal where we were bussed. From there our large group walked out to main roads to get away from traffic jams and were able to get UBER to a hotel. We got in to the hotel at 2 am.

I lost my wallet and my daughters passport, my house keys, my car keys, all of our medications, my shoe. We have been contacted about where we can go to try and ID our luggage and just got through to the hotline to report the things left behind when we ran. I am amazed that the second incident is not being reported at all. Mass hysteria in multiple terminals at the same time with shots heard not only by my sister but multiple people we've spoken to since.

Regardless.. and here is the most important thing. I am ALIVE. My children are ALIVE. My family is ALIVE. The rest of it doesn't matter. People are mourning their loved ones today and they deserve all the support and love we can send them. My family will need counselling, but we have each other.
Thank you if you made it through all of this. I feel like I need to tell it over and over.

I'm so happy you and your family are safe.
My son works at the airport on the ramp and was in terminal 4, he said after the shooting, they were told it would not affect their terminal to continue unloading his flight. He was carrying up strollers to the bridge area where passengers depart. He said he got up there by the door of the plane and he hears the radio of a customer service person and they are screaming shots fired in terminal 4 get down. He was pulled into the plane and then the door was closed and locked (Thank God). He said he was just in shock thinking what the h*** is going on here. He was in there for quite a while before he was allowed to get off.
I don't know what caused this to happen in every terminal, with people saying shots were fired, but it really caused mass hysteria and so many people were injured because of it (thankfully nothing that took lives).
Our local news showed officer's running into the parking garage and they were reporting a shooter in there as well.
I truly believe the Sheriff when he said there were no other shots fired, there would have been casings found if there were.
My son-in-law was also sent to the airport as part of SWAT for his department, he said they cleared every inch of the terminals and parking lots, no other casings appeared to have been found.
This was a frightening day for our family with 2 family members there.
My son said the same thing you said, "Yes, I'm fine I am alive".
I can't believe this happened again and more innocent lives have been taken.
I pray for the families affected and hope somehow they can find some kind of peace again someday.

God Bless you and you family.

 

[DisAuntie]

How terrifying! Glad you are safe.

ETA: Was there another shooter? I'm confused since I've only heard about 1 person in custody.

No. There was only one shooter.

 

[3 MEN AND A BOAT]

And that's the point, you can't refuse service for discriminatory reasons.

When you go into a professional seti g (which is what this baker has done) then their personal feelings aren't relevant.

Sigh. If you hold yourself out as providing a public accommodation, you must provide it to all people who are willing to pay your price for it. After all, in the 1950's there were churches preaching that it was against their religion to tolerate interracial marriage (seems pretty arcane now, right?). So, if that is the thinking of a church, is it ok for one of their members to have a public business and refuse to provide service to a mixed race couple? How about the KKK (which was premised on supposed religious beliefs that the white race was genetically superior to all others)? If I subscribe to their way of thinking, would it be fine for me to insist that only white people get my services?

The law in this country has been settled since the Civil Rights Act of 1964 about your obligations when you start a business and hold yourself out as providing that business to the public. If your religious beliefs, whatever they may be, preclude you from providing a service to ALL members of the public, then you don't start that business. Period. No one is forcing you to go into a business providing service to the public. But, if you do, then you provide your services/goods to all members of the public. It's pretty simple.

The alternative is ghastly. Seriously. Can I hang a sign in the window and exclude anyone I please? Why not? Gosh. We really are devolving.

And this brings it right back to the original point that this country is divided. People with differing points of view are starting to really dig their heels in. I know I am and it sounds like others are to, on both sides of issues. You want a cake, photos, etc instead of simply moving on and going to the next business they just force someone that claims to disagree with whatever it is, to do it, against their beliefs.

 

[3 MEN AND A BOAT]

Take this website (the DIS) for example. We all know the rules "no politics or religious talk, etc." Should I get a lawyer and force them to allow me to discuss banned topics, no I just go elsewhere for that, because as a private website it's their rules and I respect that. Although I have been known to venture down that road.

 

[pigletto]

I'm so happy you and your family are safe.
My son works at the airport on the ramp and was in terminal 4, he said after the shooting, they were told it would not affect their terminal to continue unloading his flight. He was carrying up strollers to the bridge area where passengers depart. He said he got up there by the door of the plane and he hears the radio of a customer service person and they are screaming shots fired in terminal 4 get down. He was pulled into the plane and then the door was closed and locked (Thank God). He said he was just in shock thinking what the h*** is going on here. He was in there for quite a while before he was allowed to get off.
I don't know what caused this to happen in every terminal, with people saying shots were fired, but it really caused mass hysteria and so many people were injured because of it (thankfully nothing that took lives).
Our local news showed officer's running into the parking garage and they were reporting a shooter in there as well.
I truly believe the Sheriff when he said there were no other shots fired, there would have been casings found if there were.
My son-in-law was also sent to the airport as part of SWAT for his department, he said they cleared every inch of the terminals and parking lots, no other casings appeared to have been found.
This was a frightening day for our family with 2 family members there.
My son said the same thing you said, "Yes, I'm fine I am alive".
I can't believe this happened again and more innocent lives have been taken.
I pray for the families affected and hope somehow they can find some kind of peace again someday.

God Bless you and you family.

Thank you so much for your account. We have heard that warning shots were fired by security who were panicked when military entered without id (My brother has a friend in the FAA). The working theory is that it was a knee jerk panicked reaction but the additional shots caused a mass domino effect of terror. I don't think we will ever know for sure, because I don't think the airport/authorities want to report that incident if it occurred.

My brother travelling with us is a psychiatrist, and made a valid point. Whether there was a second shooter or not, we were TOLD there was, and immediately thought this was a terrorist plot. I remember thinking.. they are going to be everywhere, nowhere is safe. That's trauma. It's trauma for your sons, and all of us who ran for our lives. My brother was in the bathroom with his 18 month old and the men hiding in the bathroom were taking the tools off the janitors cart for weapons and making a plan. I saw a 15 year old girl holding a fire extinguisher. I asked her why she had it on the tarmac and she said she grabbed it as a weapon to protect herself. It will be a long time for people to recover. I just saw a man in the elevator that shook when he told us where he was and what he heard. He also heard shots in Terminal 2 with his own ears. Shots were fired.

And at the end of it all, we are alive, when many aren't and for that I feel grateful and so sad for other families.

 

[LisaR]

Thank you so much for your account. We have heard that warning shots were fired by security who were panicked when military entered without id (My brother has a friend in the FAA). The working theory is that it was a knee jerk panicked reaction but the additional shots caused a mass domino effect of terror. I don't think we will ever know for sure, because I don't think the airport/authorities want to report that incident if it occurred.

My brother travelling with us is a psychiatrist, and made a valid point. Whether there was a second shooter or not, we were TOLD there was, and immediately thought this was a terrorist plot. I remember thinking.. they are going to be everywhere, nowhere is safe. That's trauma. It's trauma for your sons, and all of us who ran for our lives. My brother was in the bathroom with his 18 month old and the men hiding in the bathroom were taking the tools off the janitors cart for weapons and making a plan. I saw a 15 year old girl holding a fire extinguisher. I asked her why she had it on the tarmac and she said she grabbed it as a weapon to protect herself. It will be a long time for people to recover. I just saw a man in the elevator that shook when he told us where he was and what he heard. He also heard shots in Terminal 2 with his own ears. Shots were fired.

And at the end of it all, we are alive, when many aren't and for that I feel grateful and so sad for other families.

How incredibly scary! I can't even imagine. And you're right, the trauma you experienced is still trauma whether there were gun shots heard or not.

I can't help but thinking about my 86 year old mom who flies alone to our place for the winter and back up again on her own. She uses a wheelchair and could never have gotten herself out of that terminal during the chaos. I think the stress alone would have caused her to have a heart attack. Now I am thinking I should get a pass and wait with her in the terminal until she departs. I am not sure I could really do much for her since she isn't very mobile, but the thought of her sitting there alone and not being able to move while everyone was running for safety is too much for me to imagine.

 

[Zbornak]

I was in the airport yesterday for the initial shooting incident as well as the following incident not being talked about in the media. 14 of us had just returned from a cruise. We split off from my little sister who was going to fly to Tampa to be with her boyfriend and the rest of us were in Terminal three to fly to Buffalo.
I looked out the window and saw helicopters hovering in place, which prompted us to look at the tv monitor and see that there was a shooting occurring in the airport. Things were calm, people gradually gravitated to the tvs but no announcemnbets were made. While saddened and shocked we saw that the shooter was in custody, and that they felt it was a single incident.
It was at least a few hours later (we were really early for our flight) and my son was napping on my husband, my family were all sitting in a cluster of chairs. I was standing and chatting with them with my back to hallway (we were at the end of the terminal).
I heard the screams first. Turned to see people running frantically towards us, screaming there was a shooter and to get down. I screamed to my husband to put our son on the floor. We went as far under the seat benches as we could and tried to lay on top of the kids. Very briefly after I told my husband I wanted to run. He told us to wait and stood to see if we could, he yelled GO NOW and we along with many other screaming and crying people ran to the door. I pulled a teen girl with us who was screaming for her mom thinking she needed to get out. She did find her mom.
It was at the bottom of the stairs that my mom fell and sprained her ankle. I heard someone screaming and it was my husband picking up my sister in law to keep her from going back up the stairs. Her husband (my brother) was inside with the baby and they had been in the bathroom. We did not find or hear from them for at least 30 minutes. We called my sister in Terminal two. The same thing was simulataneously occurring in her terminal and I was telling her to find something to hide behind that looked bulletproof.. to get out of the open. She had heard shots and they dove for the floor. As I was on the phone with her i heard police run in and tell them all to run.

We waiting on the Tarmac for at least 6 hours that I barely remember. I know people were kind, updates and announcements were non existent but we were given water and eventually told they would be doing controlled detonations and not to be afraid. We were eventually evacuated by SWAT teams. As expected, evacuated 12000 tired and frightened people was not an easy or smooth process. Red Cross Emergency response teams met us at the cruise terminal where we were bussed. From there our large group walked out to main roads to get away from traffic jams and were able to get UBER to a hotel. We got in to the hotel at 2 am.

I lost my wallet and my daughters passport, my house keys, my car keys, all of our medications, my shoe. We have been contacted about where we can go to try and ID our luggage and just got through to the hotline to report the things left behind when we ran. I am amazed that the second incident is not being reported at all. Mass hysteria in multiple terminals at the same time with shots heard not only by my sister but multiple people we've spoken to since.

Regardless.. and here is the most important thing. I am ALIVE. My children are ALIVE. My family is ALIVE. The rest of it doesn't matter. People are mourning their loved ones today and they deserve all the support and love we can send them. My family will need counselling, but we have each other.
Thank you if you made it through all of this. I feel like I need to tell it over and over.

I am very happy to hear that you are your family are alive. The need to tell your story over and over is part of the post-traumatic stress (IMO). I wish you, your family, first responders, and every victim affected by this tragedy peace and recovery. Sending love and peace to all who need it right now.

 

[mummabear]

And this brings it right back to the original point that this country is divided. People with differing points of view are starting to really dig their heels in. I know I am and it sounds like others are to, on both sides of issues. You want a cake, photos, etc instead of simply moving on and going to the next business they just force someone that claims to disagree with whatever it is, to do it, against their beliefs.

But you do realise not everyone has access to multiple choices. Some may live in small towns.
It is also about drawing a line so you are happy for bakers to turn people away because of their beliefs, what about doctors? Police? Teachers?
Do you feel all anyone's beliefs should be respected then? Should respect a white supremacists beliefs? And if not, why do you think any other beliefs (where they have an effect on others) are anymore deserving of respect?

 

[bcla]

But you do realise not everyone has access to multiple choices. Some may live in small towns.
It is also about drawing a line so you are happy for bakers to turn people away because of their beliefs, what about doctors? Police? Teachers?
Do you feel all anyone's beliefs should be respected then? Should respect a white supremacists beliefs? And if not, why do you think any other beliefs (where they have an effect on others) are anymore deserving of respect?

It depends on the particular law. I heard of a case in the U.K., where an employee or the owner refused to place a specific message, and a successful discrimination case was brought before a court.

However, in the United States the "slippery slope" argument is usually used, as well as freedom of speech/expression. Certainly denying service or goods based on the customer being in a protected class or on how the product/service will be used based on a protected class is indefensible. If they can make a four-tiered white wedding cake for a straight couple, they can do the same for a mixed-race or same-sex couple. The "slippery slope" is that the business owner may be asked to create something patently objectionable, such as a racist message/symbol.

I think it's a bit stupid. Same-sex marriage is pretty mainstream these days. I'd say just decorate the cake and move on. One of the big cases involved a bakery that had actually made a birthday cake for someone they knew to be a lesbian woman, but they balked when asked to provide a cake for a same-sex wedding reception.

 

[pat fan]

One of the big cases involved a bakery that had actually made a birthday cake for someone they knew to be a lesbian woman, but they balked when asked to provide a cake for a same-sex wedding reception.

I think the difference there was they had no problem making a birthday cake for ANYONE but the wedding cake went against their religious beliefs (not a random belief) by having them participate in a ceremony that went against those religious beliefs. That's all I'll say 'cause I'm pretty sure this will be shut down soon.

 

[mummabear]

religious beliefs (not a random belief)

You see a difference between a "random" belief and a religious one?

 

[gwynne]

I think the difference there was they had no problem making a birthday cake for ANYONE but the wedding cake went against their religious beliefs (not a random belief) by having them participate in a ceremony that went against those religious beliefs. That's all I'll say 'cause I'm pretty sure this will be shut down soon.

I believe in random kindness and tolerance. I hope I would be judged cake-worthy.
How in the heck did this thread devolve into the topic of easily irritated, picky bakers?

 

[bcla]

I think the difference there was they had no problem making a birthday cake for ANYONE but the wedding cake went against their religious beliefs (not a random belief) by having them participate in a ceremony that went against those religious beliefs. That's all I'll say 'cause I'm pretty sure this will be shut down soon.

I guess the slippery slope works both ways. What's to stop someone from providing a product when they know it's going to be used in a religious ceremony or celebration? I think that's a case where the slippery slope should simply be ignored as there is no slippery slope if the business isn't actively participating. I'd say that if the same product is asked for but the owner will or won't provide it based on how a protected class will use it, that's unreasonable and possibly against the law.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

But you do realise not everyone has access to multiple choices. Some may live in small towns.
It is also about drawing a line so you are happy for bakers to turn people away because of their beliefs, what about doctors? Police? Teachers?
Do you feel all anyone's beliefs should be respected then? Should respect a white supremacists beliefs? And if not, why do you think any other beliefs (where they have an effect on others) are anymore deserving of respect?

You can't compare a baker who refuses a specific customization to all customers to a doctor who refuses a standard service to specific patients.

 

[CarolAnn856]

You can't compare a baker who refuses a specific customization to all customers to a doctor who refuses a standard service to specific patients.

You have the logic completely wrong. Just as a doctor can't refuse a standard service to specific patients based on whether they are a certain color, religion, sexual orientation.etc., a baker can't refuse a standard service (baking and decorating a cake) to those same protected classes. Cake baking is a business. The personal opinions of the baker do not legally matter in terms of discrimination. You don't have to like it, but you do have to stop trying to twist it to get around the law.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

You have the logic completely wrong. Just as a doctor can't refuse a standard service to specific patients based on whether they are a certain color, religion, sexual orientation.etc., a baker can't refuse a standard service (baking and decorating a cake) to those same protected classes. Cake baking is a business. The personal opinions of the baker do not legally matter in terms of discrimination. You don't have to like it, but you do have to stop trying to twist it to get around the law.

No, I didn't say the baker can refuse to sell the cake. I believe the baker should be afforded the right to refuse to decorate in a specific way. That's not twisting anything.

 

[bcla]

You have the logic completely wrong. Just as a doctor can't refuse a standard service to specific patients based on whether they are a certain color, religion, sexual orientation.etc., a baker can't refuse a standard service (baking and decorating a cake) to those same protected classes. Cake baking is a business. The personal opinions of the baker do not legally matter in terms of discrimination. You don't have to like it, but you do have to stop trying to twist it to get around the law.

I certainly believe that the cases brought against businesses for flat out refusing business/services to be used in same-sex ceremonies aren't legally defensible. My personal opinion is that a business should just be a business and decorate a cake with two men or two women when asked, as there's nothing that's all that offensive about it. However, there is right of a business to set a limit for what it may or may not agree to do where it would specifically be participating in a message that it finds offensive. Some racist expressions have been defended as having a religious component.